Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 31749 times)

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trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #225 on: July 26, 2009, 10:41:36 PM »
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So your of the believe that context creates the meaning of words and not instead that words create context?

Paul

We are talking about translating here.  So, yes, context is very important as to which meaning or shade of meaning you choose for a word.  I really like the King James the best of all the Bibles.

But, when I look at the Hebrew and Greek words, it gives a three dimensional quality to the English translation--because any translation is going to be degraded, by definition.

Ok, Molly, I thought you were a universalist.  I'm had the wrong impression.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #226 on: July 26, 2009, 10:47:48 PM »
Quote
So your of the believe that context creates the meaning of words and not instead that words create context?

Paul

We are talking about translating here.  So, yes, context is very important as to which meaning or shade of meaning you choose for a word.  I really like the King James the best of all the Bibles.

But, when I look at the Hebrew and Greek words, it gives a three dimensional quality to the English translation--because any translation is going to be degraded, by definition.

Ok, Molly, I thought you were a universalist.  I'm had the wrong impression.

Paul
Not sure how you came to that impression from this discussion, but I actually don't have any opinion about what happens to people after death other than Jesus has promised us eternal life.  God has not revealed much of anything else to me about it particularly.  It's not something that I think about often.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #227 on: July 26, 2009, 10:53:01 PM »
Quote
So your of the believe that context creates the meaning of words and not instead that words create context?

Paul

We are talking about translating here.  So, yes, context is very important as to which meaning or shade of meaning you choose for a word.  I really like the King James the best of all the Bibles.

But, when I look at the Hebrew and Greek words, it gives a three dimensional quality to the English translation--because any translation is going to be degraded, by definition.

Ok, Molly, I thought you were a universalist.  I'm had the wrong impression.

Paul
Not sure how you came to that impression from this discussion, but I actually don't have any opinion about what happens to people after death other than Jesus has promised us eternal life.  God has not revealed much of anything else to me about it particularly.  It's not something that I think about often.

You said that you valued the King James version the most and that you thought the translations were inspired in how the KJV translated those other verses so I assumed you were not a universalist since one of the primary complaints we universalist have is how the King James translates words.  Most Eternal Torment believers strictly adhere to the King James version because it they believe its translation to be inspired also.  Furthermore, you said that you believe it to be translated different at the other verse location was accepted to you which is quite contrary to how the Concordant Method works in which a word is translated and used universally in sameness.  The Concordant Literal Translation uses such a method and that translation is used primarily (it seems) by universalists. 

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #228 on: July 26, 2009, 10:59:40 PM »
Ah...well all I can say is "I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever" is the correct translation for Psalm 23.

 :happygrin:

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #229 on: July 26, 2009, 11:13:05 PM »
Quote
So your of the believe that context creates the meaning of words and not instead that words create context?

Paul

We are talking about translating here.  So, yes, context is very important as to which meaning or shade of meaning you choose for a word.  I really like the King James the best of all the Bibles.

But, when I look at the Hebrew and Greek words, it gives a three dimensional quality to the English translation--because any translation is going to be degraded, by definition.

Ok, Molly, I thought you were a universalist.  I'm had the wrong impression.

Paul
Not sure how you came to that impression from this discussion, but I actually don't have any opinion about what happens to people after death other than Jesus has promised us eternal life.  God has not revealed much of anything else to me about it particularly.  It's not something that I think about often.

hey sis,
do you believe in eternal torment, or annihiliation then or...?
me is confused.  :winkgrin:
when you say "promised US eternal life"..
are you talking about ALL of mankind, as in eventually ALL of mankind will be reconciled..

???
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #230 on: July 26, 2009, 11:41:00 PM »
Ah...well all I can say is "I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever" is the correct translation for Psalm 23.

 :happygrin:

Well all I can say is that it isn't.  See how that works Molly, we both can't be right.

Paul

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #231 on: July 27, 2009, 12:30:01 AM »
willieH: Hi sister R... :hithere:

:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......

Amen sis...  :goodpost:

You are just a fountain of wisdom!  :teaching: I get blessed everytime I read your words...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #232 on: July 27, 2009, 12:31:35 AM »
Quote
hey sis,
do you believe in eternal torment, or annihiliation then or...?
me is confused.  
when you say "promised US eternal life"..
are you talking about ALL of mankind, as in eventually ALL of mankind will be reconciled..

???

All mankind?  I don't know the answer to that.  I see the arguments on here and they make sense to me intellectually, but I have no spiritual input on it.

I've always known God as love, never even heard about hell until I was a teenager and read Dante.  He struck me as nuts.  lol

I know that Jesus will save those who believe in him because he says so.  That's all I know for sure.

well, I can stretch it a little further than that from personal experience, but not much.

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #233 on: July 27, 2009, 12:41:33 AM »
You said that you valued the King James version the most and that you thought the translations were inspired in how the KJV translated those other verses so I assumed you were not a universalist since one of the primary complaints we universalist have is how the King James translates words.  Most Eternal Torment believers strictly adhere to the King James version because it they believe its translation to be inspired also.

Wow!  Not sure who or where you have gained this thinking Paul, but I have often (and daily still do), visited ET forums, and have found with most, that the KJV is NOT their favorite...

Most of them seem to prefer using the ESV, NIV and some, the NKJV...

The Concordant Literal Translation uses such a method and that translation is used primarily (it seems) by universalists

Again, I am an 8 year believer in the Salvation of ALL (don't like labels such as "Universalist"), and use NOTHING but the KJV... go figure...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #234 on: July 27, 2009, 12:44:05 AM »
Quote
hey sis,
do you believe in eternal torment, or annihiliation then or...?
me is confused.  
when you say "promised US eternal life"..
are you talking about ALL of mankind, as in eventually ALL of mankind will be reconciled..

???

All mankind?  I don't know the answer to that.  I see the arguments on here and they make sense to me intellectually, but I have no spiritual input on it.

I've always known God as love, never even heard about hell until I was a teenager and read Dante.  He struck me as nuts.  lol

I know that Jesus will save those who believe in him because he says so.  That's all I know for sure.

well, I can stretch it a little further than that from personal experience, but not much.


Ok, sis. Thanks for clarifying your views.
 :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #235 on: July 27, 2009, 12:44:17 AM »
You said that you valued the King James version the most and that you thought the translations were inspired in how the KJV translated those other verses so I assumed you were not a universalist since one of the primary complaints we universalist have is how the King James translates words.  Most Eternal Torment believers strictly adhere to the King James version because it they believe its translation to be inspired also.

Wow!  Not sure who or where you have gained this thinking Paul, but I have often (and daily still do), visited ET forums, and have found with most, that the KJV is NOT their favorite...

Most of them seem to prefer using the ESV, NIV and some, the NKJV...

The Concordant Literal Translation uses such a method and that translation is used primarily (it seems) by universalists

Again, I am an 8 year believer in the Salvation of ALL (don't like labels such as "Universalist"), and use NOTHING but the KJV... go figure...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Obviously, we encounter a very different crowd.  

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #236 on: July 27, 2009, 12:44:39 AM »
 :cloud9: Thanks Willie.........I am equally blessed reading your posts. And Sparrow, I am busy for the next couple of days, but I will do my best to explain whatever you ask me about.  :HeartThrob: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #237 on: July 27, 2009, 12:54:34 AM »
Quote
Ok, sis. Thanks for clarifying your views.

I will say one thing, though.  You might know from my past posts that I am surrounded by atheists and agnostics.  When I was in a lot of trouble recently and asked Jesus to send me legions of angels....they were among the ones who showed up.  :laughing7:
 

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #238 on: July 27, 2009, 12:55:42 AM »
You said that you valued the King James version the most and that you thought the translations were inspired in how the KJV translated those other verses so I assumed you were not a universalist since one of the primary complaints we universalist have is how the King James translates words.  Most Eternal Torment believers strictly adhere to the King James version because it they believe its translation to be inspired also.

Wow!  Not sure who or where you have gained this thinking Paul, but I have often (and daily still do), visited ET forums, and have found with most, that the KJV is NOT their favorite...

Most of them seem to prefer using the ESV, NIV and some, the NKJV...

The Concordant Literal Translation uses such a method and that translation is used primarily (it seems) by universalists

Again, I am an 8 year believer in the Salvation of ALL (don't like labels such as "Universalist"), and use NOTHING but the KJV... go figure...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Obviously, we encounter a very different crowd.  

Paul

Lol... the only bible I had was the KJV and God somehow brought me to the knowledge of UR.

Nothing is impossible with God.. :laughing7:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #239 on: July 27, 2009, 12:56:32 AM »
:cloud9: Thanks Willie.........I am equally blessed reading your posts. And Sparrow, I am busy for the next couple of days, but I will do my best to explain whatever you ask me about.  :HeartThrob: Blessings....

cool. Take your time with the first group of questions then, sis.
I appreciate it.
no rush.
 :icon_flower:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #240 on: July 27, 2009, 01:25:50 AM »
Quote
Ok, sis. Thanks for clarifying your views.

I will say one thing, though.  You might know from my past posts that I am surrounded by atheists and agnostics.  When I was in a lot of trouble recently and asked Jesus to send me legions of angels....they were among the ones who showed up.  :laughing7:
 

I don't doubt it.
God doesn't see labels.
He sees the heart.  :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #241 on: July 27, 2009, 01:29:46 AM »
You said that you valued the King James version the most and that you thought the translations were inspired in how the KJV translated those other verses so I assumed you were not a universalist since one of the primary complaints we universalist have is how the King James translates words.  Most Eternal Torment believers strictly adhere to the King James version because it they believe its translation to be inspired also.

Wow!  Not sure who or where you have gained this thinking Paul, but I have often (and daily still do), visited ET forums, and have found with most, that the KJV is NOT their favorite...

Most of them seem to prefer using the ESV, NIV and some, the NKJV...

The Concordant Literal Translation uses such a method and that translation is used primarily (it seems) by universalists

Again, I am an 8 year believer in the Salvation of ALL (don't like labels such as "Universalist"), and use NOTHING but the KJV... go figure...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Obviously, we encounter a very different crowd.  

Paul

Lol... the only bible I had was the KJV and God somehow brought me to the knowledge of UR.

Nothing is impossible with God.. :laughing7:

Oh, I'm not saying it is impossible.  I debated against UR from the KJV but still converted to UR before I had even known about the CLV.

Paul

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #242 on: July 27, 2009, 01:51:23 AM »
You said that you valued the King James version the most and that you thought the translations were inspired in how the KJV translated those other verses so I assumed you were not a universalist since one of the primary complaints we universalist have is how the King James translates words.  Most Eternal Torment believers strictly adhere to the King James version because it they believe its translation to be inspired also.

Wow!  Not sure who or where you have gained this thinking Paul, but I have often (and daily still do), visited ET forums, and have found with most, that the KJV is NOT their favorite...

Most of them seem to prefer using the ESV, NIV and some, the NKJV...

The Concordant Literal Translation uses such a method and that translation is used primarily (it seems) by universalists

Again, I am an 8 year believer in the Salvation of ALL (don't like labels such as "Universalist"), and use NOTHING but the KJV... go figure...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Obviously, we encounter a very different crowd.  

Paul

Lol... the only bible I had was the KJV and God somehow brought me to the knowledge of UR.

Nothing is impossible with God.. :laughing7:

Oh, I'm not saying it is impossible.  I debated against UR from the KJV but still converted to UR before I had even known about the CLV.

Paul

ohhh... :Sparkletooth: cool.

 :HeartThrob:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Shadow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #243 on: July 27, 2009, 01:54:47 PM »

Ok, Molly, I thought you were a universalist.  I'm had the wrong impression.

Paul

That's funny, I've always had the impression that Molly was'nt a universalist myself
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 03:13:09 PM by Shadow »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #244 on: July 27, 2009, 06:44:44 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......



Cardinal, why is not time also the measurement of thought? I appreciate that you have a personal definition of time and that it factors into your definition of timelessness, but I don't see any reason why it is, or should be the only one - especially since the scripture does not explicitly define time for us.

I see timelessness a LACK of thought, which to me IS a death.





« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 06:49:11 PM by Seth »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #245 on: July 27, 2009, 06:57:30 PM »
Time is linked to matter.
Time can only stop if there is no more matter.
There is some verse that states that God makes a new earth/universe.
For me that means a universe with time.
A completely redesigned world/universe wouldn't be a new but a different universe.
The dimensions of New Jerusalem sorta hint it's totally different.
So what does a new earth mean?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #246 on: July 27, 2009, 07:18:22 PM »
Time is linked to matter.
Time can only stop if there is no more matter.
There is some verse that states that God makes a new earth/universe.
For me that means a universe with time.
A completely redesigned world/universe wouldn't be a new but a different universe.
The dimensions of New Jerusalem sorta hint it's totally different.
So what does a new earth mean?

WW, I have heard, and seen evidence for (but so far am not decided) that "new heaven, and new earth" means new relationship between God and man. One of the text I saw was from a OT prophecy where God is speaking to Israel and he says "O Earth Earth Earth..."

BTW, regarding time's relationship to matter, I think that they relate to experience. In other words matter affects how we experience time, not as to whether it exists or not...




Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #247 on: July 27, 2009, 07:21:30 PM »
 to me, it means a whole new ETERNAL PERFECTED CREATION

    THAT DOES NOT EXIST RELATIVE TO TIME

      IT JUST IS as HE   IS    I  AM...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #248 on: July 27, 2009, 07:45:00 PM »
Sheila,

Do you think the lack of time is needed for perfection?
Personally I don't see why eternal life is worse or better with or without time.
Currently time works against us because we age and then die. God states He reduced the max. age to 120 years.
But what if we just keep getting older but always be in the prime of our life?
Who cares what your age is, if you are happy....
BTW I think the current creation is timeless too because every lady seems to be 30 years old when asked  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #249 on: July 27, 2009, 07:57:40 PM »
Currently time works against us because we age and then die. God states He reduced the max. age to 120 years.

Is that time working against us, or mortality?