willieH: Hi trettep...
Thanks for your permission Paul (not that I needed it)...
You said that timelessness would demands a frozen state of inactivity. That is how I see it also.
That is just opinion made of TIME from an (limited/finite) observational point WITHIN it...
One can be amidst the OCEAN and look in any direction, and see NO END or BEGINNING to it... that does not mean the OCEAN is FOREVER... nor does it mean that it hasn't any boundaries, whatsoever...
"TIMELESSNESS" just demands that NOW not be measured in terms of past, present, future
... which is the only way we as finites are able to observe... and TIME, within its PROGRESSION, takes ALL THINGS within IT, from a "BEGINNING" to an "END"... rather, the ETERNAL takes all positions within TIME and IS SIMULATANEOULY among them... as I explain below with John 3:13
-- read it... it is informative.
Which is WHY CHRIST
(who has no beginning or end
-- Heb 13:8
the BEGINNING and END
of ALL THINGS -- Rev 1:8 -- 1:11 -- 21:6 -- 22:13 -- Col 1:17
Beginning and End
of what? Of ALL THINGS and their involvement in TIME
which is the EXPERIENTIAL realm of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...JESUS
noted that: "BEFORE Abraham WAS, ...I AM"
...these are 2 different positions noted here: (1) Before
Abraham had his life experience in TIME... (2) CHRIST IS
had been noting the "born again" teaching, and Nicodemus was incredulous at the proposal... and then JESUS
said -- "Art thou a MASTER of Israel, and knowest not THESE THINGS?"
-- Expectant of Nicodemus to grasp the concepts that He just told him...
He then noted to Nicodemus that it was enough for him to BELIEVE
"earthly things", and that when told, he had trouble with THAT! ...and then noted that the telling of "Heavenly things" would stretch him beyond his capabilty to "BELIEVE
"...John 3:12 I have told you of EARTHLY THINGS and ye BELIEVE NOT... HOW shall ye BELIEVE if I tell you HEAVENLY THINGS?
"... which means no
"HEAVENLY THINGS" had been expressed...
So the concepts of Heaven from an "Earthly position" would be hard to BELIEVE
(I say it encompasses the TRUE unending, unbeginning state of NOW... without
element of TIME, as present, ...yet maintaining the animation of LIFE and progression... which is neither "forward or backward", but ...IS
... a HEAVENLY
THING... which men such as Nicodemus or ourselves
are unable to grasp.)
TIME's TEMPORAL DEATHLY motion
of NOW, takes all things within it, through the processes of G & E... part of which is the result of DEATH within "NOW", ...where LIFE is ORDAINED to ETERNALLY BE
is also noted as becoming a little LOWER than the angels for the sufferING
(motion/progression) ending in DEATH... and that ETERNAL COMPLETION was accomplished within CHRIST's
involvement in TIME... Heb 2:9-10
All the while of His "sufferING
" in TIME, He noted that He was ALREADY
In the following examination of -- John 3:13
notes during His experience IN
and WITH TIME
-- No MAN hath ASCENDED up INTO Heaven, but He that CAME DOWN from Heaven, even the Son of MAN which ...IS... in Heaven...
He is therein, ...naming Himself:(1)
already "hath ascended" -- future
"came" down -- past
"IS" in Heaven -- present
Which displays that an ETERNAL entity IS NOT confined by the PROGRESSION of TIME as are we... and EXISTS in all portions of it (as finites observe time - past/present/future) SIMULTANEOUSLY
This is why I said that Time is As God is.
statement trettep... please brother trettep, ...note the book, chapter & verse, where it is SAID that: "Time is As God is"
For God is the sustaining force for everything - thus while everything is sustaining it would mean that Time marches continues. This is why Longsuffering and Patience etc... require Time.
And YET ANOTHER... Where is it said in the Scripture that "LONGSUFFERING and PATIENCE (which are the same thing) require TIME"
We observe these things IN TIME as members OF TIME, but the concepts of ETERNITY are not based upon TIME, and are NOT defined in terms of TIME.
GOD is not subject to TIME... He created it... and shall END it... for its purpose
will have been COMPLETED... That does not mean that its MEMORY is dispensed, ...just that its MOTION which decays all within it, shall CEASE.
-- that Heaven and Earth shall
PASS AWAY, yet My WORDS
shall NOT PASS AWAY...Rev 21:4
-- notes the NEGATIVE things of TIME (that which occured within the DAYS of MAN) shall end and PASS AWAY... With
the Heaven and Earth which CHRIST
ALL these things
which have occurred in DEFILED realm of "TIME" (which has beginning and end)... are not to enter the UNDEFILED realm of ETERNITY...
In the end, as with many observations... both positions can be BELIEVED... neither are pivotal elements of the GOSPEL
... so as you are so moved, back to the topic...