Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 31942 times)

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Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #200 on: July 26, 2009, 03:23:07 AM »
I think it might be that we call things differently, but may have a similar understanding. What WillieH might call timelessness, I might call an infinitely higher and more  expansive dimension of time, yet if we talked it through, we might come to the same conclusions, like that consciousness and progress still occur in Eternity (to me that is a major agreement). Sometimes I have found in conversations that people might have a similar understanding but use different terms.

Yes! A thousand times yes...
That's what makes it so gut-wrenchingly difficult.. :laughing7: sometimes to talk about stuff.
Because two people may very well be talking about the exact same thing, yet the words are a little different and the meanings SEEM different, but they're not...


ahhhh.....for some reason, it reminds me of that feeling you get when you are in a dream and you are trying to run. Your legs feel like they're stuck in mud. I don't know why it makes me think of that, but it does.

I know, that doesn't make a bit of sense... stop laughing.  :laughing7:

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Zeek

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #201 on: July 26, 2009, 04:25:57 AM »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #202 on: July 26, 2009, 11:04:58 AM »
I know, that doesn't make a bit of sense... stop laughing.  :laughing7:
:laughing7: :laugh: :LH: :pointlaugh: :laughhand: :rolllol: :LH:

But yes; misunderstanding is often the cause of trouble.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #203 on: July 26, 2009, 05:30:47 PM »
More on the time issue for those of us that believe that Time always exists:

Psa 89:29  His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

Isa 57:15  For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place,

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #204 on: July 26, 2009, 05:38:27 PM »
 :cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #205 on: July 26, 2009, 05:53:17 PM »
Psalm 118:24
This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.


1 Thessalonians 5:5
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


Psalm 16:11
Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore.



« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 06:04:09 PM by Molly »

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #206 on: July 26, 2009, 07:09:33 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......

I just don't get that Cardinal.  I haven't seen any scriptural support for that.  I also don't see where TIME is a measurement.  That doesn't make sense to me.  To me we measure Time.  When you say time is the measurement of death, that to me sounds like saying length is the measurement of feet.  When the reality to me is that feet is the measurement of length.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #207 on: July 26, 2009, 07:13:23 PM »
If we say that God is Eternal then we say God exists in Time.  For time is part of the definition of eternal:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eternity

Eternal means indefinate time with no beginning and no ending. 

Time is an INTEGRAL part of the definition of Eternal. 

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #208 on: July 26, 2009, 07:26:45 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......

I just don't get that Cardinal.  I haven't seen any scriptural support for that.  I also don't see where TIME is a measurement.  That doesn't make sense to me.  To me we measure Time.  When you say time is the measurement of death, that to me sounds like saying length is the measurement of feet.  When the reality to me is that feet is the measurement of length.

Paul
How do you measure infinity?

Time has a beginning and an end, but..

 ..I will dwell in the house of the LORD
         Forever.


--Psa 23

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #209 on: July 26, 2009, 07:28:49 PM »
If timelessness has any reality it would be to what is dead.  That which is deceased would be in timelessness since there is NO experience and would be contrary to what is LIFE - where Time is experienced.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #210 on: July 26, 2009, 07:34:08 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......

I just don't get that Cardinal.  I haven't seen any scriptural support for that.  I also don't see where TIME is a measurement.  That doesn't make sense to me.  To me we measure Time.  When you say time is the measurement of death, that to me sounds like saying length is the measurement of feet.  When the reality to me is that feet is the measurement of length.

Paul
How do you measure infinity?

Time has a beginning and an end, but..

 ..I will dwell in the house of the LORD
         Forever.


--Psa 23

Time has NO beginning and end only our world (Kosmos) does.  Infinity is not measured but Infinity is TIME.

If Time could not be infinite then we need to rewrite our dictionarys because this dictionary couldn't contain defintion #3 if time had a beginning and end.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infinity
3. infinite space, time, or quantity

Paul

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #211 on: July 26, 2009, 07:38:12 PM »
How do you measure infinity?

Time has a beginning and an end, but..

 ..I will dwell in the house of the LORD
         Forever.


--Psa 23
Forever is Yowm.
Bit like the Aion story. Can mean a life time in this case.

Molly every thought about looking at time/eternity/timeless like the string theory....?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #212 on: July 26, 2009, 07:55:29 PM »
How do you measure infinity?

Time has a beginning and an end, but..

 ..I will dwell in the house of the LORD
         Forever.


--Psa 23
Forever is Yowm.
Bit like the Aion story. Can mean a life time in this case.

Molly every thought about looking at time/eternity/timeless like the string theory....?

I'm not sure Molly realizes that the same word translated as "forever" in the verse you quoted from is translated as "long time" in the verse below:

Lam 5:20  Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?

From the Bishops bible:

Psa 23:6  (23:5) Truely felicitie and mercie shal folowe me all the dayes of my lyfe: and I wyll dwell in the house of God for a long tyme.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #213 on: July 26, 2009, 08:11:41 PM »
How do you measure infinity?

Time has a beginning and an end, but..

 ..I will dwell in the house of the LORD
         Forever.


--Psa 23
Forever is Yowm.
Bit like the Aion story. Can mean a life time in this case.

Molly every thought about looking at time/eternity/timeless like the string theory....?


I will dwell in the house of the LORD

"forever"

'ôrek yôm

length of days=forever

That's what it means literally, it is a length of days where the length is prolonged to  forever.


I really don't know enough about string theory to comment, except that anything based on Einstein is a dead end, as it was always meant to be.  Einstein and his handlers took physics in the wrong direction--on purpose.


"For more than a generation, physicists have been chasing a will-o'-the-wisp called string theory. The beginning of this chase marked the end of what had been three-quarters of a century of progress. Dozens of string-theory conferences have been held, hundreds of new Ph.D.s have been minted, and thousands of papers have been written. Yet, for all this activity, not a single new testable prediction has been made, not a single theoretical puzzle has been solved. In fact, there is no theory so farójust a set of hunches and calculations suggesting that a theory might exist. And, even if it does, this theory will come in such a bewildering number of versions that it will be of no practical use: a Theory of Nothing." -- Jim Holt.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 08:16:38 PM by Molly »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #214 on: July 26, 2009, 08:13:21 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......

I just don't get that Cardinal.  I haven't seen any scriptural support for that.  I also don't see where TIME is a measurement.  That doesn't make sense to me.  To me we measure Time.  When you say time is the measurement of death, that to me sounds like saying length is the measurement of feet.  When the reality to me is that feet is the measurement of length.

Paul

 :cloud9: Hi Paul.......here is a re-post of a teaching He gave me that explains it a little........


There are 4 parts to the soul of man, not three (which is for some reason taught by many) which correspond to the 4 rivers that came out of the garden, the four corners of our earth (man was taken from the dust/earth). The four parts are mind, will, emotions and desires. When He said He would call them out of the four corners of the earth, He also meant out of OUR ways to be centered into His ways, our new heart, the mind of Christ. These 4 become one AGAIN in Revelation, thru the processing of the walking out of the cross. The desire of all nations shall come, and is coming now.

There are four horns on the altar because of this, on which we are tied down with cords of love which cannot be broken. Horns mean power. These 4 horns, make up one of the crowns we must lay down (on the altar). The crowns had points or "horns"; each point or ray, (think of her crown in Rev.) meant that the one who wore it was given dominion over that kingdom, which is what the points stood for. This is also why there were 4 watches in night, which were composed of 3 hours each, so 3 times 4 = 12, the twelve hours of darkness. So there are 4 parts to the nighttime/darkness of our souls.

The name/natures/life experiences of 12 tribes are part of the Christ that is formed in us; so are the name/natures/life experiences of the 12 apostles. What John saw took place IN THE TEMPLE. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost?"

These 2 (two is the number of witness) twelves, are the 24 elders around the throne. Our heart becomes His throne, when He is ruling in it completely. Interestingly, when you look up the word for elder, it runs into a meaning of "rays", as in rays of light, and horns, as above.

Those under the old covenant represent the 12 hours of darkness, for their light (the Christ) had not yet come. They are the walls/gates of of the city = the depth and height. The priests ate the shewbread and bread speaks of the Word. We are a priestly nation, a peculiar or chosen people, who are called to eat the bread in the light of the candlestick (the Spirit of Christ). Each one of their names means something spiritually to us. For example, Judah means praise and it is in the inner court experience of the baptism in the Spirit, that we learn what it means to praise God thru our spirits. Simeon, means to hear, and it is also hear that we learn to listen for the voice of our Father.

The 12 apostles represent the 12 hours of light, and are the foundation of the city = width and breadth. 12 times 12 =144,000 which is the government of God established in the earth (Adam was taken from the dust of the earth) with the Christ, which is the Chief cornerstone. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH, as it is in heaven. G-d changes the lump before He changes the whole; He doesn't change the world, then change the individuals. He changes the individuals from the inside out, THEN He will use them to change the world.

Together, with the light of the Christ, they make up the new DAY of the Lord (12 plus 12 = 24), when the day star arises in our hearts, to sit upon His throne in us. Another way to say it is, when He resurrects IN US, having put all powers and principalities IN US, under His feet (His foundation), IN US. This is the full measure and stature of Christ. This soulish body is the tomb He lays in and we want this millstone, the carnal mind that has bound us to the works of the flesh governed over by the yoke of the law, to give up the ghost, so that the hand of God can move it out of it's place, breaking this, the last seal on the tomb, so that He can resurrect up out of the flesh of us. The last enemy to be overcome is DEATH.

This is why John lost his head. The Lord told me that He has been forming these natures of the Christ of these 24, and that they have been entering the ark, by TWO'S, and that John comes to bring Benjamin, the son of my right hand, the finishing work. John is the friend of the bridegroom because he hears the voice of the bridegroom, and his voice comes to do just what John the beloved, the revelator/the unveiler, did.

Which is; pronounce the judgments upon the flesh/church/woman covering up the Christ/son, which is keeping the veil of this flesh from being rent, ie. the child from being born. Why is he the friend of the bridegroom? No greater LOVE than any man than this, that he lay down his life (the soulish life) for his friend. He said that he hears His voice and for this reasons his joy is full.

His joy is full because if the part of the Christ of John the beloved has been formed in us, then He can speak what needs to be spoken to RELEASE the Lord from our midst! Halleluah! The friend of the bridegroom comes to bring forth the bride, ie. the redeemed soul that He can come forth thru and in, the wheel within a wheel. Joy cometh in the morning, because the day star arises in the morning. It is righteous (outer court), peace (inner court) and joy (Holy of Holies).

For our ashes, He gives us beauty. The altar had a grate (corresponds to the lattice in Song of Sol. = in-part), and this is why those souls were stated to be UNDER the altar in Rev., crying not for vengance as the blood of Adam would dictate, but asking when the rest of their brethren (which is all humanity) would be killed as they were, ie. consumed by Him as by fire, His love. In the previous chapter, it states these are those that are REDEEMED from among men. These are those (us, God willing) that take place in the first resurrection, loving not our lives (soulish life, ie. the life the soul thinks it has, which is really death, for to be carnally minded is death) unto the death (of the cross = 4 horns of altar).

Everything He did we walk out spiritually; if it were not so, and we were there already by virtue of Him doing it all, then we would have to take out all the feasts that we have partaken of spiritually already, and a great many scriptures, such as work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. He is the forerunner beyond the veil, meaning first.

 First means there must be more to FOLLOW, not more already there. This body is the means of getting there, for without it there is no flesh to lay down, which is why they (without bodies) cannot be made perfect or complete. Now I know that we are already one with Him in Spirit, but it's the rest of our triune being that must come into union with Him in reality = Truth. This is how He showed me we are to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, ie. we are by the power of His Spirit, making heaven and earth come into agreement/covenant/oneness.

Yes, obedience is better than sacrifice, but it takes both the old covenant (12 tribe names/natures = sacrifice of flesh) and the new (12 apostles names/natures = obedience of Spirit) to produce the new DAY, the DAY OF THE LORD, the day of no part darkness. Halleluyah!
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #215 on: July 26, 2009, 08:21:37 PM »
How do you measure infinity?

Time has a beginning and an end, but..

 ..I will dwell in the house of the LORD
         Forever.


--Psa 23
Forever is Yowm.
Bit like the Aion story. Can mean a life time in this case.

Molly every thought about looking at time/eternity/timeless like the string theory....?


I will dwell in the house of the LORD

"forever"

'ôrek yôm

length of days=forever

That's what it means literally, it is a length of days where the length is prolonged to  forever.


I really don't know enough about string theory to comment, except that anything based on Einstein is a dead end, as it was always meant to be.  Einstein and his handlers took physics in the wrong direction--on purpose.


"For more than a generation, physicists have been chasing a will-o'-the-wisp called string theory. The beginning of this chase marked the end of what had been three-quarters of a century of progress. Dozens of string-theory conferences have been held, hundreds of new Ph.D.s have been minted, and thousands of papers have been written. Yet, for all this activity, not a single new testable prediction has been made, not a single theoretical puzzle has been solved. In fact, there is no theory so farójust a set of hunches and calculations suggesting that a theory might exist. And, even if it does, this theory will come in such a bewildering number of versions that it will be of no practical use: a Theory of Nothing." -- Jim Holt.

Molly it is the same phrase used in Lamentations 5:20 so it would have to mean forever there as well.

See:

Psa 23:6  SurelyH389 goodnessH2896 and mercyH2617 shall followH7291 me allH3605 the daysH3117 of my life:H2416 and I will dwellH3427 in the houseH1004 of the LORDH3068 for ever.H753 H3117

Lam 5:20  WhereforeH4100 dost thou forgetH7911 us for ever,H5331 and forsakeH5800 us so longH753 time?H3117

Notice that not even the King James could stick to their definition. 

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #216 on: July 26, 2009, 08:24:27 PM »
:cloud9: Before you rejoice over that one, you need to understand that the 'day' of the Lord IS the Lord, and that we are all 'days', and if pressing into Him are becoming as days in His sight.

And as I said before, time is the measurement of death, and there is NO DEATH in His Spirit, therefore NO TIME. Blessings......

I just don't get that Cardinal.  I haven't seen any scriptural support for that.  I also don't see where TIME is a measurement.  That doesn't make sense to me.  To me we measure Time.  When you say time is the measurement of death, that to me sounds like saying length is the measurement of feet.  When the reality to me is that feet is the measurement of length.

Paul

 :cloud9: Hi Paul.......here is a re-post of a teaching He gave me that explains it a little........


There are 4 parts to the soul of man, not three (which is for some reason taught by many) which correspond to the 4 rivers that came out of the garden, the four corners of our earth (man was taken from the dust/earth). The four parts are mind, will, emotions and desires. When He said He would call them out of the four corners of the earth, He also meant out of OUR ways to be centered into His ways, our new heart, the mind of Christ. These 4 become one AGAIN in Revelation, thru the processing of the walking out of the cross. The desire of all nations shall come, and is coming now.

There are four horns on the altar because of this, on which we are tied down with cords of love which cannot be broken. Horns mean power. These 4 horns, make up one of the crowns we must lay down (on the altar). The crowns had points or "horns"; each point or ray, (think of her crown in Rev.) meant that the one who wore it was given dominion over that kingdom, which is what the points stood for. This is also why there were 4 watches in night, which were composed of 3 hours each, so 3 times 4 = 12, the twelve hours of darkness. So there are 4 parts to the nighttime/darkness of our souls.

The name/natures/life experiences of 12 tribes are part of the Christ that is formed in us; so are the name/natures/life experiences of the 12 apostles. What John saw took place IN THE TEMPLE. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Ghost?"

These 2 (two is the number of witness) twelves, are the 24 elders around the throne. Our heart becomes His throne, when He is ruling in it completely. Interestingly, when you look up the word for elder, it runs into a meaning of "rays", as in rays of light, and horns, as above.

Those under the old covenant represent the 12 hours of darkness, for their light (the Christ) had not yet come. They are the walls/gates of of the city = the depth and height. The priests ate the shewbread and bread speaks of the Word. We are a priestly nation, a peculiar or chosen people, who are called to eat the bread in the light of the candlestick (the Spirit of Christ). Each one of their names means something spiritually to us. For example, Judah means praise and it is in the inner court experience of the baptism in the Spirit, that we learn what it means to praise God thru our spirits. Simeon, means to hear, and it is also hear that we learn to listen for the voice of our Father.

The 12 apostles represent the 12 hours of light, and are the foundation of the city = width and breadth. 12 times 12 =144,000 which is the government of God established in the earth (Adam was taken from the dust of the earth) with the Christ, which is the Chief cornerstone. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, IN EARTH, as it is in heaven. G-d changes the lump before He changes the whole; He doesn't change the world, then change the individuals. He changes the individuals from the inside out, THEN He will use them to change the world.

Together, with the light of the Christ, they make up the new DAY of the Lord (12 plus 12 = 24), when the day star arises in our hearts, to sit upon His throne in us. Another way to say it is, when He resurrects IN US, having put all powers and principalities IN US, under His feet (His foundation), IN US. This is the full measure and stature of Christ. This soulish body is the tomb He lays in and we want this millstone, the carnal mind that has bound us to the works of the flesh governed over by the yoke of the law, to give up the ghost, so that the hand of God can move it out of it's place, breaking this, the last seal on the tomb, so that He can resurrect up out of the flesh of us. The last enemy to be overcome is DEATH.

This is why John lost his head. The Lord told me that He has been forming these natures of the Christ of these 24, and that they have been entering the ark, by TWO'S, and that John comes to bring Benjamin, the son of my right hand, the finishing work. John is the friend of the bridegroom because he hears the voice of the bridegroom, and his voice comes to do just what John the beloved, the revelator/the unveiler, did.

Which is; pronounce the judgments upon the flesh/church/woman covering up the Christ/son, which is keeping the veil of this flesh from being rent, ie. the child from being born. Why is he the friend of the bridegroom? No greater LOVE than any man than this, that he lay down his life (the soulish life) for his friend. He said that he hears His voice and for this reasons his joy is full.

His joy is full because if the part of the Christ of John the beloved has been formed in us, then He can speak what needs to be spoken to RELEASE the Lord from our midst! Halleluah! The friend of the bridegroom comes to bring forth the bride, ie. the redeemed soul that He can come forth thru and in, the wheel within a wheel. Joy cometh in the morning, because the day star arises in the morning. It is righteous (outer court), peace (inner court) and joy (Holy of Holies).

For our ashes, He gives us beauty. The altar had a grate (corresponds to the lattice in Song of Sol. = in-part), and this is why those souls were stated to be UNDER the altar in Rev., crying not for vengance as the blood of Adam would dictate, but asking when the rest of their brethren (which is all humanity) would be killed as they were, ie. consumed by Him as by fire, His love. In the previous chapter, it states these are those that are REDEEMED from among men. These are those (us, God willing) that take place in the first resurrection, loving not our lives (soulish life, ie. the life the soul thinks it has, which is really death, for to be carnally minded is death) unto the death (of the cross = 4 horns of altar).

Everything He did we walk out spiritually; if it were not so, and we were there already by virtue of Him doing it all, then we would have to take out all the feasts that we have partaken of spiritually already, and a great many scriptures, such as work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. He is the forerunner beyond the veil, meaning first.

 First means there must be more to FOLLOW, not more already there. This body is the means of getting there, for without it there is no flesh to lay down, which is why they (without bodies) cannot be made perfect or complete. Now I know that we are already one with Him in Spirit, but it's the rest of our triune being that must come into union with Him in reality = Truth. This is how He showed me we are to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth, ie. we are by the power of His Spirit, making heaven and earth come into agreement/covenant/oneness.

Yes, obedience is better than sacrifice, but it takes both the old covenant (12 tribe names/natures = sacrifice of flesh) and the new (12 apostles names/natures = obedience of Spirit) to produce the new DAY, the DAY OF THE LORD, the day of no part darkness. Halleluyah!

Sorry, Cardinal I just don't see some of those connections your coming to.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #217 on: July 26, 2009, 08:35:32 PM »
Molly it is the same phrase used in Lamentations 5:20 so it would have to mean forever there as well.

Quote
See:

Psa 23:6  SurelyH389 goodnessH2896 and mercyH2617 shall followH7291 me allH3605 the daysH3117 of my life:H2416 and I will dwellH3427 in the houseH1004 of the LORDH3068 for ever.H753 H3117

Lam 5:20  WhereforeH4100 dost thou forgetH7911 us for ever,H5331 and forsakeH5800 us so longH753 time?H3117

Notice that not even the King James could stick to their definition. 

Paul

Yes, it's a prolonged length of days up to forever.


H753
ארך
'ôrek
o'-rek
From H748; length: -  + for ever, length, long.



H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.



In Lamentations, the time might feel like forever, but we know it won't be--ever been in excruciating pain?  Feels like forever.  But, it will end.

In Psalms, King David is definitely talking about forever in the sense that we understand it--so long that time no longer matters.

I see no problem with the King James translators here--they have spiritually discerned the right translation in my opinion.




Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #218 on: July 26, 2009, 08:41:53 PM »
 :cloud9: Hey Molly........did you happen to notice one the meanings of that word is ELDER?   :winkgrin: Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #219 on: July 26, 2009, 08:44:17 PM »
Molly it is the same phrase used in Lamentations 5:20 so it would have to mean forever there as well.

Quote
See:

Psa 23:6  SurelyH389 goodnessH2896 and mercyH2617 shall followH7291 me allH3605 the daysH3117 of my life:H2416 and I will dwellH3427 in the houseH1004 of the LORDH3068 for ever.H753 H3117

Lam 5:20  WhereforeH4100 dost thou forgetH7911 us for ever,H5331 and forsakeH5800 us so longH753 time?H3117

Notice that not even the King James could stick to their definition. 

Paul

Yes, it's a prolonged length of days up to forever.


H753
ארך
'ôrek
o'-rek
From H748; length: -  + for ever, length, long.



H3117
יום
yôm
yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.



In Lamentations, the time might feel like forever, but we know it won't be--ever been in excruciating pain?  Feels like forever.  But, it will end.

In Psalms, King David is definitely talking about forever in the sense that we understand it--so long that time no longer matters.

I see no problem with the King James translators here--they have spiritually discerned the right translation in my opinion.





What words in the verse are giving you the conclusion that they should be translated differently for each one?
 

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #220 on: July 26, 2009, 08:46:51 PM »
:cloud9: Hey Molly........did you happen to notice one the meanings of that word is ELDER?   :winkgrin: Blessings...

Cool! :laughing7:

Yom is a special word.  God only creates in yom.


So the evening and the morning were the first day.

--Gen 1

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #221 on: July 26, 2009, 09:07:06 PM »
Quote
What words in the verse are giving you the conclusion that they should be translated differently for each one?
 

Paul

The context. 

The translator has to pick the right shade of meaning to fit the context.

God has a forever covenant with King David, which, of course, relates to Jesus.



25And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it for ever, and do as thou hast said.

 26And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.

 27For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.


--2 Sam 7






trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #222 on: July 26, 2009, 10:10:25 PM »
Quote
What words in the verse are giving you the conclusion that they should be translated differently for each one?
 

Paul

The context. 

The translator has to pick the right shade of meaning to fit the context.

God has a forever covenant with King David, which, of course, relates to Jesus.



25And now, O LORD God, the word that thou hast spoken concerning thy servant, and concerning his house, establish it for ever, and do as thou hast said.

 26And let thy name be magnified for ever, saying, The LORD of hosts is the God over Israel: and let the house of thy servant David be established before thee.

 27For thou, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, hast revealed to thy servant, saying, I will build thee an house: therefore hath thy servant found in his heart to pray this prayer unto thee.


--2 Sam 7







So your of the believe that context creates the meaning of words and not instead that words create context?

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #223 on: July 26, 2009, 10:19:38 PM »
Quote
So your of the believe that context creates the meaning of words and not instead that words create context?

Paul

We are talking about translating here.  So, yes, context is very important as to which meaning or shade of meaning you choose for a word.  I really like the King James the best of all the Bibles.

But, when I look at the Hebrew and Greek words, it gives a three dimensional quality to the English translation--because any translation is going to be degraded, by definition.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #224 on: July 26, 2009, 10:24:56 PM »
Cardinal, can you explain what you mean paragraph by paragraph? Would you be willing to do that?
(I don't want to impose! If you are busy and just don't have time, don't worry about it.. I totally understand.  :HeartThrob: I'm asking a lot, I know. Maybe we could come back to this someday or something, no biggie. Don't feel pressured... lol.)  :HeartThrob:

If so, I'll start with this:

There are 4 parts to the soul of man, not three (which is for some reason taught by many) which correspond to the 4 rivers that came out of the garden, the four corners of our earth (man was taken from the dust/earth). The four parts are mind, will, emotions and desires. When He said He would call them out of the four corners of the earth, He also meant out of OUR ways to be centered into His ways, our new heart, the mind of Christ. These 4 become one AGAIN in Revelation, thru the processing of the walking out of the cross. The desire of all nations shall come, and is coming now.


Ok, first:
so you are saying that we are made up of our mind, will, emotions and desires.
But doesn't the "mind" automatically include the will, emotions and desires?
How are the will, emotions and desires set apart as being different than the mind?
Doesn't the mind encompass all three?
If not..
what then, is the "mind"?

You also said the "new heart"...
where does the "heart" fit into the four listed above?
So are we mind and heart?
mind, heart, spirit, will, emotions, desires.....

What is this "four"?
I'm confused.

secondly...
What do you percieve to be the "walking out of the cross"?

thirdly...
What do you see as the "desire of all nations"?
What is the desire?

If you want to cut and paste this into a new thread, that's fine with me...
This could take awhile.  :laughing7:

AGAIN... no pressure! I just thought I'd start with something in case you had time.

Thanks!  :icon_flower:
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 10:44:32 PM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.