Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 34521 times)

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Online Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #350 on: July 29, 2009, 04:22:26 AM »
well, I am sorry if you do not feel you can exist/live

  outside the realm of time.


It's just that I see a difference between our time and God's time.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #351 on: July 29, 2009, 04:37:32 AM »
What's the difference?
Sorry if I was absent at that time you mentioned it.

Online Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #352 on: July 29, 2009, 04:41:28 AM »
What's the difference?
Sorry if I was absent at that time you mentioned it.

I definitely mentioned it.  :HeartThrob:

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #353 on: July 29, 2009, 05:59:40 AM »
Seth,  you are making perfect sense, bro.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #354 on: July 29, 2009, 06:05:42 AM »
There ya go Seth.
Two are a witness.

Online Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #355 on: July 29, 2009, 06:22:53 AM »
There ya go Seth.
Two are a witness.

 :laughing7:

Two's a witness, three's a crowd.

Quote from: sparrow
Seth,  you are making perfect sense, bro.

Thanks Sparrow. I think we are coastin' on the same wavelength.  :HeartThrob:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #356 on: July 29, 2009, 06:39:02 AM »
Hmm...
Three, therefore, stands for that which is solid, real, substantial, complete, and entire.

All things that are specially complete are stamped with this number three.

God's attributes are three: omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence.

There are three great divisions completing time--past, present, and future.

Just a reference: http://philologos.org/__eb-nis/


Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #357 on: July 29, 2009, 06:41:11 AM »
There ya go Seth.
Two are a witness.

 :laughing7:

Two's a witness, three's a crowd.

Quote from: sparrow
Seth,  you are making perfect sense, bro.

Thanks Sparrow. I think we are coastin' on the same wavelength.  :HeartThrob:

:Peace2:


Wait.  :sigh: I don't think wavelengths are part of eternity.. are they?  :CryBaby:
lol...

 :happygrin:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #358 on: July 29, 2009, 06:42:59 AM »
I dunno Sparrow, let's ask Seth.   :dontknow:

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #359 on: July 29, 2009, 06:51:53 AM »
15That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

That's a little cryptic.



"hath been"

"is to be"

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Past and future uses the same word with a few qualifiers thrown in --hâyâh--I AM.

Both past and future...

"is now"

H3528
כּבר
kebâr
keb-awr'
From H3527; properly extent of time, that is, a great while; hence long ago, formerly, hitherto: - already, (seeing that which), now.


H3527
כּבר
kâbar
kaw-bar'
A primitive root; properly to plait together, that is, (figuratively) to augment (especially in number or quantity, to accumulate): - in abundance, multiply.



This is starting to spook me.  :mshock:


This sounds a little cozier, if not as metaphysically accurate--

15 Everything that now exists has already been.
      And what is coming has existed before.
      God will judge those who treat others badly.


« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 06:58:46 AM by Molly »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #360 on: July 29, 2009, 06:53:33 AM »
THAT'S FANTASTIC !

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #361 on: July 29, 2009, 07:01:21 AM »
15That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

That's a little cryptic.



"hath been"

"is to be"

H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Past and future uses the same word with a few qualifiers thrown in --hâyâh--I AM.

Both past and future...

"is now"

H3528
כּבר
kebâr
keb-awr'
From H3527; properly extent of time, that is, a great while; hence long ago, formerly, hitherto: - already, (seeing that which), now.



This is starting to spook me.  :mshock:


This sounds a little cozier, if not as metaphysically accurate--

15 Everything that now exists has already been.
      And what is coming has existed before.
      God will judge those who treat others badly.






It is assurance that Gods love cannot fail anyone.    We are inherant to God and we are experiencing the process to perfection.   This is the only way it can be, because thats how God expands.

 Ec 3:19 For the destiny of the sons of humanity And the destiny of the beast, It is one destiny for them; As death is for this one, so is death for that one, And one spirit is for all; There is no advantage for the human over the beast, For the whole is vanity.


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #362 on: July 29, 2009, 07:07:25 AM »
 :cloud9: Amazing, isn't it Molly?  :winkgrin:  Blessings.....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #363 on: July 29, 2009, 07:08:42 AM »
Past and future is somehow being plaited together into the now by I AM--the verb, to be?

We have an abundance of time--wow, in the moment.  I can relax.  :Sparkletooth:
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 07:20:32 AM by Molly »

Online Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #364 on: July 29, 2009, 07:20:53 AM »
We have an abundance of time.  I can relax.  :Sparkletooth:


abundance
1 : an ample quantity : profusion
2 : affluence, wealth
3 : relative degree of plentifulness <low abundances of uranium and thorium H. C. Urey>

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #365 on: July 29, 2009, 07:21:26 AM »
Past and future is somehow being plaited together into the now by I AM--the verb, to be?

We have an abundance of time.  I can relax.  :Sparkletooth:


That's when real love can explode.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.



Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #366 on: July 29, 2009, 07:32:47 AM »

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #367 on: July 29, 2009, 07:45:44 AM »
willieH: Hi brother S... :hithere:

I truly do not mean this post to be arguementative, just a differing view of the same entity -- "time"

Time doesn't really ever matter. Does time matter when God is all in all?

The problem I have is the word "when" above... WHEN God is, ...is NOW always (omnipresent geographically, realm wise, and both In or Out of HEAVEN)...

So accordingly He has ALWAYS been ALL in ALL (in every "when")... He does not morph from one thing to another for He is ALWAYS PERFECT, regardless of the existences (ordained of Him) of temporal entites such as TIME...  :happygrin:  Which is the realm in which WE "now" exist...

In only matters if we devote consideration to it. So in that sense, no. Time impartial. It is just the continuum wherein sequential moments are known to occur
.

IMO "sequential moments KNOWN to occur" is stated from OUR "time-bound"  position, not His... for He IS, no matter what or "when" we percieve Him

And concerning SEQUENCE, He named the END from the BEGINNING, yet WE move from beginning to end... whatupwidat?  :laughing7:  He designed the entire SEQUENCE and began at the END in designing it, then made its "progression" START from where HE ENDED...  :laughing7: Isaiah 46:10

His FOREKNOWLEDGE and SOVEREIGNTY are not bound by FINITE parameters... one of which entails a "SEQUENCE"... (a sequence is an order finding ...one thing following another)... He created "SEQUENCE" by declaring the END from the BEGINNING, from a position which has neither [ETERNAL].  (JMH-Observation)

If that matters, it is only in the eye of the beholder. I believe, and have found agreement, that progression will occur in the heavenlies, that action and process will occur, not a continual frozen state of "now."

The state of "NOW" in HEAVENLY perspective (as I see scripture), is in opposition to this realm... ALL that occurs within TIME outside of CHRIST is destined for the scrap pile (1 Cor 3:11-15), including TIME... the HEAVENLY "progression" (if indeed it does have one) of NOW cannot be determined by OUR FINITE observations or imposed parameters from that position...

We might observe Heaven with "finite" and "unaided eyes" and find it FROZEN --  :dontknow:  Who is to say? 

But if GOD should open those "eyes" an entirely NEW observation of NOW could be availed...  Just as other worlds in the Universe, are likely inhabited by beings, and animals completely DIFFERENT from our experience here, ...as well as other entities and things, which we might not even be ABLE to behold with our Earthly TIME-BOUND, FINITE  EYES (seeing God make no 2 snowflakes alike --  :laughing7:) ...NOTHING is impossible with GOD...

Concerning the "Heavenlies" -- ANGELS DO exist, yet we cannot SEE them... GOD exists yet we cannot SEE Him... JESUS exists, and even though He came here for a "time" and (though that "time" is over) yet LIVES, ...we still cannot SEE Him either...  :dontknow:

I guess we could argue this until (however) it really IS actually revealed to ALL of us, but for now, this is how I "see" it. 

Just as I cannot see (aside from the obedience of GOD [submission to the WORD] in this realm), ANYTHING that actually IS as it IS in that HEAVENLY realm, ...I cannot speak about HEAVENLY absolutes (i.e. a form of "Heavenly time" is or IS NOT existent) from this Earthly plane, and FINITE existence...

For I cannot see or hear or BE, within the Heavenly realm to witness what IS or IS NOT there...  I can only deduce from Scripture, that JESUS noted BELIEF in the realm of the HEAVENLY even for a MASTER of the Scriptures, is not within (beyond) the capacity of that "master"...

There is a matter of STILLNESS noted in Scripture... For GOD stated:

Psalm 46:10  "be STILL and KNOW that I am GOD"...  So "knowing GOD", has STILLNESS attached to it...

Mark 4:39  JESUS said to the (in motion, chaotic) storm:  "Peace, BE STILL"... So a PEACE also involves a STILLNESS...  Which is quite  hard to gain in this life... for most are hardly "stationary" concerning ANYTHING...  :sigh:

Ex 14:13  MOSES instructed:  "stand STILL and SEE the Salvation of YHVH" -- Which means in order to observe this, we must be STILL...  :dontknow:

Job 37:14 -- To see His wondrous works we must be STILL

Job 34:17 -- all flesh perish together? How can that be? Maybe from a STILL point of view...

It is in STILLNESS of mind and circustance, that the HEART can hear what GOD calls in the Scriptures: 

1 Kings 19:12  a STILL small voice! (HIS)

I did a study on another forum a while back about my beliefs about "TIME"...  maybe I will post it... I believe that it explains the ANCIENT appearance of the Earth, and the STARS... also the enigma's such as the Dinosaurs... which NO one can seem to explain... especially from the chronology of the "FIRST day" of Creation to the present... involving only some 6K years...  :dontknow:

Geology argues MILLIONS even BILLIONS of "years" (and within that the foolishness of  evolution is born)... and Christianity argues for a YOUNG Earth (which cannot explain the Dinosaurs, fossilization, strata layers, etc)... I think it is both... it just takes EYES to see what took place...  :laughing7:

:Peace: brother...

...willieH  :icon_king:

See Willie is changing things up again.  He says that God is currently ALL in ALL.  But that is NOT true is it?  Let's look at scripture to PROVE this point:

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Willie, we just can't IGNORE the word "WHEN" here.  The matter concerning ALL in ALL is regarding God's Spirit.  God's Spirit is NOT currently ALL in ALL.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #368 on: July 29, 2009, 07:48:28 AM »
Paul,

  We are not of this world.

Sheila, we are not of this world has nothing to do with the fact of time.  I'm was a being in this world and I will be a being when I'm not of this world.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #369 on: July 29, 2009, 07:53:31 AM »
Seth, I think your doing fine bro.  Without Time there is no ORDER.  And yet Jesus says that He is the Alpha and the Omega (a reference to the time measurement of the Kosmos - Greek).  That is a reference to ORDER.  God thought it important that His Child be FIRST of His brethren.  We can just toss that out the window if in the realm of Heaven everything is timeless.  We couldn't then call Him the firstborn then could we? - no.  So don't be swayed by timeless speak.  God obviously wants us to embrace TIME.  In timelessness there can be no such thing as SEQUENCE.

Paul

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #370 on: July 29, 2009, 08:05:09 AM »
Right! In timelessness, there can be NO sequence.
That pretty much blows "time is no more" out of the water.


I do not think that we will know God all at once...
I think it will take FOREVER to explore Him.
If there is no time, there is no sequence, no progression, no exploring.
The more we explore Him, the more we will anticipate exploring even MORE of Him.



"The further up and further in you go, the bigger everything gets. The inside is larger than the outside." (from THE LAST BATTLE)

Seems pretty exciting to me.
The vastness of God.
Eternity... to explore Him.
the further up and further in you go, the bigger everything gets...

well just a thought I had.. 
figured I'd share.. :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #371 on: July 29, 2009, 09:29:46 AM »
willieH: Howdy brother Seth...  :icon_jokercolor:

The Lord brought to mind the breakdown of activity within TIME as described in Ecclesiastes... which I am sure you are quite familiar with...

There is an interesting twist within though, as it goes on to say that there is a "time" for this and a "time" for that, etc... Love -- hate, War -- peace, sowing -- reaping, etc...

Notice how this dialogue begins:

Eccl 3:1 -- to EVERY thing there is a SEASON, and a TIME to EVERY PURPOSE ...UNDER... Heaven...

Several PIVOTAL observational words are in this verse:

EVERY -- meaning or pertinent to ALL which particpate in the following...
SEASON -- Seasons BEGIN and END...
TIME -- the little pesky term we see from different angles is encased herein in relation to "SEASON"...

EVERY PURPOSE -- PURPOSES are accomplished and also BEGIN and END

and last but certainly not LEAST...

UNDER Heaven -- ahh... NOT IN Heaven... UNDER Heaven...

TIME is defined concerning EARTH and the goings on upon it... Love/Hate -- War/Peace -- Sowing/Reaping -- Gathering/Casting away...

Tired, gotta go... maybe edit this post tomorrow...  :laughing7:

Peace bro...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #372 on: July 29, 2009, 04:55:05 PM »
Right! In timelessness, there can be NO sequence.
That pretty much blows "time is no more" out of the water.


I do not think that we will know God all at once...
I think it will take FOREVER to explore Him.
If there is no time, there is no sequence, no progression, no exploring.
The more we explore Him, the more we will anticipate exploring even MORE of Him.



"The further up and further in you go, the bigger everything gets. The inside is larger than the outside." (from THE LAST BATTLE)

Seems pretty exciting to me.
The vastness of God.
Eternity... to explore Him.
the further up and further in you go, the bigger everything gets...

well just a thought I had.. 
figured I'd share.. :HeartThrob:

The thing that is interesting is that others here seem to believe Eternity is only before and after this world and that only in this world is there Time.  They CARVE out this world (Kosmos) and say Eternity is timelessness but in this world we have Time.  They ingore the fact that this world is a PART OF Eternity.

Paul

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #373 on: July 29, 2009, 05:04:12 PM »


Eternity is a canvas that love paints scenery on.


Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #374 on: July 29, 2009, 05:38:07 PM »
  Paul,

   It most certainly does. John 8;58

    I tell you the truth, Jesus answered, 'before Abraham

    was born,I am "

      The eternal realm is a whole different ballgame,people.

   Totally different setup  . When what is has already been,

  and past present and future are all plaited togather..

   I'm afraid your'e going to be hard put to what the

   proper sequence order is  relative to time when there is no

   end and there is no beginning.


    What time is it when past present and future is one?

   It is called eternity....and time is no more.

                          Sheila