Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 22739 times)

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SQ

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #325 on: July 29, 2009, 12:59:31 AM »
 Time passes...and we know what happens to that which is

  passing away. So, either God must pass away in time..

  or time must pass away in GOD...

   and it is the latter..

   either God is eternal or time is eternal



  Can God outlast time? He has, He is   He shall
I believe this also sheila God will outlast time. :thumbsup:

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #326 on: July 29, 2009, 12:59:44 AM »
This is going on forever

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #327 on: July 29, 2009, 01:00:02 AM »
I'm still lost on the topic of discussion.
If you please, could someone please present the actual premise?
Thanks in advance.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #328 on: July 29, 2009, 01:01:02 AM »
Let's see...my first foray into this timeless, unending, my-how-time-flies-when-you're-having-fun discussion - why it's one for the ages!   :bigGrin:

God never ends.
His love never ends.
His mercy never ends.
Our temporal life ends.
Then we will take on immortality.
Our existence with Him will never end.
When He becomes All in All, will time really matter?
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #329 on: July 29, 2009, 01:09:23 AM »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #330 on: July 29, 2009, 01:16:57 AM »
Let's see...my first foray into this timeless, unending, my-how-time-flies-when-you're-having-fun discussion - why it's one for the ages!   :bigGrin:

God never ends.
His love never ends.
His mercy never ends.
Our temporal life ends.
Then we will take on immortality.
Our existence with Him will never end.
When He becomes All in All, will time really matter?

Time doesn't really ever matter. Does time matter when God is all in all? In only matters if we devote consideration to it. So in that sense, no. Time impartial. It is just the continuum wherein sequential moments are known to occur. If that matters, it is only in the eye of the beholder. I believe, and have found agreement, that progression will occur in the heavenlies, that action and process will occur, not a continual frozen state of "now."


Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #331 on: July 29, 2009, 01:20:30 AM »
I don't think we'll give a darn, except to rejoice each day that it will never end.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #332 on: July 29, 2009, 01:21:30 AM »
But I'm not there yet, so what do I know?  :icon_joker:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #333 on: July 29, 2009, 01:23:12 AM »
"continual frozen state of 'now.'"

Thank you, Seth, if you please, could that be explained?



Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #334 on: July 29, 2009, 01:24:50 AM »
I was gon'na ask him if I was being insulted... :laughing7:

Seth, I thought of that old Andy Griffith episode where the Darlings were in town.  Barney was giving some high falootin' schpiel about something, and Mr. Darling looked at Andy and said, "Is he one of ours?".  Andy assured him he was OK.  Mr. Darling said "I just want to know where I stand".  :happy3:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #335 on: July 29, 2009, 01:31:05 AM »
I don't think we'll give a darn, except to rejoice each day that it will never end.

Me either

Quote
"continual frozen state of 'now.'"

Thank you, Seth, if you please, could that be explained?

I think I did. I explained what "now" was. Now is the present moment. Each present moment has no action or progress OF ITSELF. It is in the procession of moment (now) to moment (now) that we understand perpetual existence to be. As long as we live, we percieve our existence to last. Our perception comes as each moment to each moment continues. Freeze the moment. That frozen state is the present which is followed by nothing. That is why I compare "now" to a frozen frame. If no moment follows the present moment we become unconscious to continued existence.

Even if it were possible to see all now moments on earth through history all at once, we would be working in a higher dimension of time, because time is relative. We would be conscious of what we are seeing, moment to moment. No matter how God sees our time, he is conscious...moment....to moment.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #336 on: July 29, 2009, 01:41:11 AM »
does that refute "I AM?"

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #337 on: July 29, 2009, 01:44:46 AM »
I keep bugging Jesus about all of this.


are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?are we there yet?

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #338 on: July 29, 2009, 01:50:46 AM »
does that refute "I AM?"

No. Do you know what "relativity" is?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #339 on: July 29, 2009, 02:03:41 AM »
A thing dependent on another?

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #340 on: July 29, 2009, 02:16:13 AM »
A thing dependent on another?

A thing? Not exactly. The state of being determined by, in quality of nature, to something else. So, the observation of time would depend on the conditions of the observer.

God's obervation of moment to moment, does not depend on our own, because his consciousness is HIGHER. That is why I told you that if God can freeze OUR time (as Sheila stated), He would still be conscious moment to moment, and would not be frozen with us, because His observation of time is not dependant on our own, but upon his own condition, which is his own mind. This is why I speak of higher dimensions of time, rather than absence of it.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #341 on: July 29, 2009, 02:25:01 AM »
"higher dimensions of time"

What are these?

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #342 on: July 29, 2009, 02:33:29 AM »
"higher dimensions of time"

What are these?

What I mean by dimension, is aspect or a feature of something. Since time is a nonspatial continuum wherein moments are perceived or measured to occur in succession, God's time would be on a higher level because his mind is on a higher level. That is a higher dimension of time rather than a lack of it. His observation does not depend on our constraints. So if we were frozen, and therefore not conscious, God would still be conscious and operable from (his own)moment to (his own)moment. So he could be operable within our now, while having his own successions of nows whereby his consciousness of life would continue. It's simply another level of time.




Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #343 on: July 29, 2009, 02:45:01 AM »
Have you ever seen a movie where someone is able to freeze everyone else in a single moment, then walk around and observe them? That is the relativity of time.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #344 on: July 29, 2009, 03:06:53 AM »
Time is measurable, therefore it has a limit.  If time is endless, that is no longer time, that is eternity.  Now you could say that eternity is infinite time, but infinite time has no meaning really because it has no limit, therefore, it is no longer, strictly speaking, time.

Standing inside of time, it looks like a straight line.

Standing outside of time, it looks like a circle--see the symbol for infinity.  That is how he is able to know the end from the beginning and so forth.  Eternity is more like standing outside time and seeing it folding back on itself.

The heavens will be rolled up like a scroll

--Isa 34

See that is where your idea fails.  If Eternity is timeless then the present cannot be part of eternity since we know in this creation we have time.

Paul

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #345 on: July 29, 2009, 03:35:59 AM »
willieH: Hi brother S... :hithere:

I truly do not mean this post to be arguementative, just a differing view of the same entity -- "time"

Time doesn't really ever matter. Does time matter when God is all in all?

The problem I have is the word "when" above... WHEN God is, ...is NOW always (omnipresent geographically, realm wise, and both In or Out of HEAVEN)...

So accordingly He has ALWAYS been ALL in ALL (in every "when")... He does not morph from one thing to another for He is ALWAYS PERFECT, regardless of the existences (ordained of Him) of temporal entites such as TIME...  :happygrin:  Which is the realm in which WE "now" exist...

In only matters if we devote consideration to it. So in that sense, no. Time impartial. It is just the continuum wherein sequential moments are known to occur
.

IMO "sequential moments KNOWN to occur" is stated from OUR "time-bound"  position, not His... for He IS, no matter what or "when" we percieve Him

And concerning SEQUENCE, He named the END from the BEGINNING, yet WE move from beginning to end... whatupwidat?  :laughing7:  He designed the entire SEQUENCE and began at the END in designing it, then made its "progression" START from where HE ENDED...  :laughing7: Isaiah 46:10

His FOREKNOWLEDGE and SOVEREIGNTY are not bound by FINITE parameters... one of which entails a "SEQUENCE"... (a sequence is an order finding ...one thing following another)... He created "SEQUENCE" by declaring the END from the BEGINNING, from a position which has neither [ETERNAL].  (JMH-Observation)

If that matters, it is only in the eye of the beholder. I believe, and have found agreement, that progression will occur in the heavenlies, that action and process will occur, not a continual frozen state of "now."

The state of "NOW" in HEAVENLY perspective (as I see scripture), is in opposition to this realm... ALL that occurs within TIME outside of CHRIST is destined for the scrap pile (1 Cor 3:11-15), including TIME... the HEAVENLY "progression" (if indeed it does have one) of NOW cannot be determined by OUR FINITE observations or imposed parameters from that position...

We might observe Heaven with "finite" and "unaided eyes" and find it FROZEN --  :dontknow:  Who is to say? 

But if GOD should open those "eyes" an entirely NEW observation of NOW could be availed...  Just as other worlds in the Universe, are likely inhabited by beings, and animals completely DIFFERENT from our experience here, ...as well as other entities and things, which we might not even be ABLE to behold with our Earthly TIME-BOUND, FINITE  EYES (seeing God make no 2 snowflakes alike --  :laughing7:) ...NOTHING is impossible with GOD...

Concerning the "Heavenlies" -- ANGELS DO exist, yet we cannot SEE them... GOD exists yet we cannot SEE Him... JESUS exists, and even though He came here for a "time" and (though that "time" is over) yet LIVES, ...we still cannot SEE Him either...  :dontknow:

I guess we could argue this until (however) it really IS actually revealed to ALL of us, but for now, this is how I "see" it. 

Just as I cannot see (aside from the obedience of GOD [submission to the WORD] in this realm), ANYTHING that actually IS as it IS in that HEAVENLY realm, ...I cannot speak about HEAVENLY absolutes (i.e. a form of "Heavenly time" is or IS NOT existent) from this Earthly plane, and FINITE existence...

For I cannot see or hear or BE, within the Heavenly realm to witness what IS or IS NOT there...  I can only deduce from Scripture, that JESUS noted BELIEF in the realm of the HEAVENLY even for a MASTER of the Scriptures, is not within (beyond) the capacity of that "master"...

There is a matter of STILLNESS noted in Scripture... For GOD stated:

Psalm 46:10  "be STILL and KNOW that I am GOD"...  So "knowing GOD", has STILLNESS attached to it...

Mark 4:39  JESUS said to the (in motion, chaotic) storm:  "Peace, BE STILL"... So a PEACE also involves a STILLNESS...  Which is quite  hard to gain in this life... for most are hardly "stationary" concerning ANYTHING...  :sigh:

Ex 14:13  MOSES instructed:  "stand STILL and SEE the Salvation of YHVH" -- Which means in order to observe this, we must be STILL...  :dontknow:

Job 37:14 -- To see His wondrous works we must be STILL

Job 34:17 -- all flesh perish together? How can that be? Maybe from a STILL point of view...

It is in STILLNESS of mind and circustance, that the HEART can hear what GOD calls in the Scriptures: 

1 Kings 19:12  a STILL small voice! (HIS)

I did a study on another forum a while back about my beliefs about "TIME"...  maybe I will post it... I believe that it explains the ANCIENT appearance of the Earth, and the STARS... also the enigma's such as the Dinosaurs... which NO one can seem to explain... especially from the chronology of the "FIRST day" of Creation to the present... involving only some 6K years...  :dontknow:

Geology argues MILLIONS even BILLIONS of "years" (and within that the foolishness of  evolution is born)... and Christianity argues for a YOUNG Earth (which cannot explain the Dinosaurs, fossilization, strata layers, etc)... I think it is both... it just takes EYES to see what took place...  :laughing7:

:Peace: brother...

...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #346 on: July 29, 2009, 03:49:55 AM »
 well, I am sorry if you do not feel you can exist/live

  outside the realm of time. That such a thing would imprison

  you. For I see it as a freedom awarded  the Sons of God

  at the coming revealing of them...and a GLORIOUS FREEDOM

  at that. Made in the image of God.


                                Sheila  

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #347 on: July 29, 2009, 04:01:36 AM »
Just a rhetorical question:
Does remembrance occur in time?

Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #348 on: July 29, 2009, 04:02:35 AM »
Paul,

  We are not of this world.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #349 on: July 29, 2009, 04:12:46 AM »

IMO "sequential moments KNOWN to occur" is stated from OUR "time-bound"  position, not His... for He IS, no matter what or "when" we percieve Him

Right. The difference betwen OUR position and His position relates to the relativity that I am talking about. There is no ABSOLUTE time by which EVERYTHING observes time the same way. That is why time cannot BIND anything and that is why I referred to the relativity of it. Time is relative because it is based on observation. Observation is a process of the mind. God's mind is higher than our mind, so his observations are infinitely higher than our own. That is why I speak of INFINITELY higher dimensions of time, rather than the lacking of it.



Quote
And concerning SEQUENCE, He named the END from the BEGINNING, yet WE move from beginning to end... whatupwidat?  :laughing7:  He designed the entire SEQUENCE and began at the END in designing it, then made its "progression" START from where HE ENDED...  :laughing7: Isaiah 46:10

His FOREKNOWLEDGE and SOVEREIGNTY are not bound by FINITE parameters...

I know that his sovereignty is not BOUND by finite parameters. I have actually been declaring that myself. It's that I have no reason to believe that time itself is finite, or limited. What makes us limited is not time, but our nature. Time is nothing but the process of recognition. I do not see time as being a limitation of itself. It is only as limited as the mind which observes it. Time is simply a nonspatial continuum by which moments are observed to occur in sequence. And a sequence is just a particular order of that which follows another. That God's thoughts are higher than ours would simply mean NON finite observations which you elude to below and I agree with. That does not eliminate time, but elevates it.

If, for example, God moves within our frozen NOW single moment, his observations would not be dependent on our own, so while his observation would continue, we would be unaware. In fact, our earthly observation, after being unfrozen, would be that nothing had ever been frozen at all. That is the higher level of time that I am talking about. I just don't see time as a bad word. I see decay and death as the true enemies to life, not time itself. I see time itself to be completely impartial, neither good or bad.

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the HEAVENLY "progression" (if indeed it does have one) of NOW cannot be determined by OUR FINITE observations or imposed parameters from that position...

Exactly. It cannot be determined by OUR finite observations.

Quote
We might observe Heaven with "finite" and "unaided eyes" and find it FROZEN --  :dontknow:  Who is to say? 

But our finite observations don't matter, and are not what I am talking about.

Quote
But if GOD should open those "eyes" an entirely NEW observation of NOW could be availed...  Just as other worlds in the Universe, are likely inhabited by beings, and animals completely DIFFERENT from our experience here, ...as well as other entities and things, which we might not even be ABLE to behold with our Earthly TIME-BOUND, FINITE  EYES (seeing God make no 2 snowflakes alike --  :laughing7:) ...NOTHING is impossible with GOD...

BLAMMO. We agree. But time is not earthly of itself. It is our minds that are earthly and therefore our point of observation is earthly. That is why time gets a bad rap. We can only observe it from a finite, earthly viewpoint, so we think that anything different would equate to LACK of time, which is not what I believe.

I see time even in the peace of stillness. If I were to be still, I would also be aware of each moment of stillness. That is time. Not only that, it would be according to that awareness that I would enjoy each still moment  :cloud9:

 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 04:39:51 AM by Seth »