Pharoah's heart

[CHB]

Hi Everyone,

Here are some videos by L Ray Smith and they are the best I have ever heard. There are 9 of them but the last 6, 7, 8, 9 are the best they clear up a lot of questions that have been ask and argued over on this forum about evil and the will of man. I pray everyone will at least listen to them each of them are only about 10 minutes long.

http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=l%20ray%20smith%20free%20will&tnr=21&vid=282719683497&l=591&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fvideos%2Fthumbnail.aspx%3Fq%3D282719683497%26id%3Dc6cfa0075a1d46dafe31ed132afd2a7a%26bid%3DCIG2bnMvVri02A%26bn%3DThumb%26url%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.youtube.com%252fwatch%253fv%253dXOgBWnqVCyo&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DXOgBWnqVCyo&sigr=11amtp7qf&newfp=1&tit=Free+will+%281+of+9%29+L.+Ray+Smith

Wow!!! that is the longest address I have ever seen.   

CHB

[Molly]

Perhaps we have not taken everything that has been given.

This dominion over animals is really interesting, and I think we have lost a lot of knowledge about it over the centuries.  When you see someone like the dog whisperer at work, you know he has tapped into an understanding of man-animal relationship that most of us have lost.

Not that my dog has me wrapped around his little finger or anything.

[micah7:9]

I just wonder in wonderment. Its amazing the thoughts and ideas on man,  just how God is or is not in the very center of ALL the movements of His creation. Should one consider that God is NOT the main force of ALL that goes on, then one gives a quality to God's creation that perhaps,  God, does not have thought or will over the outcome of ALL He has created. If man can manipulate his creator, then we certainly do not have IAM as our covering and salvation.

[Cardinal]

  I have seen times when He pulls back the veil just enough for them to see the Christ in us, and the beastly nature is subdued. But definitely dominion is coming in fulness.....

[lomarah]

I once read an interesting paper on this subject of Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart. I believe it was written by a Jewish man. He talked about the manuscript in the original language (Hebrew) and how the hardening was actually a mutual hardening, not going against Pharaoh's will, but a strengthening of his will... if that makes any sense. 

[Cardinal]

  It makes perfect sense. He strengthens our bands, and reproves us with our own wickedness. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

I just wonder in wonderment. Its amazing the thoughts and ideas on man,  just how God is or is not in the very center of ALL the movements of His creation. Should one consider that God is NOT the main force of ALL that goes on, then one gives a quality to God's creation that perhaps,  God, does not have thought or will over the outcome of ALL He has created. If man can manipulate his creator, then we certainly do not have IAM as our covering and salvation.

Personally I have never seen that we can manipulate God,  but each of us are so unique that God bothers to number the hairs on our head,  our uniqueness also means that we all have  different paths of learning.  Much of learning is not through control. but through action and consequence.   

We always hear "all things are possible" but then we hear how it is impossible that man has a will and can act according to it.  We do and it still does not thwart God being all in all.   It is the nature of things.

Most everyone does not want to be responsible for what they do, especiallly if what we do lands us in trouble.  What better way to avoid it than to blame god, the perfect scape goat.

[micah7:9]

You have that correct, ever since Adam said the "the woman you gave me, she gave it to me." Yep thats us always puttung it off.

[Lefein]

Harmony vs. the divine puppet master.

God does not want toys, he wants friends who choose to love him.  Everyone will choose to love him, in the same way that everyone chooses to love being content, over being distraught.

It does not diminish God's glory one iota if men choose him by will, sooner or later, rather than by grim manipulative force.  There is a difference between ruling by flow that can be soft like a drizzle, or tempestuous like a hurricane when needed, and ruling by omni-dictation of every decision through force, or pre-programmed script that is the inevitable step by step, blink by blink fate of a person.

Personally, I don't see how God could have requited love, or fellowship - if God is merely a ventriloquist, and we are but the dummy.

If we are not dummies in the hand of God the Divine Ventriloquist, then we have a will, choices, and responsibility for them.  If we however, do not have anything like a will, or choices, or responsibility, but are following some sort of pre-programmed script; then God is the Divine Ventriloquist, and we are but dummies.

If God is indeed a ventriloquist -- he is surely a very lonely God.  A castaway on an island in the middle of the sea full of volley balls with faces painted on them.

<Edits made to this post; I forgot that Wilson was a volley ball, not a soccer ball lol>

[jabcat]

I'm going to make a post that I trust all here can find as a middle ground.  If you still see something s/w differently, that's OK, let's just continue to be careful how we express it, so we don't walk over "that line" (Hot Topic).  I'm not even sure my post isn't slightly over the line, so if it is, bring it to my attention, and I'll consider your input on it.  It really is a difficult topic to discuss within set parameters of the guidelines, but I'm trying  .

Willi, referencing your posted J. Preston link, CHB, yours re: L.Ray, and Lefein, re: your post;

I believe all indicate God is in control; 


most, if not all, indicate man is required to make choices; 
we answer for those choices;

I'll add;
I believe God sets the conditions within which we grow, learn, and fulfill His purpose for each of our lives;
as a loving Parent, He provides us with some "space within which to maneuver" so we can strengthen our legs and our decision-making (learning obedience) but He hasn't lost control of His universe, so He sets parameters within which we can maneuver;
when it's His time, and we're faced with His overwhelming love, everyone's choice will be to love Him, to bow before Him and confess His Lordship - some now, the rest later.  When every knee bows and every tongue 'homologeo' (profess, declare openly, speak out freely, profess one's self the worshipper of one, praise, celebrate), that's not a forced event.  It is one brought about according to His timing, at the consummation, as He works all things according to His will;  when all are at the end of self and joyfully proclaim their Redeemer.

There - I've tried to express my beliefs, summarizing main points of different views, while not stepping over the line.  Whew! 

[thinktank]

It does not diminish God's glory one iota if men choose him by will, sooner or later, rather than by grim manipulative force.  There is a difference between ruling by flow that can be soft like a drizzle, or tempestuous like a hurricane when needed, and ruling by omni-dictation of every decision through force, or pre-programmed script that is the inevitable step by step, blink by blink fate of a person.

On the conrary if men choose him by will it gives him so much greater glory, for it magnifies Love and power. Forced will simply magnifies power, the power to rule, even men can accomplish that.

[Beloved Servant]

The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it —                             

The world, and all who live in it — David

If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world —                       

and its fullness are Mine — David

"The earth is the Lord's,
and everything in it." — Paul
                                                                                         

Am I not permitted to do what I choose with what is mine?

                                                                                                     

Is your eye evil because I am good?  — Jesus

[LS]

I once read an interesting paper on this subject of Pharaoh and the hardening of his heart. I believe it was written by a Jewish man. He talked about the manuscript in the original language (Hebrew) and how the hardening was actually a mutual hardening, not going against Pharaoh's will, but a strengthening of his will... if that makes any sense.

  That is how I see it as well.  I think Romans 1:28-32 is one example of how God "turns us over" to the things we have chosen.

Harmony vs. the divine puppet master.

God does not want toys, he wants friends who choose to love him.  ... It does not diminish God's glory one iota if men choose him by will, sooner or later, rather than by grim manipulative force. 

Amen, Lefein. 

If God has scripted everything everyone does, I don't know how these passages in Jeremiah could be true:

Jer 7:31  In the Valley of Ben-hinnom they have built the high place of Topheth to immolate in fire their sons and their daughters, such a thing as I never commanded or had in mind.

Jer 19:5  They have built high places for Baal to immolate their sons in fire as holocausts to Baal: such a thing as I neither commanded nor spoke of, nor did it ever enter my mind.

Jer 32:35  They built high places to Baal in the Valley of Ben-hinnom, and immolated their sons and daughters to Molech, bringing sin upon Judah; this I never commanded them, nor did it even enter my mind that they should practice such abominations.

God did not create those evils ... man did.

[CHB]

Hi All,

God is the greatest influencer, inspirer, advertiser of all time. No one likes the idea that they are being made to do anything, but inspire or influence, now that is different to us. This is what Ray Smith explains in his videos.  Say you are writing a book, because of someone elses experience. You would say they inspired or influenced you to write it. Because of things they did you wrote it but they didn't make you, it is the same with God. Because of the things he puts in our path and the things that influence or inspire us is why we do the things we do. We do nothing without a cause and those causes are already in force. Our human ego will not accept the idea that someone made us do anything.

Ray Smith said he ask this man if his wife did anything to MAKE him love her and the man said "no she doesn't force me to love her".  Ray said, so your wife doesn't do anything that causes you to love her, how would she feel about that. Well, she does this for me or that...{can't remember the exact words here} and that is what I love about her...So, she does do things that make him love her.  Same with God, he doesn't have to MAKE us love him just influences, inspires, and causes circumstances to come our way so eventually we choose the right things.

CHB

[Beloved Servant]

Delight yourself in the LORD and He will give you the desires of your heart. — David


I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart. — Jeremiah

[Lefein]

On the conrary if men choose him by will it gives him so much greater glory, for it magnifies Love and power. Forced will simply magnifies power, the power to rule, even men can accomplish that.

Amen thinktank 

God did not create those evils ... man did.

Amen, Amen.

[Paul Hazelwood]

We are not free from influences, they are all around us, from the wind blowing to the annoying neighbors  But on the other side of this if a man says he beat his wife to death because of her insistant nagging, he is then right that it was the wife who influenced him?

If the man cannot take credit for loving his wife, he certainly doesn't have to own up to bludgening her to death because she wouldn't go get him a beer. 

[Beloved Servant]

We can not look at the speck in someone's eye with a log in our own.
When one looks with a faithful eye, one sees that the whole creation has been put in divine order from the beginning; and it had to be.

For if it were not there would be uttermost chaos:
FOR ALL THINGS ARE HELD TOGETHER BY HIM — Colossians 1:17

Say what you will that you decided what you shall wear today, did not God decide the weather?
Say what you will that you decided what you will eat today, did not God create the plants and animals?
Say what you will that you decided what is good and what is evil, did not God tell you these things first?

[Paul Hazelwood]

We can not look at the speck in someone's eye with a log in our own.
When one looks with a faithful eye, one sees that the whole creation has been put in divine order from the beginning; and it had to be.

For if it were not there would be uttermost chaos:
FOR ALL THINGS ARE HELD TOGETHER BY HIM — Colossians 1:17

Say what you will that you decided what you shall wear today, did not God decide the weather?
Say what you will that you decided what you will eat today, did not God create the plants and animals?
Say what you will that you decided what is good and what is evil, did not God tell you these things first?

Yes, our will does not control the weather.  I have went outside without wearing my jacket.

God created spinach,  I will not eat it cooked.

I have done evil, knowing it was wrong and I suffered the consequenses and of others that I affected, some chose hate, some chose mercy.   God did not cause me to do the evil I did, nor did it enter his mind that I do it.  He did however know I would  and made provision so that I would not remain lost.

Many times I did not take advantage of help at various times, I suffered even longer,  I thank God that his mercy never gave up on me,  but my suffering was my doing and no one elses.


 

[Beloved Servant]

Just specks!
Did God not decide what country you would be born in?
Whether a jacket would even be needed anytime by you?

Just specks!
Did God not decide your likes and dislikes?
Spinach raw or heated?

How do you even know that evil is wrong without Him telling you first?
Split it as you will — it's still a log — divided to specks.

[thinktank]

Just specks!
Did God not decide what country you would be born in?
Whether a jacket would even be needed anytime by you?

Just specks!
Did God not decide your likes and dislikes?
Spinach raw or heated?

How do you even know that evil is wrong without Him telling you first?
Split it as you will — it's still a log — divided to specks.

we all know that God created the world, but it's mans heart who chooses between right and wrong, good and evil, and evil is not God's will, but goodness and mercy are 

[Paul Hazelwood]

Just specks!
Did God not decide what country you would be born in?
Whether a jacket would even be needed anytime by you?

Just specks!
Did God not decide your likes and dislikes?
Spinach raw or heated?

How do you even know that evil is wrong without Him telling you first?
Split it as you will — it's still a log — divided to specks.

I have learned to like green beans by eating them when I didn't want to.   Did I then defy God deciding what I would like or dislike?  no

Did God decide that I would do the evil I did, no,  did he know I would do it,  sure.   Is that controlling him?  no,  did he make provision to hold me accountable so I would learn to never do it again?  yes.

[Paul Hazelwood]

To believers who think God manifests the kind of control that decided that a killer would go into a home and slaughter a family,  you actually have no assurance that it will not be you next.  None.

Maybe you will strangle your wife, maim your children.   Will you teach your children that at any moment God could cause you to turn on them and rip them apart?   Do you teach little ones at church this?
 When you go to bed at night laying beside your wife do you remind her that God could cause you to kill her in her sleep.

Truth is truth, if that's the truth preach it.

[Lefein]

2Pe 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Emphasised word; Temperance

In the CLV the same verses read;

2Pe 1:4 through which have been presented to us the precious and greatest promises, that through these you may become participants of the divine nature, fleeing from the corruption which is in the world by lust.
2Pe 1:5 Now for this same thing also, employing all diligence, in your faith supply virture, yet in virtue knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 yet in knowledge self-control, yet in self-control endurance, yet in endurance devoutness,
2Pe 1:7 yet in devoutness brotherly fondness, yet in brotherly fondness love.
2Pe 1:8 For your possessing these and increasing is constituting you not idle nor yet unfruitful in the recognition of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Temperance in the King James Version shown here as "self-control".

In the Original Greek; verse 2nd Peter 1:6

en de te gnosei ten egkrateian en de te egkrateia ten hupomonen en de te hupomone ten eusebeian.

in yet the knowledge the in-holding(self-control) in yet the in-holding(self-control) the under-remaining(endurance) in yet the under-remaining(endurance) the devoutness.

http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1466

___ ___ ___

It would seem to me based on the inspired texts, that it is very important to our Father that we learn the -virtue- of Self-Control, of which there is no law against it. (Galatians 5:23)

[Beloved Servant]

I can do all this through Him who gives me strength.