Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 31697 times)

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Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #375 on: July 29, 2009, 06:29:09 PM »
TIME is defined concerning EARTH and the goings on upon it... Love/Hate -- War/Peace -- Sowing/Reaping -- Gathering/Casting away...

Hi WillieH

Eccl 3:1 -- to EVERY thing there is a SEASON, and a TIME to EVERY PURPOSE ...UNDER... Heaven...

I think what this verse is saying is that under heaven there is a time to every purpose. However, this does not limit time at all. It simply concerns the time that is under heaven. Seeing that time is the regognition of the order in which moments occur, there IS a time to every purpose under heaven. But this does not exclude that there is a time for every purpose in heaven either. That is just not the point Solomon is making.

If A is the time to everything under heaven, and B is the time to every purpose IN heaven, that Solomon confirms A does not mean he denies B. To deny the latter, Solomon would have said: "There is a time to every purpose under heaven, and no time to any purpose in heaven." But that is not what he said. In fact, the Bible shows us that by order of sequence, God CREATED the heavens and the earth. That was a time to a Godly purpose. As you said, heaven is all around us. God created light, and day and night and the earth and all the beasts while in heaven, because heaven just means He is in a HIGH (which is why the word for "sky" is used) position.

These show that even IN heaven (where God always is, because he didn't get a ladder and climb down from heaven to create anything) there was an order to which God created all things, which themselves are lower than heaven by their nature. In other words, there was a time to God's purpose in heaven, which is why we have an earth in the first place.

Mucho love brother. We may just have different perspectives.  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:



« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 09:07:14 PM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #376 on: July 29, 2009, 06:35:14 PM »
Seth, I think your doing fine bro.  Without Time there is no ORDER.  And yet Jesus says that He is the Alpha and the Omega (a reference to the time measurement of the Kosmos - Greek).  That is a reference to ORDER.  God thought it important that His Child be FIRST of His brethren.  We can just toss that out the window if in the realm of Heaven everything is timeless.  We couldn't then call Him the firstborn then could we? - no.  So don't be swayed by timeless speak.  God obviously wants us to embrace TIME.  In timelessness there can be no such thing as SEQUENCE.

Paul

I agree.  :thumbsup:

1 Cor 14:40
Let all things be done decently and in order.


Sequence is automatic, and order is pleasing to God. Ours is not a God of either chaos or or a frozen stasis. Let it be done in order. Order is GOOD, so I would have no reason to believe it would be lacking in the heavenlies.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #377 on: July 29, 2009, 06:44:18 PM »
  Paul,

   It most certainly does. John 8;58

    I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, 'before Abraham

    was born,I am "

      The eternal realm is a whole different ballgame,people.

   Totally different setup  . When what is has already been,

  and past present and future are all plaited togather..

   I'm afraid your'e going to be hard put to what the

   proper sequence order is  relative to time when there is no

   end and there is no beginning.


    What time is it when past present and future is one?

   It is called eternity....and time is no more.

                          Sheila

Sheila,if anything can be first after this world is ended then that means TIME is present.  You forget that in order for there to be order or sequence there must be Time.

Days, months, years, minutes, seconds, hours, etc... are just measurements OF time.   Without time there is no FIRST, LAST, SECOND, ETERNITY, etc..

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #378 on: July 29, 2009, 07:12:34 PM »
Quote
What time is it when past present and future is one?

   It is called eternity....and time is no more.

                          Sheila

Yes.  Or another way of putting it--we are no longer bound by it.

Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #379 on: July 29, 2009, 07:18:54 PM »

  and what will you do with your time sequence,

    when the first is the last? In the I AM.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #380 on: July 29, 2009, 07:48:00 PM »
2 Peter 3:8-9  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.   The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

All measurements of time.
The blue one however hints towards a is/now state.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #381 on: July 29, 2009, 08:03:21 PM »

  when the past is present[those that have died or passed away

   are alive] And the future is present[those that come and go

   after you pass ,are alive and present]WHAT TIME IS IT?

   what kind of sequence an order of time is that?


    Is He a God of order, most certainly.


   when one day is as a 1000 years and 1000 years as one day

  seems time gets  warped at best. Also note, He is dealing

  with the death realm [perish]


   but we will not be in time when we are in Him..we will dwell

    in GOD, not time. we live and move and breathe IN HIM

  not time

  John 1;18  No man hath seen God at any TIME..

 the only begotton son,which is in the bosom of the Father,

 he hath declared him.


  dwelling in time, in this realm is but a 'token' of the LIFE

 that is and dwells in the ETERNAL ONE..


   The SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE can NOT be defined by time

     

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #382 on: July 29, 2009, 08:03:39 PM »
2 Peter 3:8-9  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.   The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

All measurements of time.
The blue one however hints towards a is/now state.

The blue proves not the LACK of time but the relativity of time to God versus man.

If otherwise, Peter would have said "be not ignorant about this, with God, there is no time." He didn't say that but people do force that meaning into his words. If anything, Peter CONFIRMS time with God, just that it is relative.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #383 on: July 29, 2009, 08:09:15 PM »
Quote
The SPIRIT WITHOUT MEASURE can NOT be defined by time

Sheila, firstly nobody says that the SPIRIT is defined by time. The Spirit is defined by God. However, Peter would have some 'splaining to do if the proper teaching is that there is no time with God, and he denies that to speak of God according to the relativity of time.

Secondly, NOBODY DWELLS IN TIME. Time is NONSPATIAL continuum. Nonspatial means no volume, no height, no width, and NO LINE. Time is the RECOGNITION OF ORDER as in moments that occur after moments. That there is a HIGHER realm of time, in that it is experienced from a mind able to observe on an infinitely higher level, does not equate to NO time.

If there was no time with God, Peter would have just come out and said it.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #384 on: July 29, 2009, 08:14:50 PM »
Seth,
I'm NOT claiming God lives in a timeless state.

I'm still in debate with myself what 1 day=1000 years and 1000 years=1 day means.
Is it just stating the same thing twice?
Or
Are it two different things? So meaning God's time goes 1000's times faster AND slower as ours.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #385 on: July 29, 2009, 08:17:11 PM »

   I don't think so. I think,in fact it proves that time

  is irrelative to God and not something that He can accurately

  be defined with. I thing time becomes distorted with God

   and looses its function as a measurement, where He is

   concerned.

   And that He only used it as it pertains to us in this realm,

   and when we enter into the eternal ;time will pass away and

   be no more.

   Down here, we pass away and are no more..up there, time

  passes away and is no more

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #386 on: July 29, 2009, 08:17:23 PM »
Sheila,

I have totally zero idea what "we will dwell in GOD" means :sigh:
I try to picture it in my head but I can't. So....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #387 on: July 29, 2009, 08:20:33 PM »
Seth,
I'm NOT claiming God lives in a timeless state.

Yes, I know, I was just picking up on what you were saying, because I was just thinking about that verse when I saw your post.

Quote
I'm still in debate with myself what 1 day=1000 years and 1000 years=1 day means.
Are it two different things? So meaning God's time goes 1000's times faster AND slower as ours.


Well to be accurate, Peter does not say one day IS a thousand years. He says one day is AS (in the manner of) a thousand years. Peter is not saying that one day IS a thousand years, but that God does not necessarily experience a thousand years as a thousand years like we do (unless he wants to). To him a thousand years can be in the manner of just a day, so that while we think he is slack, we only think that way because we have a different experience of time.

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #388 on: July 29, 2009, 08:21:35 PM »
Quote
The blue proves not the LACK of time but the relativity of time to God versus man.

Don't use that word.  It sets my teeth on edge.

Peter is just trying to give us ants an idea of how big God is.

But don't you think it is possible tor us to be free from time some day?

That is, unbound from the linear nature of time.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #389 on: July 29, 2009, 08:22:28 PM »

   I don't think so. I think,in fact it proves that time

  is irrelative to God and not something that He can accurately

  be defined with. I think time becomes distorted with God

   and looses its function as a measurement, where He is

   concerned.

You think that but Peter doesn't confirm it for you. God measures a thousand years as if it were a day. That God has practical contact with time is confirmed by Peter. That He has practical contact with it on a much higher level is also confirmed. That there is NO time with God is NOT confirmed by Peter.




« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 08:38:46 PM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #390 on: July 29, 2009, 08:23:25 PM »
Quote
The blue proves not the LACK of time but the relativity of time to God versus man.

Don't use that word.  It sets my teeth on edge.

Peter is just trying to give us ants an idea of how big God is.

But don't you think it is possible tor us to be free from time some day?

That is, unbound from the linear nature of time.

Molly, we are NOT bound by time in the first place. The only thing we are bound by is our condition of limited mind.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #391 on: July 29, 2009, 08:34:01 PM »
Quote
The blue proves not the LACK of time but the relativity of time to God versus man.

Don't use that word.  It sets my teeth on edge.

Peter is just trying to give us ants an idea of how big God is.

But don't you think it is possible tor us to be free from time some day?

That is, unbound from the linear nature of time.

Molly, we are NOT bound by time in the first place. The only thing we are bound by is our condition of limited mind.


Tell that to your boss the next time your late for work.


Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #392 on: July 29, 2009, 08:35:17 PM »
LOL, I tried it, and all my boss had to go on is his watch.  :HeartThrob:

Oh yeah, and the fact that I am not God.  :laughing7:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #393 on: July 29, 2009, 08:35:35 PM »
LOL, I tried it, and all my boss had to go on is his watch.  :HeartThrob:

Oh yeah, and the fact that I am not God.  :laughing7:


 :laughing7:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #394 on: July 29, 2009, 08:40:12 PM »
You think that but Peter doesn't confirm it for you. God measures a thousand years as if it were a day. That God experiences time is confirmed by Peter, that he experiences it on a higher level is also confirmed. That there is NO time with God is NOT able to be confirmed by Peter.

God experiences time agreed.
But that doesn't mean He is bound by time.
I'm searching for a nice picture I saw 2 weeks ago that explains this whole concept. No luck so far.
What is time/eternity for God is linear like our time. His time is also exactly as fast as ours.
But additionally He can travel in time. So in that linear time He can be whereever He desires to be.
Make a jump of a second. Or a jump of a billion years. Back and forward.
So the 1000 year verse perhaps says that in Gods realm/possibilities time can move at any desired speed.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #395 on: July 29, 2009, 08:44:29 PM »
You think that but Peter doesn't confirm it for you. God measures a thousand years as if it were a day. That God experiences time is confirmed by Peter, that he experiences it on a higher level is also confirmed. That there is NO time with God is NOT able to be confirmed by Peter.

God experiences time agreed.
But that doesn't mean He is bound by time.
I'm searching for a nice picture I saw 2 weeks ago that explains this whole concept. No luck so far.
What is time/eternity for God is linear like our time. His time is also exactly as fast as ours.
But additionally He can travel in time. So in that linear time He can be whereever He desires to be.
Make a jump of a second. Or a jump of a billion years. Back and forward.
So the 1000 year verse perhaps says that in Gods realm/possibilities time can move at any desired speed.

Agreed with the blue portion, and the rest confirms HOW that time is NOT the binding factor. Time is always ASSUMED to be something that binds us, but it is actually our own lack of power and ascension that binds us, not time itself.

Even if God jumps back and forth in time (if it's possible, who knows, I entertain it as possible), but even if God does that, there is an order to it. And even if he experiences ALL moments at the same time, according to his level of time, he does that moment to moment according to HIS OWN observations.... it is still all moment to moment....just on different levels.

God is not frozen, so there is a flow to his experience, which is GOOD. God tells us that he WANTS order. Sequence is GOOD, even if it happens on levels that our minds cannot comprehend.



Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #396 on: July 29, 2009, 08:51:00 PM »


Eternity, the measured speed of God.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #397 on: July 29, 2009, 09:10:55 PM »
  Paul,

   It most certainly does. John 8;58

    I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, 'before Abraham

    was born,I am "

      The eternal realm is a whole different ballgame,people.

   Totally different setup  . When what is has already been,

  and past present and future are all plaited togather..

   I'm afraid your'e going to be hard put to what the

   proper sequence order is  relative to time when there is no

   end and there is no beginning.


    What time is it when past present and future is one?

   It is called eternity....and time is no more.

                          Sheila

 :cloud9: AMEN, Sheila.......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #398 on: July 29, 2009, 09:20:30 PM »


Eternity, the measured speed of God.

Could be. We just need to wonder....is God aware of his own state of remaining in continuance? If so, His awareness also CONTINUES with him. He is able to measure always, his continued existence forever. He is able to estimate that he will always be in existence. That is time; it is GOD's time (his)moment to (his)moment. I think there is some belief on this thread that OUR time is the ONLY time (as though there is some absolute standard and no relativity), and therefore since God has power over OUR time, that it renders time itself obsolete. I think that is a jumping to conclusions.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #399 on: July 29, 2009, 09:25:49 PM »
Quote
proper sequence order is  relative to time when there is no

   end and there is no beginning.

Sequence does not require and end or a beginning. That is the very concept and definition of perpetuity. That which is perpetual may have no end and no beginning yet STILL be sequentially perpetual.

Even perfect stillness is sequential if the condition of the observer is AWARE of the stillness. Remove awareness, and THAT is when you remove time because then there are no moments to observe even in perfect stillness.