Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 31873 times)

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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #250 on: July 27, 2009, 08:01:03 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......



Cardinal, why is not time also the measurement of thought? I appreciate that you have a personal definition of time and that it factors into your definition of timelessness, but I don't see any reason why it is, or should be the only one - especially since the scripture does not explicitly define time for us.

I see timelessness a LACK of thought, which to me IS a death.

 :cloud9: Hi Seth........it would be, of the CARNAL mind, which is bound in time and IS death. To be carnally minded IS death......or said another way, is of the realm of death, and it's supreme ruler. Blessings......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #251 on: July 27, 2009, 08:10:33 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......



Cardinal, why is not time also the measurement of thought? I appreciate that you have a personal definition of time and that it factors into your definition of timelessness, but I don't see any reason why it is, or should be the only one - especially since the scripture does not explicitly define time for us.

I see timelessness a LACK of thought, which to me IS a death.

 :cloud9: Hi Seth........it would be, of the CARNAL mind, which is bound in time and IS death. To be carnally minded IS death......or said another way, is of the realm of death, and it's supreme ruler. Blessings......

Cardinal, you didn't really address my question. Thought and CARNAL thought are not the same thing. There are different KINDS of death noted in the scripture. Carnal mindedness are thoughts that are enslaved to the sin in the flesh. That is not what I am talking about. I am talking about something else.

Why is time not simply the measurement of existence that thought carries out, in which case not necessarily linked to death. Simply put, why is not time the knowledge of LIFE's endurance and progress?

In which case, the loss of time would mean the loss of awareness of life itself and its progress and duration, which would be a KIND of death.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #252 on: July 27, 2009, 08:19:38 PM »
If death is erased, and life is all that remains, why then is not time a measurement of LIFE?

Time is impartial. It is simply an awareness of continuance and progress. Mortality is what contributes to death, but time is simply the awareness of either life or death in its continuance. Get rid of death, and time becomes simply the awareness of the continuance of life.

I don't see why you have chosen to eliminate LIFE within your personal definition of time, since it stands to reason that both life and death can be included... The only reason I can think of is that you have conflated time with mortality, when in fact the two are NOT necessarily entangled, and I have not seen any reasons from you why time is supposedly indistinguishable from mortality....

Why cannot immortals be aware of the continued existence of life?



 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 08:32:39 PM by Seth »

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #253 on: July 27, 2009, 08:26:53 PM »
If death is erased, and life is all that remains, why then is not time a measurement of LIFE?

Time is impartial. It is simply an awareness of continuance and progress. Mortality is what contributes to death, but time is simply the awareness of either life or death in its continuance. Get rid of death, and time becomes simply the awareness of the continuance of life.

Yeah Seth, that's the way I see it too.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #254 on: July 27, 2009, 08:34:35 PM »
Currently time works against us because we age and then die. God states He reduced the max. age to 120 years.

Is that time working against us, or mortality?

In this case I see them as the same.
If you are immortal time doesn't matter anymore. Who cares if you are 30 or 3000, you are always in tip top shape.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #255 on: July 27, 2009, 08:39:20 PM »
Currently time works against us because we age and then die. God states He reduced the max. age to 120 years.

Is that time working against us, or mortality?

In this case I see them as the same.
If you are immortal time doesn't matter anymore. Who cares if you are 30 or 3000, you are always in tip top shape.


LOL!

Well, again I think it is important to distinguish time with UNITS of time. I mean, to me, it doesn't matter what I age I am NOW.  :laughing7:


Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #256 on: July 27, 2009, 08:45:14 PM »
If death is erased, and life is all that remains, why then is not time a measurement of LIFE?

Time is impartial. It is simply an awareness of continuance and progress. Mortality is what contributes to death, but time is simply the awareness of either life or death in its continuance. Get rid of death, and time becomes simply the awareness of the continuance of life.

Yeah Seth, that's the way I see it too.

I agree with you Sparrow: time has gotten a bad rep. It got all wrapped up with mortality and decay, which I think are the true hostilities to life.  :HeartThrob:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #257 on: July 27, 2009, 08:58:00 PM »
Well, again I think it is important to distinguish time with UNITS of time. I mean, to me, it doesn't matter what I age I am NOW.  :laughing7:
Without units of time, no measurement of time. No measurement, no flow of time. No flow of time, time is frozen.

A paradox.
There is a theory that there is a real/dimension where time flows just like we know it here. But at the same 'time' there is a 'state' of what WillieH calls Now/Is. (or something similar)
As I wrote earlier in this thread think about the Trinity. Doesn't matter if you believe in it but the concept is the same.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #258 on: July 27, 2009, 09:08:40 PM »
Well, again I think it is important to distinguish time with UNITS of time. I mean, to me, it doesn't matter what I age I am NOW.  :laughing7:
Without units of time, no measurement of time. No measurement, no flow of time. No flow of time, time is frozen.

That is not necessarily true. Time does not flow anyway. Time is simply the awareness or regard for continuance. The illusion of movement is created by how our memory works. However, it is not needful to QUANTIFY time. Time can exist without quantifying it.




Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #259 on: July 27, 2009, 09:13:16 PM »
Well, again I think it is important to distinguish time with UNITS of time. I mean, to me, it doesn't matter what I age I am NOW.  :laughing7:
Without units of time, no measurement of time. No measurement, no flow of time. No flow of time, time is frozen.

That is not necessarily true. Time does not flow anyway. Time is simply the awareness or regard for continuance. The illusion of movement is created by how our memory works. However, it is not needful to QUANTIFY time. Time can exist without quantifying it.
So I stopped celebrating my birthday (quantify) for nothing? I didn't stop my timeflow?  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #260 on: July 27, 2009, 09:22:13 PM »
 :laughing7:

You CANT stop the flow of something that doesn't flow in the first place.  :laughing7:

To "stop" time, you would need to stop being aware of any duration or order of events (even the continuance of life from moment to moment). It is the EVENTS that "flow" and being aware OF that flow is time. If God is aware of the flow of events in a different order or experience, this does not eliminate time, but takes it to a higher level. Example:

Take this order of experiences for human:

experience 1
experience 2
experience 3
experience 4

If God experiences it this way:

1) experience 3
2) experience 4
3) experience 1
4) experience 2

There is still a flow of events, only on a higher dimension. That is not timelessness, but a higher expansive dimension of it that our minds cannot understand.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #261 on: July 27, 2009, 09:43:30 PM »
Not exactly the same but I was refering to something a fairly similar a few posts back.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #262 on: July 27, 2009, 10:04:58 PM »
 :cloud9: Hi Seth......thought I DID address it, according to my understanding of it. And the definition is what He SPOKE to me, so it's not my definition in the first place. I was stunned by it. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline rosered

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #263 on: July 27, 2009, 10:13:13 PM »
Quote
Why cannot immortals be aware of the continued existence of life?

  Hi Seth , and all
  I was thinking about  this very thing  with the two realms 
 the earthly and mortal realm   we are dead to God 
 but the immortal and heavenly realm we are ALIVE to God in Christ [Body of  believers]
 time   is no more    these verses to me say it all ..........

 

 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ. 
 Col 2:18   Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 


 Col 2:19   And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 


 Col 2:20   Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 


 Col 2:21   (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 


 Col 2:22   Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 


 Col 2:23   Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. 

 
  and  this Jesus was showing here There were therefore seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and died without children. 


 Luk 20:30   And the second took her to wife, and he died childless. 


 Luk 20:31   And the third took her; and in like manner the seven also: and they left no children, and died. 


 Luk 20:32   Last of all the woman died also. 


 Luk 20:33   Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she? for seven had her to wife. 


 Luk 20:34   And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 


 Luk 20:35   But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 


 Luk 20:36   Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. 


 Luk 20:37   Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 


 Luk 20:38   For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.    :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 10:20:07 PM by rosered »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #264 on: July 27, 2009, 10:14:39 PM »
:cloud9: Hi Seth......thought I DID address it, according to my understanding of it. And the definition is what He SPOKE to me, so it's not my definition in the first place. I was stunned by it. Blessings....

Yes, you addressed the carnal mind, but not my specific question: Why is not time ALSO a measurement of life.

Firstly, if God did give you that definition, then in means that he gave you a truth that He chose to keep it out of his Word, and did not factor into the New or Old Testaments. Ok, putting that aside:

If God said TO YOU, that time is the measurement of death, and
If God said TO ME, that time is the measurement of life,

Do you think both can be true? I do.

The point I am making is that sometimes people feel that they are given a WHOLE truth on something by God, and then are not open to another truth that may compliment the other, not realizing that maybe God gave them a PIECE of the puzzle to put together with another person.

If time were a measurement of death (I'm not saying it is), that does not preclude time from being other things too.



« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 10:22:57 PM by Seth »

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #265 on: July 27, 2009, 10:38:55 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......



Cardinal, why is not time also the measurement of thought? I appreciate that you have a personal definition of time and that it factors into your definition of timelessness, but I don't see any reason why it is, or should be the only one - especially since the scripture does not explicitly define time for us.

I see timelessness a LACK of thought, which to me IS a death.


Same here.  I don't see timelessness being a part of God's nature.  If anything His nature has shown us that it was God that used the term DAY and called it GOOD.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #266 on: July 27, 2009, 10:40:48 PM »
Well, again I think it is important to distinguish time with UNITS of time. I mean, to me, it doesn't matter what I age I am NOW.  :laughing7:
Without units of time, no measurement of time. No measurement, no flow of time. No flow of time, time is frozen.

A paradox.
There is a theory that there is a real/dimension where time flows just like we know it here. But at the same 'time' there is a 'state' of what WillieH calls Now/Is. (or something similar)
As I wrote earlier in this thread think about the Trinity. Doesn't matter if you believe in it but the concept is the same.

Don't need a measurement of time to have time.  All we have to say is that something was done after something else was done and we have in fact made known that something thru time occurred after something else.

Paul

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #267 on: July 27, 2009, 11:04:46 PM »
willieH: Hi Seth... :hithere:

There is still a flow of events, only on a higher dimension. That is not timelessness, but a higher expansive dimension of it that our minds cannot understand.

Or maybe TIMELESSNESS (the eternal) is a "FLOW" our minds cannot understand...  :dontknow:

Not just flowing FORWARD... but flowing in EVERY DIRECTION...  :dontknow:

Emanating from the HEART of YHVH, ...everyWHERE and everyWHEN simultaneously... as JESUS noted Himself in -- John 3:13 -- and the observation of YHVH as He IS...  Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omni-everything at once!

He being ALL in ALL... means that ALL that He is IN, is experiencing HIM in HIS FULLNESS... which is why JESUS could stand before men (with the FULLNESS of DIVINITY within His experience) and say that He (1) came down (past) -- (2)  hath ascended (future) while He was standing before them in the -- (3) PRESENT... Thereby "BEING" everyWHERE and everyWHEN simultaneously in His "BEING"... which is why He so much as said -- Nicodemus would not "get it"...  :dontknow: -- John 3:12

We do have the comprehension of the FLOW of "time" -- Eccl 9:5 -- the LIVING know they shall DIE, but the DEAD know not any thing...

"Die" being future, and the ultimate destiny of the "flow of time"...

just  :2c: to think about...  :HeartThrob:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline rosered

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #268 on: July 27, 2009, 11:43:57 PM »
 
 
  good ponit WILLIE  :icon_flower:

 
The concept with scriptures ........ N.A.S.B.  John  chapter 3
11"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

 12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

 13"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

 14"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

 16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life
.

 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
again we are talking about that living BODY that knows no time limits through the eternal Spirit  :thumbsup:

 18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

 
 to me the Light is a type of Heavenly Knowledge  that is also  timeless but applies for all times/always  :HeartThrob:

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #269 on: July 28, 2009, 12:04:16 AM »
willieH: Hi Seth... :hithere:

There is still a flow of events, only on a higher dimension. That is not timelessness, but a higher expansive dimension of it that our minds cannot understand.

Or maybe TIMELESSNESS (the eternal) is a "FLOW" our minds cannot understand...  :dontknow:

Not just flowing FORWARD... but flowing in EVERY DIRECTION...  :dontknow:

Emanating from the HEART of YHVH, ...everyWHERE and everyWHEN simultaneously... as JESUS noted Himself in -- John 3:13 -- and the observation of YHVH as He IS...  Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omni-everything at once!

He being ALL in ALL... means that ALL that He is IN, is experiencing HIM in HIS FULLNESS... which is why JESUS could stand before men (with the FULLNESS of DIVINITY within His experience) and say that He (1) came down (past) -- (2)  hath ascended (future) while He was standing before them in the -- (3) PRESENT... Thereby "BEING" everyWHERE and everyWHEN simultaneously in His "BEING"... which is why He so much as said -- Nicodemus would not "get it"...  :dontknow: -- John 3:12

We do have the comprehension of the FLOW of "time" -- Eccl 9:5 -- the LIVING know they shall DIE, but the DEAD know not any thing...

"Die" being future, and the ultimate destiny of the "flow of time"...

just  :2c: to think about...  :HeartThrob:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

WillieH, I think that we may think of things similarly, with different terminology.  I think the transcendence of the human experiences of the flow of events is not something that I think as timeLESSness, but a higher dimension of it. I think of timelessness as LESS awareness, and a higher dimension of time as MORE awareness because I see time as thought, or an understanding OF things rather than being a thing itself to be discarded. So when I see "timelessness" I see "awarelessness" (I know, not a word  :laughing7:)

Whatever the flow of events is, whether "forward" or "in all directions" time factors into the flow, by revealing the order in which God has command. I don't believe that Eternity demands an experience without progression or sequence, but that whatever order progression happens, if God is aware OF that order (and I believe God is one of order and not chaos, or frozenness), time is of a exponentially higher level in the Spirit.

------

BTW, I don't really see the flow of events as being "forward" in the first place. It's all moment to moment in the now. It only seems like it is forward because the dead KNOW that they will die. They anticipate a future event not yet occured. So it has the ILLUSION of being forward. If anything, according to the illusion of motion, events flow backward into the past as they occur. But....that's just memory. Events don't really flow anywhere. If they have a flow, it is that they occur, then they stop occuring so that another event takes it's place.

The notes in music don't flow forward or backward. A chord occurs, then it stops occuring, when another chord takes its place. The ILLUSION says that the notes flow from the future into the past. We say our deaths are in our future. It's just an idiom. Our deaths are not "IN" anywhere. They just occur when they occur.

I see time like pictures in an animation. Each now moment is like a single picture of Mickey Mouse. When you flip all the now moment (pictures) it looks like movement, because the mind comprehends and remembers the previous picture. The reality is that there IS no movement, just comprehension of moments that individually occur in the now which give the illusion of motion.

As a human being, I am able to move. But if I were to distill every moment to it's NOW, I would remove the awareness of sequence, and see that each NOW is like a zillion frozen photos. I am able to move my arm and understand the movement by comprehending the sequence.

Now, if God is able to view all "photos" at once and even rearrange the sequence, my mind doesn't understand that because I'm far stupider than Him. However, if He did it, that is the expansive dimension OF time that I am talking about.

------

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.


I probably see this verse a bit differently. Since I don't see heaven as a distinct "place" (which I think we agree on), I don't see that Christ being in Heaven as he spoke those words means that he was in two different places, or two different points in time.

What I see in that verse is that by being in the Spirit, we are ascended to heavenly places (positions, status), even though we may be clothed in flesh. It is that our minds have been set free from slavery and awakened to spiritual truth, and by being in the Spirit have been joined with God in "heaven" (a higher state of being).

However, if that verse has to do with time, I don't think it suggests timelessness but a higher command OF time..

« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 01:25:17 AM by Seth »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #270 on: July 28, 2009, 12:28:58 AM »
Q. What time is it in eternity?


A. It's that time


Q. What time?

A. Correct.




Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #271 on: July 28, 2009, 12:31:42 AM »
Q. What time is it in eternity?


A. It's that time


Q. What time?

A. Correct.





Lol. Here's one for you:

Q: What time is it in eternity?
A: It's that time.
Q: What time?
A: All the time.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #272 on: July 28, 2009, 02:14:28 AM »
 :mshock:  :dontknow:

*KERPOW*!!

(sound of sparrow's little brain exploding.)

 :laughing7:

j/k... this is a good conversation.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #273 on: July 28, 2009, 02:20:07 AM »
ok for those who say there is no time or time will be destroyed, whatever.

Are you saying that when we are ressurrected..
that will no longer be a sequence of events?

I mean... we are still creatures.
We're not the Creator.
and we'll never be the Creator.

I think we'll always be bound by this thing called "time" but like, I think Seth was saying... it will be the measurement of LIFE. It will no longer be the measurement of Death, because death will be destroyed.

Which when you look at it that way... seems really exciting and fascinating..

The measurement of LIFE...

imagine that... time, sequence of events, with no end... being the measurement of LIFE.

hmmm...
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #274 on: July 28, 2009, 02:25:08 AM »
Quote
Insert Quote
   

*KERPOW*!!

(sound of sparrow's little brain exploding.)

 

j/k... this is a good conversation.

LOL....we're getting all philisophimacal...er somethin'