Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 26815 times)

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Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #275 on: July 28, 2009, 02:34:26 AM »
Quote
I mean... we are still creatures.
We're not the Creator.
and we'll never be the Creator.

Yes, and even for the Creator, there can be sequences of events, even if some of those sequences are seen/experienced on a level that we cannot comprehend. God has told us that he has worked on a sequential level in how he created the universe. Why - for a God who declares how highly He values ORDER - would we assume that it's no good for him that sequence should be in his realm, even if his experiences occur on a higher level?

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #276 on: July 28, 2009, 02:38:50 AM »
Quote
Insert Quote
   

*KERPOW*!!

(sound of sparrow's little brain exploding.)

 

j/k... this is a good conversation.

LOL....we're getting all philisophimacal...er somethin'



lol..!
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #277 on: July 28, 2009, 02:39:25 AM »
Quote
I mean... we are still creatures.
We're not the Creator.
and we'll never be the Creator.

Yes, and even for the Creator, there can be sequences of events, even if some of those sequences are seen/experienced on a level that we cannot comprehend. God has told us that he has worked on a sequential level in how he created the universe. Why - for a God who declares how highly He values ORDER - would we assume that it's no good for him that sequence should be in his realm, even if his experiences occur on a higher level?

ahh! Yes...
That is a very good point!
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #278 on: July 28, 2009, 03:52:40 AM »
Firstly, if God did give you that definition, then in means that he gave you a truth that He chose to keep it out of his Word, and did not factor into the New or Old Testaments.

 :cloud9: Hi Seth........not at all.........He spoke a precept and a precept is that which is hidden in plain sight all thru His Word, it's just not readily visible to those that don't have the precept. That's why it's the glory of kings to search out a matter, because the precepts are what require searching in the first place. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #279 on: July 28, 2009, 04:07:26 AM »
Firstly, if God did give you that definition, then in means that he gave you a truth that He chose to keep it out of his Word, and did not factor into the New or Old Testaments.

 :cloud9: Hi Seth........not at all.........He spoke a precept and a precept is that which is hidden in plain sight all thru His Word, it's just not readily visible to those that don't have the precept. That's why it's the glory of kings to search out a matter, because the precepts are what require searching in the first place. Blessings....

Hey sis.. sorry I'm jumping ahead here and maybe you were going to address this too, but what about the rest of what Seth said:

Quote
If God said TO YOU, that time is the measurement of death, and
If God said TO ME, that time is the measurement of life,

Do you think both can be true? I do.

The point I am making is that sometimes people feel that they are given a WHOLE truth on something by God, and then are not open to another truth that may compliment the other, not realizing that maybe God gave them a PIECE of the puzzle to put together with another person.

If time were a measurement of death (I'm not saying it is), that does not preclude time from being other things too.

 
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #280 on: July 28, 2009, 04:50:28 AM »
 :cloud9: Not a lot of net time as I said, but I can only see time as a measurement of THIS LIFE, which in actuality is DEATH, as there is not one thing here that is not in the state of decay. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #281 on: July 28, 2009, 06:43:16 AM »
:cloud9: Not a lot of net time as I said, but I can only see time as a measurement of THIS LIFE, which in actuality is DEATH, as there is not one thing here that is not in the state of decay. Blessings....

You are right, all things in this earth are in a state of decay.....just not because of time....  :hihat:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #282 on: July 28, 2009, 01:52:34 PM »
 :cloud9: No, not because of, but because it is the measurement of being lowered (from being one with Him before the foundation) into this bondage of corruption. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #283 on: July 28, 2009, 06:49:33 PM »
:cloud9: No, not because of, but because it is the measurement of being lowered (from being one with Him before the foundation) into this bondage of corruption. Blessings....

Maybe that is how you and I think different. Since time is impartial, it can be used to measure anything. As "time goes by" I measure the joy of the Lord in me...  :HeartThrob:

It will be that way in the heavenlies as well, in the recognition of the continuance of life that we will have as it endures forever..





« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 06:57:34 PM by Seth »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #284 on: July 28, 2009, 07:26:13 PM »
 :cloud9: My  :2c:.......Since something had to die to create time (that something being US for one thing), it makes no sense to see it as having been pre-existant, or to come, in a Kingdom that is Spirit, inhabited by spirits. If time existed there, so would aging, yet we do not age. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #285 on: July 28, 2009, 07:46:48 PM »
:cloud9: My  :2c:.......Since something had to die to create time (that something being US for one thing), it makes no sense to see it as having been pre-existant, or to come, in a Kingdom that is Spirit, inhabited by spirits. If time existed there, so would aging, yet we do not age. Blessings....

Where do you see that something had to die to create time?

God is making all things new... why not time and the implications of time and what time will mean?
No more death! No more sorrow!

Time is a great thing, we just think it's bad because of the limitations we now experience because of our fallen state. Aging, decaying... that will be no more.

well.. gotta go... be back tonight guys..  :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #286 on: July 28, 2009, 07:58:13 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
No more death! No more sorrow!

No more time!  :bigGrin:

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #287 on: July 28, 2009, 08:01:48 PM »
Time is a great thing, we just think it's bad because of the limitations we now experience because of our fallen state. Aging, decaying... that will be no more.

Amen. The first evidence of time occurs when God created LIGHT...  :laughing7:

Nothing created time. Time is not a created entity. And since it is completely neutral - it's left to us to quantify it either according to the light within us, or the death that is all around us. In the "heavenlies" (which is the actual word for God's realm) time is that by which we recognize the continuance of LIGHT that is in God and given to us, having divided us from the flesh forever. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:



Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #288 on: July 28, 2009, 08:03:17 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
No more death! No more sorrow!

No more time!  :bigGrin:



All the time we need!!!!  :icon_flower:

lol...

ok, now I really have to go..I'm running late.
I have no more time.  :winkgrin:
arggh!!

no more time??
shoot.

We'll have all the time we could ever want!  :happygrin:

peace guys... have a great day.
 :icon_flower:

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #289 on: July 28, 2009, 08:04:07 PM »
Quote from: Sparrow
No more death! No more sorrow!

No more time!  :bigGrin:

Then I hope time doesn't stop when I'm doing time in LoF  :msealed:

Time doesn't have to mean aging Cardinal.
Many people in Genesis lived a long time. So they aged slower. I see no reason why God can completely stop the aging. So aging is no valid argument to (dis)prove time IMO.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #290 on: July 28, 2009, 08:05:02 PM »
Time is a great thing, we just think it's bad because of the limitations we now experience because of our fallen state. Aging, decaying... that will be no more.

Amen. The first evidence of time occurs when God created LIGHT...  :laughing7:

Nothing created time. Time is not a created entity. And since it is completely neutral - it's left to us to quantify it either according to the light within us, or the death that is all around us. In the "heavenlies" (which is the actual word for God's realm) time is that by which we recognize the continuance of LIGHT that is in God and given to us, having divided us from the flesh forever. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:


just had to quickly say..

I like that!!

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Online sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #291 on: July 28, 2009, 08:12:07 PM »

   TIME IS A MEASUREMENT OF DEATH...

   BECAUSE DEATH HAS AN END...AND A BEGINNING

   AND LIFE SWALLOWS UP DEATH

   AND THE ETERNAL HAS NO END..OR BEGINNING..

   SO THEREFORE IT IS CALLED TIMELESSNESS

  

   THERE IS NO NIGHT[DEATH] THERE IN THE HOLY CITY...

  IT IS ONE PERPETUAL NEVER-ENDING DAY.

  DO YOU NOT RECOGNIZE THAT HE HAS THE POWER

  TO MAKE TIME STAND STILL, GO BACKWARD ETC?

   TIME IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE TO HIM


   WHAT IF HE MAKES TIME TO CEASE,DEATH TO CEASE...

    
    JOB38;4  WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I LAID THE EARTHS

     FOUNDATION?  TELL ME IF YOU UNDERSTAND



   JOB 40

 WILL THE ONE WHO CONTENDS WITH THE ALMIGHTY

  CORRECT HIM?



   V 7  BRACE YOURSELF LIKE A MAN; I WILL QUESTION YOU

  AND YOU SHALL ANSWER ME.....






   JOB 42

     THEN JOB REPLIED TO THE LORD..'I KNOW THAT

  YOU CAN DO ALL THINGS,NO PLAN OF YOURS CAN BE

   THWARTED.


   YOU ASKED, 'WHO IS THIS THAT OBSCURES MY COUNSEL

  WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE? SURELY I SPOKE OF THINGS I DID

NOT UNDERSTAND,THINGS TOO WONDERFUL FOR ME TO KNOW


    

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #292 on: July 28, 2009, 08:23:06 PM »

   TIME IS A MEASUREMENT OF DEATH...

   BECAUSE DEATH HAS AN END...AND A BEGINNING

   AND LIFE SWALLOWS UP DEATH

   AND THE ETERNAL HAS NO END..OR BEGINNING..

   SO THEREFORE IT IS CALLED TIMELESSNESS


Shiela, God bless you, but time being a "measurement of death" is a personal opinion.

TIME IS A MEASUREMENT OF LIGHT AND LIFE. And because God's light and life continue forever, time has neither beginning or end.

  

 
Quote
THERE IS NO NIGHT[DEATH] THERE IN THE HOLY CITY...

  IT IS ONE PERPETUAL NEVER-ENDING DAY.

Exactly.



  
Quote
DO YOU NOT RECOGNIZE THAT HE HAS THE POWER

  TO MAKE TIME STAND STILL, GO BACKWARD ETC?

Do YOU recognize that what you described is not a lack of time?

  
Quote
TIME IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE TO HIM

It is of no consequence to me either.  :HeartThrob:


  
Quote
WHAT IF HE MAKES TIME TO CEASE,DEATH TO CEASE...

He can do the latter without needing to do the former.







Online sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #293 on: July 28, 2009, 08:50:29 PM »
 OK SETH

   WHEN WE GO INTO THAT HOLY CITY,I WILL BE MORE THAN

 HAPPY FOR YOU TO TELL ME WHAT TIME IT IS.

  HOW YOU WILL DO THAT WITHOUT SUN OR MOON IN IT

   I  WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.


   MAYBE THERE'S A BIG CLOCK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY?

  THAT COUNTS TIME FROM GOD'S BEGINNING TO END

   HUH?


   HOW MANY DAYS,HOURS,WEEKS ARE IN ETERNITY?

   MAYBE WE'LL COUNT IN EAONS?

   WHAT KIND OF NUMBERS WILL THEY BE,ZILLIONS?


   THERE WAS A REASON SATAN HAD DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL

  IN OPPOSITION TO THE LORD.

  AND THERE IS A REASON FOR THE GREAT CROWD WHICH NO

   MAN CAN COUNT.


   THAT LAST ENEMY IS DEATH

   THE EARTH WEARS OUT LIKE A GARMENT


    JOSHUA 10


     O'SUN STAND STILL OVER GIBEON,O MOON ,OVER THE

    VALLEY OF AIJALON.

   SO THE SUN STOOD STILL AND THE MOON STOPPED,

   TIL THE NATION AVENGED ITSELF ON IT'S ENEMIES


Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #294 on: July 28, 2009, 09:03:31 PM »
 :cloud9: Love it Sheila  :thumbsup: 

And Seth, time being a measurement of death, as I explained before, is not a personal opinion. Something dying is what created time in the first place, as He is without death, and therefore without time, 'died' a 'death' to pour Himself into forming the creation that is subject to death, in the first place.

Death is a CESSATION of life, even in this realm, and since His Spirit IS LIFE, there is no cessation (no beginning and no end) of that which IS LIFE, therefore no death, in the world to come. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #295 on: July 28, 2009, 09:05:12 PM »
Quote
OK SETH

   WHEN WE GO INTO THAT HOLY CITY,I WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY FOR YOU TO TELL ME WHAT TIME IT IS.

Shiela,
This has been stated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, so I will state it again since it warrants repeating.

Just because people don't "tell time" that is to quantify it by units, does not mean time does not exist.



 
Quote
HOW YOU WILL DO THAT WITHOUT SUN OR MOON IN IT

   I  WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.

   MAYBE THERE'S A BIG CLOCK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY?

  THAT COUNTS TIME FROM GOD'S BEGINNING TO END

   HUH?

HOW MANY DAYS,HOURS,WEEKS ARE IN ETERNITY?

   MAYBE WE'LL COUNT IN EAONS?

   WHAT KIND OF NUMBERS WILL THEY BE,ZILLIONS?

You do not realize what I am saying, and you simply are not paying attention to the words which are being spoken to you which make for a difficult experience communicating with you. Time is the understanding of continuance. That's it. UNITS of time are the expressed quantities of times having beginnings and ends in how they are reckoned to be. Time can exist without expressing the quantity of it according to seconds, days, years etc. Time can exist without sectioning it off in terms of units OF time.

Just because I say that time does not end, does not mean that I am saying the PRACTICE of quantifying it will never end.

Good grief, is this really that hard to understand?!





  
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 09:10:19 PM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #296 on: July 28, 2009, 09:06:52 PM »
:cloud9: Love it Sheila  :thumbsup: 

And Seth, time being a measurement of death, as I explained before, is not a personal opinion. Something dying is what created time in the first place, as He is without death, and therefore without time, 'died' a 'death' to pour Himself into forming the creation that is subject to death, in the first place.

Death is a CESSATION of life, even in this realm, and since His Spirit IS LIFE, there is no cessation (no beginning and no end) of that which IS LIFE, therefore no death, in the world to come. Blessings....

Cardinal if I had to rely on what everyone claimed to be "thus saith the lord" I would be going off in different directions.

Online sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #297 on: July 28, 2009, 09:47:18 PM »
 Seth,

    I see it the other way.I feel you can not define

  life/consciousness out of the concept of time.

   Now Ecc 3 speaks of time...a season for every activity

     UNDER...... HEAVEN.....

   this bespeaks of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

   a time to be born a time to die   a time to kill a time to heal

   etc.


   now listen to this  v 11

   He has also set eternity in the hearts of men;yet...

   they can not fathom what God has done from beginning to end

   
    THIS THE TREE OF LIFE.......OUR FAMILY TREE

    THAT IS OUTSIDE THE REALM OF TIME...ABOVE


   indeed...for this reason...Adam Eve were ousted from the

 garden before they could eat of the TOL and remain in that time

 of TOKOGAE

    TIME IS NO MORE  when...the dead are conscious of nothing

  and when LIFE SWALLOWS UP DEATH


   p.s.  I had a vision of my walking in the pavillions in heaven, and I looked over and there was Seth transformed himself into a clock, :mshock: of which the arms went round and round.And I said,
 'ALRIGHT,SETH, I KNOW IT'S YOU' and we laughed. :laughing7:   

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #298 on: July 28, 2009, 10:07:38 PM »
Quote
now listen to this  v 11

   He has also set eternity in the hearts of men;yet...

   they can not fathom what God has done from beginning to end

The word "eternity" there is translated from "olam" which does not mean "eternity" as you are defining it.

Consciousness is simply the state of being aware of one's surroundings. Therefore, time does not DEFINE or describe life or give meaning to it. Time just makes us AWARE of the continuance of it.


Quote

    TIME IS NO MORE  when...the dead are conscious of nothing

  and when LIFE SWALLOWS UP DEATH

That is right, time is no more when consciousness itself is thrown out the window. That is why one FREEZES time the result is timelessness, and consciousness is ended until time is unfrozen. When life EXPANDS consciousness time is lifted to a higher dimension.


   
Quote
p.s.  I had a vision of my walking in the pavillions in heaven, and I looked over and there was Seth transformed himself into a clock,  of which the arms went round and round.And I said,
 'ALRIGHT,SETH, I KNOW IT'S YOU' and we laughed.    

:faint:

I still don't know how clocks have anything to do with it.  :Whistle:

Online sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #299 on: July 28, 2009, 10:50:10 PM »
 owlam...perpetuity or always

  you failed to mention Eccl as I showed it relates to time and

the  TOKOGAE, did you not see the correlation? Or did you

 dismiss it entirely on  eternity in our hearts not meaning actual

 eternity?

   Can you find no precept in that,Seth?

  you see, what I perceive in your reasoning is the taking of the

 good from the tokogae and extending that into the eternal,

 as it relates to time. When even the good in the tokogae

 is still a state of death, for it is a mixture.


   That is the reason I expound  on TOL as timelessness,

  for it is centered on the eternal one without beginning or end


                                          Sheila