Author Topic: Pharoah's heart  (Read 7421 times)

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marcstalkspot

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Pharoah's heart
« on: November 02, 2010, 06:27:38 PM »
            Draw near to God, God will draw near to you.

            God hardened Pharoahs heart.

            Some made of honor some for dishonour.

            If i go out today and help the sick etc, is that God's will for me?

            If I go out and hack off 20 heads with an axe, is that Gods will for me? Am I accountable? Or was it Gods will that I did that?

            Romans 9:19
            One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

            Each of us must give an account of OURSELVES before God.

            Ezekiel 24:14
            "'I the LORD have spoken. The time has come for me to act. I will not hold back; I will not have pity, nor will I relent. You will be judged according to your conduct and your actions, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"

            ROM
            14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
            "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
            and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."f
            16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

     
      I just threw my bible off some innocent persons head.
            Wasn't my fault. Didn't have free will you see. It was God's fault.

         
         OR...I just threw my bible off some innocent persons head. It was my fault, i had the choice to do it or not too, it wasn't Gods fault.

            1Rivulets of waters [is] the heart of a king in the hand of Jehovah, Wherever He pleaseth He inclineth it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 09:16:01 PM by Cardinal »

marcstalkspot

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2010, 06:38:55 PM »
Did Pharoah have a choice?

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Exodus 7:3-4 says, "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs... and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you.

Offline Lefein

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2010, 07:53:59 PM »
Yes, we have a will.

We are capable of rebellion, and rebellion is not something you can force your kids to do -- otherwise they are obeying.  Rebellion, and obedience are mutually exclusive.

Our will cannot defeat God, or his purposes; he has plenty of power and patience to get his way one way, or another; he is not mocked, he is clever enough to harmoniously work through the wills of men to "see it done", an elegant dancer of skill is wiser than a brute who stomps with force.

Our wills, and God's will works in the same way that our swords have no comparison to the flaming blades of the cherubim.  But we have swords none the less, according to my understanding.  If that makes sense.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 08:03:45 PM by Lefein »
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 08:15:16 PM »
We have the ability to reason within any set of circumstances we are in.    That ability to reason may not necessarily change the circumstances.  That ability can change whether your path is one od destruction or life.   A choice that sends you on a path of destruction cannot thwart Gods plan to bring you to reconciliation.  You can continue on a path of destruction until the only choice left to make is one to accept Jesus Christ, it will be your choice from your will and it will be made willingly.

The fact that God already knows what path and choice you will make has no true bearing upon the fact that your will had the ability to make them.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 08:19:24 PM »
I am only going to use the words Free will to make a point, not to use it in order to argue for or against it.


In general the term free will is not a biblical term.   To argue that we do not have free will is unbiblical because you cann argue against having something that scripture does not say we do or don't have.  To argue that we do have free will amounts to the same.

Either way it is an unbibilcal term that carries implications that can be different depending upon what someone thinks free wiil means.


The issue is what is the NATURE of our WILL according to scripture.   And my previous post attempts to explain that nature.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 08:23:13 PM »
 :cloud9: As this is traditionally on here a forbidden "food fight" subject, please tread carefully so as not to incur a locked or deleted thread. Thank you....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

marcstalkspot

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 08:27:10 PM »
Yes, we have a will.

We are capable of rebellion, and rebellion is not something you can force your kids to do -- otherwise they are obeying.  Rebellion, and obedience are mutually exclusive.

Our will cannot defeat God, or his purposes; he has plenty of power and patience to get his way one way, or another; he is not mocked, he is clever enough to harmoniously work through the wills of men to "see it done", an elegant dancer of skill is wiser than a brute who stomps with force.

Our wills, and God's will works in the same way that our swords have no comparison to the flaming blades of the cherubim.  But we have swords none the less, according to my understanding.  If that makes sense.

Didnt God 'force' pharoah to rebel by hardening his heart?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 08:29:09 PM »
Yes, we have a will.

We are capable of rebellion, and rebellion is not something you can force your kids to do -- otherwise they are obeying.  Rebellion, and obedience are mutually exclusive.

Our will cannot defeat God, or his purposes; he has plenty of power and patience to get his way one way, or another; he is not mocked, he is clever enough to harmoniously work through the wills of men to "see it done", an elegant dancer of skill is wiser than a brute who stomps with force.

Our wills, and God's will works in the same way that our swords have no comparison to the flaming blades of the cherubim.  But we have swords none the less, according to my understanding.  If that makes sense.

Didnt God 'force' pharoah to rebel by hardening his heart?



Personally I believe that those descriptions are telling us that we are going to reap what we sow.  If we hate, then the LAW of sowing and reaping causes us to suffer the penalty due for that action.


marcstalkspot

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 08:30:13 PM »
We have the ability to reason within any set of circumstances we are in.    That ability to reason may not necessarily change the circumstances.  That ability can change whether your path is one od destruction or life.   A choice that sends you on a path of destruction cannot thwart Gods plan to bring you to reconciliation.  You can continue on a path of destruction until the only choice left to make is one to accept Jesus Christ, it will be your choice from your will and it will be made willingly.

The fact that God already knows what path and choice you will make has no true bearing upon the fact that your will had the ability to make them.


Good posts Paul, i always like hearing what you have to say,  I agree with this....

marcstalkspot

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 08:31:07 PM »
Yes, we have a will.

We are capable of rebellion, and rebellion is not something you can force your kids to do -- otherwise they are obeying.  Rebellion, and obedience are mutually exclusive.

Our will cannot defeat God, or his purposes; he has plenty of power and patience to get his way one way, or another; he is not mocked, he is clever enough to harmoniously work through the wills of men to "see it done", an elegant dancer of skill is wiser than a brute who stomps with force.

Our wills, and God's will works in the same way that our swords have no comparison to the flaming blades of the cherubim.  But we have swords none the less, according to my understanding.  If that makes sense.

Didnt God 'force' pharoah to rebel by hardening his heart?



Personally I believe that those descriptions are telling us that we are going to reap what we sow.  If we hate, then the LAW of sowing and reaping causes us to suffer the penalty due for that action.

Ok...i understand.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2010, 08:44:10 PM »
Did Pharoah have a choice?

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Exodus 7:3-4 says, "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs... and wonders in Egypt he will not listen to you.

I'm not sure if it is God who hardens Phaoras heart or whether it is Pharoa. It is assumed in this verse that God directly influences Pharoas heart to harden, but did he?
Could it be that God worked indirectly on Pharoa?
i.e this king is a gentile king, has no knowledge of God and no relationship with him, will he humble himself before this God and admit to Moses your God is better than me?

You see the difference here is that God does not show up to Pharoa like he did with /saul/paul
instead he challenged pharoa to a duel, a duel between his servant moses and the best magicians of Egypt. Like a typical king Pharoa does not back down, but hardens his heart in determined effort to usurp the God of Moses.


Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Sounds more like that pharoa hardened his own heart and the lord knew exactly in his eternal wisdom how that would be accomplished, by simply challenging his ego.

This principle is also found in the new testament, where Jesus would challenge the pharisses to be more compassionate, but they would harden their hearts, probably thinking they do not need to be more rightoeus they are sons of Abraham, highly regared priests etc etc




Offline Cardinal

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2010, 08:49:59 PM »
 :cloud9: Please read this link provided by Jabcat pertaining to the "banned topics".......I feel this thread title alone has crossed the fine line, and needs to be adjusted or I will have to delete it. SOME discussion is allowed as long as the "red flags" are not being "waved". Thank you....

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/announcements/free_willall_sovereign_and_trinity_discussions_8565.0.html
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2010, 08:55:58 PM »
HOW can there be a discussion on free will and have the suject on the NO discussion list? Just how are "red flags " to be understood?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Do we have free will or not?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2010, 09:13:40 PM »
 :cloud9: Here's the link spelled out.....by Jabcat

"There have been a couple of questions about it recently, so I thought it appropriate to post a specific "help" on these topics.

It's possible to talk about issues involved;  Who we believe God is, how we believe He works, etc. - especially when focused on specific scriptures.  I.e., "God works all things according to the counsel of His will", etc. 

The main problems come into play when 2 things happen;  1) members start throwing around the specific "free will"/all sovereign, and Trinity terms (which become like red capes to a bull) and  2) members start charging at the red capes, and end up goring each other while their horns have become locked.  They are topics that history has shown this happens with, that they somehow are emotionally charged topics for some.  So it's moderated both tightly and artfully;  as in, discussion is allowed, but in terms of, talking about concepts, situations, and scriptures, without resorting to the too-easy-to-reach-for hot button terms that just send too many straight through the rafters.

It was decided a couple of years ago that direct debate on these topics would not be allowed, and would be moderated very tightly - not letting things even approach the previous level of dischord.

Gary has stated he wants the main focus of the site to be very much focused on UR, and at some point, things really need to be brought back to that center.

There has been a very good spirit on the TM Discussion Forum for some time now, and the intention is, with everyone's help, for it to stay that way."

« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 09:18:30 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2010, 09:54:53 PM »
willieH:  Hello...  :grin:

Though there is a detail or 2 in this with which I might find exception, I pretty much agree with J. Preston Eby (and found this truth, long before I read his account):

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW4.htm#Man%20Is%20A%20Free%20Moral%20Agent

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2010, 10:25:02 PM »


Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?

Offline thinktank

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2010, 10:30:42 PM »


Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?

I doubt it, unless the whale had on board sonar equipment  :laughing7:

It's possible maybe he said "Nineveh" to the fish, but I think the lord directed the fish.

 :2c:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2010, 10:34:03 PM »


Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?


No, but but he could of reasoned in such a way that he stayed in it's belly even longer.  ;)

Offline Lefein

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2010, 10:37:48 PM »
Jonah didn't command the whale, but he certainly ran away from Tarshish in spite of God's command, of course in spite of Jonah's will, God used a fish.
CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2010, 10:43:10 PM »


Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?


No, but but he could of reasoned in such a way that he stayed in it's belly even longer.  ;)

Indeed, Jonah already rejected his destiny but God in his mercy gave him another opportunity to finish the job he had been commanded to do, thank fully Jonah obeyed this time.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2010, 11:02:18 PM »


Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?


No, but but he could of reasoned in such a way that he stayed in it's belly even longer.  ;)



Perhaps the whale could have spit him out anytime the whale willed to do it.
Or, released him out from the other end.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2010, 11:33:18 PM »


Did Jonah tell the whale where to swim?


No, but but he could of reasoned in such a way that he stayed in it's belly even longer.  ;)



Perhaps the whale could have spit him out anytime the whale willed to do it.
Or, released him out from the other end.


So much for dominion over the creaters of the earth.  ;)


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2010, 11:45:21 PM »


Perhaps we have not taken everything that has been given.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2010, 12:01:06 AM »


Perhaps we have not taken everything that has been given.


I can go along with that.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Pharoah's heart
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2010, 12:23:41 AM »


Perhaps we have not taken everything that has been given.

 :cloud9: Amen to that.... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor