Personal Savior?

[Seth]

I think time exists as long as people acknowledge it.  God doesn't need time, just like he doesn't need space.

Nobody said God needs time.

Time is not something that is sitting out there as an absolute.  If consciousness were dependent on time, no one would have post trauatic stress disorder--because that is the brain replaying the past in the present as though it were just happening.

If that were true, that's time, just a different dimension of time, not the lack of it.

Consciousness is not dependent on time. Time is dependent on consciousness. The higher the consciousness, the higher the dimension of time.

As I have said, time is not something that is sitting out there as an absolute. Time is relative.

[sparrow]

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


  I was just thinking..
There is at least one thing we can all come together and agree on.
At least, we KNOW that one  day we WILL know the answers.

Sometimes discussions like this remind me of this game I played at a birthday party once when I was a kid. Someone put a blindfold on you and then passed an object to you and you were supposed to figure out what it was just by touch. (it's not as easy as you may think).
Maybe, that's what we're doing, we're all in various degrees of  blindfoldedness, and we're all passing around an object. The "object" is "time".

But, no matter what, no matter how much or how far we disagree with each other what the "object" is.. we can all find peace in knowing that our blindfolds WILL be removed someday. Perhaps everyone's input will prove to bless us in different ways.
Maybe, for instance, I'm totally wrong about time and we can all have a good laugh about it..
"sparrow remember you were so hanging onto the idea of time??!!!! LOL!!!"
Kind of the way we all laughed about what people thought an object was.
My object was a juicer. I didn't even come CLOSE to figuring out what that thing was. 

well, I'm enjoying the discussion thus far... 

peace ya'll..

 

p.s. I'm pretty sure "blindfoldedness" is not a word.
But that's ok.
made up words are the best kind of words. 

[WhiteWings]

Whitewings said, "Think about your exploding cross vision.There was a 'timeflow' into past and future. So....?"

No, there wasn't. What I saw was SPIRIT exploding into still "frames" of time, with the understanding given on what the SPIRIT was doing/accomplishing in and thru those frames. If there was time in the Spirit, it would have been "locked" into the first "frame". Blessings....

I have the impression this won't have any progress in the next 1000 years...
Cardinal, IMO you are jumping to conclusions. Because you are shown frames there can't be time.
It's like saying when the door is closed Jesus can't enter (but He did)
If you have red shoes that doesn't mean you can't have blue shoes also.
I hope the shoe example clears it up 

  There is no time in His SPIRIT; I did not say there was no time here. As Molly quoted in another post, when the mystery of God is finished, He decreed there would be time no more. Why? So that HEAVEN AND EARTH LINE UP. Blessings.....

That's no answer to my question.
I would like to see the Scripture about no more time. 

[Cardinal]

  you been reading Molly's posts? Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

you been reading Molly's posts? Blessings....

Yes and I also watched a movie. And you?

[Cardinal]

  

[Seth]

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.


  I was just thinking..
There is at least one thing we can all come together and agree on.
At least, we KNOW that one  day we WILL know the answers.

Sometimes discussions like this remind me of this game I played at a birthday party once when I was a kid. Someone put a blindfold on you and then passed an object to you and you were supposed to figure out what it was just by touch. (it's not as easy as you may think).
Maybe, that's what we're doing, we're all in various degrees of  blindfoldedness, and we're all passing around an object. The "object" is "time".

But, no matter what, no matter how much or how far we disagree with each other what the "object" is.. we can all find peace in knowing that our blindfolds WILL be removed someday. Perhaps everyone's input will prove to bless us in different ways.
Maybe, for instance, I'm totally wrong about time and we can all have a good laugh about it..
"sparrow remember you were so hanging onto the idea of time??!!!! LOL!!!"
Kind of the way we all laughed about what people thought an object was.
My object was a juicer. I didn't even come CLOSE to figuring out what that thing was. 

well, I'm enjoying the discussion thus far... 

peace ya'll..

 

p.s. I'm pretty sure "blindfoldedness" is not a word.
But that's ok.
made up words are the best kind of words. 

That's a good way of putting it. 

[Paul Hazelwood]

.

Do you understand what I mean? It's hard to put into words I guess.
(If I'm not making sense, let me know... I'll try to word it differently.)

I understand perfectly and have encountered this as well.   I was told once that evil does not actually exist it is just an illusion of our depraved minds.

I said, ok, but the illusion is on such a grand scale that every single human being will experience it in some form. 

I said to the person that I hope they never have to experience a knife of an attacker piercing your flesh,  because your vision of an illusion will be shown a lie.

[Seth]

Just because you can draw symbolic/spiritual truths from something, doesn't mean that the thing ceases to exist once you've gotten your truth from it. Or that once this world is over, God will have no more use for it.  Do you know what I mean? 

Yes I do. Say for example Person A buys a sheep farm and goes to Person B for advice on what to feed them, or how often to wash them etc etc. And Person B says, "Well actually the scripture says that the Lamb of God is Christ and his followers are his sheep who are all one in him. So since the sheep are people and are one in Christ, your sheep farm doesn't actually exist."

Heh? It's taking something as symbolic and using that argument of itself to prove that the literal does not actually exist. There is a such thing as a literal day, even if they symbolize people that are one in Christ (not that I confirm or deny the interpretation without looking into it).

But days aren't even really the topic of conversation anyway. Time, a nonphysical, not created, nonspatial continuum by which people are aware moment to moment that they even exist. That is the topic. Days as symbols of people does not disprove that.

[WhiteWings]

.

Do you understand what I mean? It's hard to put into words I guess.
(If I'm not making sense, let me know... I'll try to word it differently.)

I understand perfectly and have encountered this as well.   I was told once that evil does not actually exist it is just an illusion of our depraved minds.

I said, ok, but the illusion is on such a grand scale that every single human being will experience it in some form. 

I said to the person that I hope they never have to experience a knife of an attacker piercing your flesh,  because your vision of an illusion will be shown a lie.

I think that chat was an illusion
But if evil is just an illusion then noone will go to hell.
Plus God Himself is also blinded by that illusion because He mentions non existing quite a few times in the Bible.
 

[WhiteWings]

p.s. I'm pretty sure "blindfoldedness" is not a word.

That's an illusion Captain Sparrow.

Merriam-Webster

Main Entry:blind.fold.ed.ness
Function:noun
Inflected Form:-es

 : the quality or state of being blindfolded

It seems even to be good.

My object was a juicer. I didn't even come CLOSE to figuring out what that thing was.

Was it turned on?

[sheila]

 Hi Seth;

   God preceded the beginning or 'time'. And the eternal one

  will still be , at the end of time.I AM

   IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED.....note HE/GOD WAS

   ALREADY PRESENT BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME

   or THE BEGINNING.[or existing outside the realm of time]

       God is not bound by any law..even time..time exists for

    His purposes...and is a created 'thing' subject to Him

   time, as we know it, did not exist until He created it.

    we have been told that this creation is temporal..

   and that an eternal place[creation] is prepared for us.

   when HE bring us into that eternal realm,time as it pertains

     to this temporal creation, will be no more.


   God existed before 'time' began...and He had His own order

   outside or above the realm of time


   It is God that holds authority over time times.set times.

   that day and hour no-one knows but the Father in Heaven

   Daniel 7;25 He will speak against the MOST HIGH

   and oppress His saints...AND TRY TO CHANGE THE SET TIMES

  AND THE LAWS


   the scriptures are full of set times by God...the Jubilee

  signifies our release into our eternal inheritance

   there are instances in the scriptures that testify to spirit

   not being bound in this temporal creation..from walking on

   water[gravity] and  resurrection..what ever makes you think

 that anything in this temporal realm woud exist outside the

  control of HIM? Or that HE not hold authority over

   any'thing'

   HE IS ALL THERE IS

    He makes the sun go backwards..makes it stand still...

   see His total authority?OVER EVERYTHING...

   everything can CHANGE IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE

   He speaks the Word and creates heavens and earth...

   everything is under Him...He reigns over "time" says

   CEASE...YOU SHALL BE NO MORE.

   Do not the scriptures always testify to the 'end'

   Has He not declared the 'end" from the beginning?

    He limits 'time' He plays with 'time' Past future present

   He holds authority over. Past says...Abraham is Dead..

   God says, I AM THE GOD OF THE LIVING...


   Future says..my body will die...God says..He who beleives in

   me shall never die.

   legion says..I know You, Jesus, did you come to torment

   us before the appointed time?  the end...the end of death

   the end of sin.....the end of time..

[Seth]

Hi Seth;

   God preceded the beginning or 'time'. And the eternal one

  will still be , at the end of time.I AM

   IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED.....note HE/GOD WAS

   ALREADY PRESENT BEFORE THE BEGINNING OF TIME

   or THE BEGINNING.[or existing outside the realm of time]

       God is not bound by any law..even time..time exists for

    His purposes...and is a created 'thing' subject to Him

   time, as we know it, did not exist until He created it.

    we have been told that this creation is temporal..

   and that an eternal place[creation] is prepared for us.

   when HE bring us into that eternal realm,time as it pertains

     to this temporal creation, will be no more.


   God existed before 'time' began...and He had His own order

   outside or above the realm of time


   It is God that holds authority over time times.set times.

   that day and hour no-one knows but the Father in Heaven

   Daniel 7;25 He will speak against the MOST HIGH

   and oppress His saints...AND TRY TO CHANGE THE SET TIMES

  AND THE LAWS


   the scriptures are full of set times by God...the Jubilee

  signifies our release into our eternal inheritance

   there are instances in the scriptures that testify to spirit

   not being bound in this temporal creation..from walking on

   water[gravity] and  resurrection..what ever makes you think

 that anything in this temporal realm woud exist outside the

  control of HIM? Or that HE not hold authority over

   any'thing'

   HE IS ALL THERE IS

    He makes the sun go backwards..makes it stand still...

   see His total authority?OVER EVERYTHING...

   everything can CHANGE IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE

   He speaks the Word and creates heavens and earth...

   everything is under Him...He reigns over "time" says

   CEASE...YOU SHALL BE NO MORE.

   Do not the scriptures always testify to the 'end'

   Has He not declared the 'end" from the beginning?

    He limits 'time' He plays with 'time' Past future present

   He holds authority over. Past says...Abraham is Dead..

   God says, I AM THE GOD OF THE LIVING...


   Future says..my body will die...God says..He who beleives in

   me shall never die.

   legion says..I know You, Jesus, did you come to torment

   us before the appointed time?  the end...the end of death

   the end of sin.....the end of time..

You are not paying attention to me Shiela. It shows that you are not really interested in what I am saying. So why bother to respond? You are only thinking about time from a limited human perspective.

It's like two ships passing in the fog. You keep talking past what I actually say. Rather than address what I REALLY think about time, you just revert back to statements which address issues I am not even talking about. That's not a convo, that's you preaching at me without listening. Example: You talk about the beginning of time. I say that there was never a beginning of time. There is only a beginning to eras, seconds, years, units of time, the earth, etc. However, you never address that, you just keep giving me sermons that don't progress the conversation. PROVE to me that time was ever created (not UNITS of time, but time itself). Prove it. Because I can prove to you that time existed before there ever was a "day."

[sheila]

   I will bother to respond...I will testify to God's Glory over all

   created things.

   TIME DOES NOT EXIST APART FROM HIM

   NOTHING EXISTS APART FROM HIM

   Time's existence depends on HIM ALLOWING IT TO REMAIN

   My objective is NOT to change your mind.....Seth

   But as in any good debate..BOTH SIDES PRESENT THEIR CASE

   I do not expect you to budge..do you expect me?

   I am sure we will reach the end of  our 'presentations'

    We will both have adequately presented what we have.


   I do not  veiw it as a competition, but a freedom to

  express both our cases.

[Seth]

   I will bother to respond...I will testify to God's Glory over all

   created things.

   TIME DOES NOT EXIST APART FROM HIM

   NOTHING EXISTS APART FROM HIM

   Time's existence depends on HIM ALLOWING IT TO REMAIN

   My objective is NOT to change your mind.....Seth

   But as in any good debate..BOTH SIDES PRESENT THEIR CASE

   I do not expect you to budge..do you expect me?

   I am sure we will reach the end of  our 'presentations'

    We will both have adequately presented what we have.


   I do not  veiw it as a competition, but a freedom to

  express both our cases.

I do not view it as a competition either. It's just that you are not addressing what I ACTUALLY believe, so your "debate" is not with me in the first place. It is with your own assumptions of what I believe.

Love was never created. You know how I know that? Because God is love, and he was never created. Time was never created. You know how I know that? Because God has always existed, has never been ignorant of his continued existence. That is not time from a human perspective. You may even agree with the concept, and say that isn't time. But ignoring what I believe will not make for a productive convo.

You and I obviously have different viewpoints on what time is in the first place.

[Cardinal]

  Good posts, Sheila........ Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

Is this timeless topic still alive at this time?

[reFORMer]

(Maybe I'm trying to define terminology a little here.)  At least for myself, I'm not a working physicist.  The last I heard, they said they were quite sure (if I remembered the correct number) that at least eleven (11) dimensions exist.  My understanding is a little different because I consider the physical to be only one (1) dimension.  They seem to be describing the physical cosmos, though I can't say if that is true or not.  I'm also not sure what the right language is to describe some of this.  To me a point and a line are not dimensions, but are tools for referencing the world we're in, something like a clock is used to measure time.  Point, line, and, what do they call the 3rd dimension, depth? these have to do with measurement in the physical.  Physicists say the existence of a dimension implies another in which it occurs; like, the physical three dimensions exist in a 4th called time.  That in turn implies another, and so on.  Time is defined in physics as movement through space.  It seems to me that "space/time" is one dimension we sometimes call the universe.  For time to cease the whole universe would no longer exist.  How much of what they're calling an additional six (6) or seven (7) (?) dimensions beyond time have to do with only referencing "the space/time continuum" I don't know for now, though it does seem to possibly be regarding only the physical cosmos.

There exists physical and spiritual substance, each in  its own dimension.  The interface, the realm of the soul, is either being disposed to the spirit or the flesh.  The soul or psyche (thought, will, and emotions) seems to have its own dimension, not quite spirit and not quite flesh, but the result of one or the other substances predominating.

It does seem clear to me from Scripture that always God is beyond everything else that is.  All that exists is in God.  Scripture says of the cosmos it is but the whispers of His ways. (cp., Job 26:14)  He is, "The Source, the Guide and the Goal of everything, " (New English Bible) or, more literally, (I'm using "him" for the "same," the neuter Greek pronoun, auto) "Out of him, through Him, and into Him is the all..." (Romans 11:36, Concordant Literal Translation.)  Not only is everything contained in God, and that He is beyond everything, but He is innermost to all that is.

[Seth]

(Maybe I'm trying to define terminology a little here.)  At least for myself, I'm not a working physicist.  The last I heard, they said they were quite sure (if I remembered the correct number) that at least eleven (11) dimensions exist.  My understanding is a little different because I consider the physical to be only one (1) dimension.  They seem to be describing the physical cosmos, though I can't say if that is true or not.  I'm also not sure what the right language is to describe some of this.  To me a point and a line are not dimensions, but are tools for referencing the world we're in, something like a clock is used to measure time.  Point, line, and, what do they call the 3rd dimension, depth? these have to do with measurement in the physical.  Physicists say the existence of a dimension implies another in which it occurs; like, the physical three dimensions exist in a 4th called time.  That in turn implies another, and so on.  Time is defined in physics as movement through space.  It seems to me that "space/time" is one dimension we sometimes call the universe.  For time to cease the whole universe would no longer exist.  How much of what they're calling an additional six (6) or seven (7) (?) dimensions beyond time have to do with only referencing "the space/time continuum" I don't know for now, though it does seem to possibly be regarding only the physical cosmos.

There exists physical and spiritual substance, each in  its own dimension.  The interface, the realm of the soul, is either being disposed to the spirit or the flesh.  The soul or psyche (thought, will, and emotions) seems to have its own dimension, not quite spirit and not quite flesh, but the result of one or the other substances predominating.

It does seem clear to me from Scripture that always God is beyond everything else that is.  All that exists is in God.  Scripture says of the cosmos it is but the whispers of His ways,  He is, "The Source, the Guide and the Goal of everything, " (New English Bible) or, more literally, (I'm using "him" for the "same," the neuter Greek pronoun, auto) "Out of him, through Him, and into Him is the all..." (Romans 11:36, Concordant Literal Translation.)  Not only is everything contained in God, and that He is beyond everything, but He is innermost to all that is.

It's fascinating isn't it? I think what is interesting is that term: space/time continuum. It is the composite of two things: space (which is volumetric) and time (which is nonspatial). Put the two together and you have the physical universe: space + time.

In Physics, (from what I can remember) this is an important  combination because it establishes Einstien's theory of relativity. He theorized that time was relative and not absolute. Physical space and it's fluxuations have an effect to the observer of time.

Here is an example: If Person A is moving toward a black hole, they will eventually approach the speed of light. To that person, time will function as he has always experienced (until his untimely death). However, as he approaches that speed Person B-Z who are far away from the black hole will see him slow down. So it will appear as if he freezes. Don't ask me all the mathematical reasons as to why, but it all involves E=MC2 to some degree.

But the point is that physical space affects the experience or observation of the events occurring in the continuum of time.

This shows that there are levels and levels upon levels of time, because the observance of events depends on many factors and viewpoints.

Here is the kicker, if God can observe from the point of view of Person A and B simultaneously (which our minds cannot comprehend), does that suggest no time, or a HIGHER power OVER time because the observer (in this case is God) does not depend on the physical universe so that in him contains ALL dimensions of time, rather than NO time. Time is revealed in that God created space itself. As you say: "Not only is everything contained in God, and that He is beyond everything, but He is innermost to all that is."

That is what is so fascinating to me.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Seth...

WillieH, I love you bro. Can we have a conversation without eluding to the idea that those who disagree are blind and unable to see? 

Okay...  ...I don't mean to be offensive... and though I am a writer (written 3+ novels, and in excess of 500 songs & poems), PASSION is found in that writing, and it is not always properly regulated enough by me... 

What I mean to say is that ALL of us are REVEALED in some things, VEILED in others... it is the process of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST...

Thanks for reminding me... 

...willieH 

[Seth]

willieH: Hi Seth...

WillieH, I love you bro. Can we have a conversation without eluding to the idea that those who disagree are blind and unable to see? 

Okay...  ...I don't mean to be offensive... and though I am a writer (written 3+ novels, and in excess of 500 songs & poems), PASSION is found in that writing, and it is not always properly regulated enough by me... 

What I mean to say is that ALL of us are REVEALED in some things, VEILED in others... it is the process of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST...

Thanks for reminding me... 

...willieH 

I think I see what you mean. I guess the scales are coming off all of us. It's good to have brothers...

[Seth]

Molly, Cardinal, Sheila etc.

I just want to say, I agree with you in that there will come a time that we will no longer measure death. Though we may have a fundamental disagreement on time itself, we DO NOT have a disagreement that death shall be no more and therefore cannot be measured. If you see that as timelessness in that your definition of time is the measurement of death. Hey, more power to you. Not trying to change your minds. I just find the topic itself fascinating which why I talk about it. The conversation is like an exploration.

 

[trettep]

My appeal to willieH.  I love you brother.  It seems you been harsh with me and I know it is because you want me to learn something you see as Truth.  I still don't see it brother but want you to know that I love you and care about you and don't want you to build hostility towards me.  I have ignored you a bit (which I hate) but felt a bit inclined to in order to thwart engaging more of it.   That was my perspective and just wanted you to know that.  I'm crazy excited that many here embrace God's Power to save ALL and have the hope that these other things get reconciled between us all.   I have had differences with Seth also but I like to focus on where we agree and build from there and hopefully God will share fruit through us via His Son to give us great light on these issues in mutual edification.

Love to you willie and to the rest of my brothers and sisters here.  I'm delighted to get to have this blessing to share in God's Word with you.

Paul

[sparrow]

p.s. I'm pretty sure "blindfoldedness" is not a word.

That's an illusion Captain Sparrow.

Merriam-Webster

Main Entry:blind.fold.ed.ness
Function:noun
Inflected Form:-es

 : the quality or state of being blindfolded

It seems even to be good.

oh cool. So I didn't make it up.. 

My object was a juicer. I didn't even come CLOSE to figuring out what that thing was.

Was it turned on?
[/quote]

No it was one of those handheld plastic things. lol..

[reFORMer]

I had a dream years ago.  God stretched time around the car we were in so we wouldn't be hit by the train as we crossed the railroad.  Upon awakening, I remembered when we had crossed the railroad, in a hurry to find a doctor.  It made me think such a thing was not only possible, but had actually happened.

On the word of an angel, Phillip went into the desert and caught up to the chariot of, "An Ethiopian eunuch, a potentate of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was over her entire exchequer, who had come, to be worshiping, to Jerusalem." (Acts 8:27, CLT)  Explaining to him how Jesus fulfilled the scroll of Isaiah he was reading, Phillip then baptized the eunuch.  On coming out of the water he was snatched out of the Ethiopians sight by the Spirit and was found three days journey distance from there, at Azotes.  From there he evangelized through the cities all the way to Caesarea. (cp., Acts 8:26-40)  It seems this is a possible example of the "time travel" some scientists accept as genuinely possible, entering hyper-space from one point in space and re-entering normal space at a distant point with almost no time transpiring between exit and re-entry.