Personal Savior?

[Seth]

we will all LIVE in the MOMENT and behold it, NOW... it will not be elusively gone in a wink of an eye, as the "clock ticks" but remain joy, everlasting...

WillieH, I totally agree with you. I just don't see that "time" needs to end in order to make that so. We already live in the moment and we also behold it right now. But we also behold joy that has gone before. I remember the birth of my daughter. That is a joy that is in my memory, and it is past, but I still behold it and experience the joy of it.

What I believe will be forgotten will be the pain (forgotten in the sense of pain not bringing us into her grip) and what will be left is understanding.

We agree about progression. You had said: I agree that there must be "progression" in Eternity otherwise everything would be "frozen" -- without activity. A progression is nothing more than a movement that occurs in stages. The "movement" is actually an illusion created by our memory of "now" experiences in sucession. Everything is now. HOWEVER, what happens is that we EXPERIENCE the progression as a successive series of experiences, in and through our ability to recall what happened.

Time will not be erased or discarded, because time is simply the regard we have for the experiences that occur in the now. That is all time is and that is all progression is. Otherwise you are completely right: the converse is a state of inactivity, frozen, either all experiences at once (huh?) or no experiences at all (huh?).

The Joy Everlasting will be retained in our knowledge AS Eternity progresses. I see time in that, since time is simply our beholding of the progress of existence.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul... 

You get more stubborn with each post, bro.

Willie, a day is not 24 hours.  A day is 12 hours.  Light is the measurement for measuring the day.  There cannot be more than 12 hours in a day.   See your confusing measurement and time.  Were talking scripture, willie, you won't find an hour mentioned more than twelve in the scriptures.

No you are just TALKING... you seldom note SCRIPTURE, just make false statements which are NOT in SCRIPTURE and when you do note things that are actually noted in the WORD, within your own babble, ...you exaggerate that which IS said in it...

Trying to refer to a DAY as 12 hours in length... which is foolish.  CHRIST noted there are 12 hours in DAY -- John 11:9 -- because He was speaking that men can profitably DO THINGS in the LIGHT, that they cannot DO in the DARK, ...for the will STUMBLE in the dark... while alluding to His presence as that profitable LIGHT in which they might gain by the LIGHT of His presence...

Earlier in the context where JESUS noted there are "12 hours in a DAY", -- John 11:6 -- it was noted that He abode 2 DAYS in the same place... does that mean to you that he went ELSEWHERE during the NIGHT, trettep?  And only "hung out" during the DAY? 

Let's face it brother trettep, ...you are just being completely ridiculous now, in order to maintain a ridiculous viewpoint which only entertains TIME as an entity that occurs during the 12 hours of DAYLIGHT...    And that a "DAY" is just the DAYLIGHT portion...  -->

A DAY is composed of EVENING ...AND... MORNING... there are 12 hours of DAYLIGHT in HALF a "DAY"... the other HALF of the DAY is NIGHT... and 12 hours within IT as well...

I guess you don't get much SLEEP there doya trettep?   Since there is NO "TIME" during the NIGHT (because Scripture doesn't note "NIGHT" TIME)... as for me, I get a good EIGHT HOURS per night... but let it be known that I do feel compassion for INSOMINIACS such as yourself, which cannot get ANY SLEEPTIME, since you don't believe that TIME does NOT exist during NON-DAYLIGHT periods... 

As you see it, (because there is no DAYLIGHT in the NIGHT, and the Scripture only notes 12 hours in a DAY") there are therefore NO HOURS in the NIGHT, and the NIGHT does not count as TIME... nor CONTAIN TIME...  (Hope you don't get any graveyard shifts, you won't be recieving a very big paycheck  )... 

Btw... Are you gonna "fess-up" to your other false notations?    Or just continue to add to them... 

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you get that willie?  We are to understand God by the things that are MADE in this creation (kosmos).  Now where is timelessness to be understood by the things that are made?

By the "TEMPORAL state" in which the things that are MADE, participate and then FADE AWAY to DEATH... which "TEMPORAL state" happens to MARK TIME...

By the TIMELESS ONE who MADE THEM and PRECEEDED THEM and IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, ...before they became entities within the CREATION of TIME... for the WORD made all that was MADE... to include the DAYS of TIME, and simultaneously, within that TIME, ...brought forth the EARTH and HEAVENS, as well as ALL that in them ARE... uhhh... did you get that trettep? 

The TEMPORAL things that are MADE are evidences of the ETERNAL which ALWAYS IS... which is why we are confined to this PUNY little planet which is INSIGNIFICANT and INVISIBLE amongst an UNENDINGLY VAST UNIVERSE... uhhh, ...did you get that trettep?

The things MADE are evidences of the invisible ETERNALLY LIVING SPIRIT... for they are REFLECTIONS of it, ...IMAGES... which are projected into PHYSICALITY which IN TIME, ...are PASSING AWAY in their VAPOROUS and TEMPORAL existence... to DEATH in TIME...

Name ONE LIVING THING in TIME, ...outside the Earth and Stars... which has LIVED and MAINTAINED its existence, continuously since it's beginning...

Can you tell me what is made by which I should understand timelessness?

I could speak TRUTH till I was out of TIME... and you would still ARGUE against it trettep.  Though you are a nice guy, ...you have a VERY stubborn spirit... which fights against LOGIC as well as speaks UNSCRIPTURAL statements, yet requires SCRIPTURE from others...

What is "MADE" is the CLEAR evidence of a MAKER which PRECEEDED all of this... of course that is to simple for you to understand, as you are far too complex in your self ordination as a "teacher"...

Such as these type of stances must equate that most of the MEN which were "begat" as noted in Scripture, must've  been "begatted" by supernatural means since rarely are WOMEN ever mentioned in the GENEOLOGIES... is that your stance trettep?  Something like the "12 hours in a day" thing?   Since no women were mentioned, they must not have been taking part in the "begatting" thing -- eh?

Think about yourself and your positions trettep... I don't condemn you for your positions, (though I DO see them as quite stubborn), ...just find them often clinging to ILLOGICAL and UNSCRIPTURAL... self observations... instead of REASONING reasonably... you make a day and TIME, confined to DAYLIGHT hours...



...willieH 

[Zeek]

willieH: Hi Paul... 

You get more ridiculous with each post, bro.

Willie, a day is not 24 hours.  A day is 12 hours.  Light is the measurement for measuring the day.  There cannot be more than 12 hours in a day.   See your confusing measurement and time.  Were talking scripture, willie, you won't find an hour mentioned more than twelve in the scriptures.

No you are just TALKING... you seldom note SCRIPTURE, just make false statements which are NOT in SCRIPTURE and when you do note things that are actually noted in the WORD, within your own babble, ...you exaggerate that which IS said in it...

Trying to refer to a DAY as 12 hours in length... which is foolish.  CHRIST noted there are 12 hours in DAY -- John 11:9 -- because He was speaking that men can profitably DO THINGS in the LIGHT, that they cannot DO in the DARK, ...for the will STUMBLE in the dark... while alluding to His presence as that profitable LIGHT in which they might gain by the LIGHT of His presence...

Earlier in the context where JESUS noted there are "12 hours in a DAY", -- John 11:6 -- it was noted that He abode 2 DAYS in the same place... does that mean to you that he went ELSEWHERE during the NIGHT, trettep?  And only "hung out" during the DAY? 

Let's face it brother trettep, ...you are just being completely ridiculous now, in order to maintain a ridiculous viewpoint which only entertains TIME as an entity that occurs during the 12 hours of DAYLIGHT...    And that a "DAY" is just the DAYLIGHT portion...  -->

A DAY is composed of EVENING ...AND... MORNING... there are 12 hours of DAYLIGHT in HALF a "DAY"... the other HALF of the DAY is NIGHT... and 12 hours within IT as well...

I guess you don't get much SLEEP there doya trettep?   Since there is NO "TIME" during the NIGHT (because Scripture doesn't note "NIGHT" TIME)... as for me, I get a good EIGHT HOURS per night... but let it be known that I do feel compassion for INSOMINIACS such as yourself, which cannot get ANY SLEEPTIME, since you don't believe that TIME does NOT exist during NON-DAYLIGHT periods... 

As you see it, (because there is no DAYLIGHT in the NIGHT, and the Scripture only notes 12 hours in a DAY") there are therefore NO HOURS in the NIGHT, and the NIGHT does not count as TIME... nor CONTAIN TIME...  (Hope you don't get any graveyard shifts, you won't be recieving a very big paycheck  )... 

Get outta here with this false BS, brother trettep!     (I don't mean leave, I mean it would be nice if you would cut the foolish and illogical, BS!  )

Btw... Are you gonna "fess-up" to your other false notations?    Or just continue to add to them... 

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you get that willie?  We are to understand God by the things that are MADE in this creation (kosmos).  Now where is timelessness to be understood by the things that are made?

By the "TEMPORAL state" in which the things that are MADE, participate and then FADE AWAY to DEATH... which "TEMPORAL state" happens to MARK TIME...

By the TIMELESS ONE who MADE THEM and PRECEEDED THEM and IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, ...before they became entities within the CREATION of TIME... for the WORD made all that was MADE... to include the DAYS of TIME, and simultaneously, within that TIME, ...brought forth the EARTH and HEAVENS, as well as ALL that in them ARE... uhhh... did you get that trettep? 

The TEMPORAL things that are MADE are evidences of the ETERNAL which ALWAYS IS... which is why we are confined to this PUNY little planet which is INSIGNIFICANT and INVISIBLE amongst an UNENDINGLY VAST UNIVERSE... uhhh, ...did you get that trettep?

The things MADE are evidences of the invisible ETERNALLY LIVING SPIRIT... for they are REFLECTIONS of it, ...IMAGES... which are projected into PHYSICALITY which IN TIME, ...are PASSING AWAY in their VAPOROUS and TEMPORAL existence... to DEATH in TIME...

Name ONE LIVING THING in TIME, ...outside the Earth and Stars... which has LIVED and MAINTAINED its existence, continuously since it's beginning...

Can you tell me what is made by which I should understand timelessness?

I could speak TRUTH till I was out of TIME... and you would still ARGUE against it trettep.  Though you are a nice guy, ...you have a VERY stubborn spirit... which fights against LOGIC as well as speaks UNSCRIPTURAL statements, yet requires SCRIPTURE from others...

What is "MADE" is the CLEAR evidence of a MAKER which PRECEEDED all of this... of course that is to simple for you to understand, as you are far too complex in your self ordination as a "teacher"...

Such ridiculous stances must equate that most of the MEN which were "begat" as noted in Scripture, must've  been "begatted" by supernatural means since rarely are WOMEN ever mentioned in the GENEOLOGIES... is that your stance trettep?  Something like the "12 hours in a day" thing?   Since no women were mentioned, they must not have been taking part in the "begatting" thing -- eh?

Think about yourself and your positions trettep... I don't condemn you for your positions, (though I DO see them as stubborn), ...just find them clinging to ILLOGICAL and UNSCRIPTURAL... self observations... instead of REASONING reasonably... you make a day and TIME, confined to DAYLIGHT hours...



...willieH 

and the pattern continues........ 

 

[trettep]

willieH: Hi Paul... 

You get more ridiculous with each post, bro.

Willie, a day is not 24 hours.  A day is 12 hours.  Light is the measurement for measuring the day.  There cannot be more than 12 hours in a day.   See your confusing measurement and time.  Were talking scripture, willie, you won't find an hour mentioned more than twelve in the scriptures.

No you are just TALKING... you seldom note SCRIPTURE, just make false statements which are NOT in SCRIPTURE and when you do note things that are actually noted in the WORD, within your own babble, ...you exaggerate that which IS said in it...

Trying to refer to a DAY as 12 hours in length... which is foolish.  CHRIST noted there are 12 hours in DAY -- John 11:9 -- because He was speaking that men can profitably DO THINGS in the LIGHT, that they cannot DO in the DARK, ...for the will STUMBLE in the dark... while alluding to His presence as that profitable LIGHT in which they might gain by the LIGHT of His presence...

Earlier in the context where JESUS noted there are "12 hours in a DAY", -- John 11:6 -- it was noted that He abode 2 DAYS in the same place... does that mean to you that he went ELSEWHERE during the NIGHT, trettep?  And only "hung out" during the DAY? 

Let's face it brother trettep, ...you are just being completely ridiculous now, in order to maintain a ridiculous viewpoint which only entertains TIME as an entity that occurs during the 12 hours of DAYLIGHT...    And that a "DAY" is just the DAYLIGHT portion...  -->

A DAY is composed of EVENING ...AND... MORNING... there are 12 hours of DAYLIGHT in HALF a "DAY"... the other HALF of the DAY is NIGHT... and 12 hours within IT as well...

I guess you don't get much SLEEP there doya trettep?   Since there is NO "TIME" during the NIGHT (because Scripture doesn't note "NIGHT" TIME)... as for me, I get a good EIGHT HOURS per night... but let it be known that I do feel compassion for INSOMINIACS such as yourself, which cannot get ANY SLEEPTIME, since you don't believe that TIME does NOT exist during NON-DAYLIGHT periods... 

As you see it, (because there is no DAYLIGHT in the NIGHT, and the Scripture only notes 12 hours in a DAY") there are therefore NO HOURS in the NIGHT, and the NIGHT does not count as TIME... nor CONTAIN TIME...  (Hope you don't get any graveyard shifts, you won't be recieving a very big paycheck  )... 

Get outta here with this false BS, brother trettep!     (I don't mean leave, I mean it would be nice if you would cut the foolish and illogical, BS!  )

Btw... Are you gonna "fess-up" to your other false notations?    Or just continue to add to them... 

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you get that willie?  We are to understand God by the things that are MADE in this creation (kosmos).  Now where is timelessness to be understood by the things that are made?

By the "TEMPORAL state" in which the things that are MADE, participate and then FADE AWAY to DEATH... which "TEMPORAL state" happens to MARK TIME...

By the TIMELESS ONE who MADE THEM and PRECEEDED THEM and IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, ...before they became entities within the CREATION of TIME... for the WORD made all that was MADE... to include the DAYS of TIME, and simultaneously, within that TIME, ...brought forth the EARTH and HEAVENS, as well as ALL that in them ARE... uhhh... did you get that trettep? 

The TEMPORAL things that are MADE are evidences of the ETERNAL which ALWAYS IS... which is why we are confined to this PUNY little planet which is INSIGNIFICANT and INVISIBLE amongst an UNENDINGLY VAST UNIVERSE... uhhh, ...did you get that trettep?

The things MADE are evidences of the invisible ETERNALLY LIVING SPIRIT... for they are REFLECTIONS of it, ...IMAGES... which are projected into PHYSICALITY which IN TIME, ...are PASSING AWAY in their VAPOROUS and TEMPORAL existence... to DEATH in TIME...

Name ONE LIVING THING in TIME, ...outside the Earth and Stars... which has LIVED and MAINTAINED its existence, continuously since it's beginning...

Can you tell me what is made by which I should understand timelessness?

I could speak TRUTH till I was out of TIME... and you would still ARGUE against it trettep.  Though you are a nice guy, ...you have a VERY stubborn spirit... which fights against LOGIC as well as speaks UNSCRIPTURAL statements, yet requires SCRIPTURE from others...

What is "MADE" is the CLEAR evidence of a MAKER which PRECEEDED all of this... of course that is to simple for you to understand, as you are far too complex in your self ordination as a "teacher"...

Such ridiculous stances must equate that most of the MEN which were "begat" as noted in Scripture, must've  been "begatted" by supernatural means since rarely are WOMEN ever mentioned in the GENEOLOGIES... is that your stance trettep?  Something like the "12 hours in a day" thing?   Since no women were mentioned, they must not have been taking part in the "begatting" thing -- eh?

Think about yourself and your positions trettep... I don't condemn you for your positions, (though I DO see them as stubborn), ...just find them clinging to ILLOGICAL and UNSCRIPTURAL... self observations... instead of REASONING reasonably... you make a day and TIME, confined to DAYLIGHT hours...



...willieH 

Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

[trettep]

Since we are talking about time a bit in this thread I thought I would post a note about TIME a bit more for others here that believe as I do that TIME always exists.  If you believe that TIME ceases to exist when this world ends then you will not understand this excerpt from Barnabas:

"CHAPTER XV.--THE FALSE AND THE TRUE SABBATH.

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. "

If anyone is interested in discussing any of this and the 8th day then I can start another thread on it.

Paul

[sheila]

Paul,

   the seventh Sabbath day is our day of rest..the beginning of

 time no more. The eighth day is when He sends us to all our

 own eternal estates.

   Everyone stays  and congregates for a family reunion until the

last child of God is raised[full number of gentiles/all Israel].

   celebration of harvest

Father then disperses to

 each one his eternal inheritance[home/dwelling place] just like

 when Israel entered into the promised land it was allotted.


   Our promised land is the eternal inheritance stored up for us..

  one thing different..it is eternal.We'll each have our own

  estates. portions...you will notice on the eighth day the

people are dispersed from temporary dwelling in booths and

sent to their own estates[inheritance]

  1 Kings 8 also gives insight on this when the Ark was brought

 to the temple as part of celebrating during festival of Booths

   temporal dwelling in  tents with Israel and dedication of new

   temple. It came up in David's heart to make a permanent

dwelling place for God in Israel to honour him..

    thus the do unto others as you would have them do unto you..

   and Father's heart was set on making a permanent place for

  all Israel to dwell with Him in heaven.

   [the cloud filled the temple of the Lord]

    v 12  Then Solomon said ' the Lord has said that He would

dwell in dark clouds, I have indeed built a magnificient temple

for you, a place for you to dwell forever"

   Can you see the heart of your Father,here?


    I will tell you something else. when you are in the spirit,

 time has no meaning. I have been in and out of the spiritual

realm.
and have discovered quite shockingly that so much time had

passed and I was unaware of it.


 also in death you are conscious of nothing at all..time has

 no meaning there,either.until you wake up.

  time ever get away from you,here? If not, it certainly will

[Cardinal]

  AMEN Sheila........Good post......... I too have been in and out of the heavenly realm, caught up in the Spirit, seeing and hearing only that which the Father would have me to see and hear. Time passed  here.

A day is both night and daylight hours as Genesis 1 tells us, and represents the 24 elders around the throne. Blessings.....

[Seth]

  I will tell you something else. when you are in the spirit,

 time has no meaning. I have been in and out of the spiritual

realm.
and have discovered quite shockingly that so much time had

passed and I was unaware of it.

Shiela,
What if I told you that time has no meaning right now? Time only has whatever meaning we place on it because time is thought. If someone's thoughts are different, they will experience time differently. How much more different are God's thoughts than our own?

If you had no memory, what would your past be? It would be GONE.

[trettep]

Paul,

   the seventh Sabbath day is our day of rest..the beginning of

 time no more. The eighth day is when He sends us to all our

 own eternal estates.

   Everyone stays  and congregates for a family reunion until the

last child of God is raised[full number of gentiles/all Israel].

   celebration of harvest

Father then disperses to

 each one his eternal inheritance[home/dwelling place] just like

 when Israel entered into the promised land it was allotted.


   Our promised land is the eternal inheritance stored up for us..

  one thing different..it is eternal.We'll each have our own

  estates. portions...you will notice on the eighth day the

people are dispersed from temporary dwelling in booths and

sent to their own estates[inheritance]

  1 Kings 8 also gives insight on this when the Ark was brought

 to the temple as part of celebrating during festival of Booths

   temporal dwelling in  tents with Israel and dedication of new

   temple. It came up in David's heart to make a permanent

dwelling place for God in Israel to honour him..

    thus the do unto others as you would have them do unto you..

   and Father's heart was set on making a permanent place for

  all Israel to dwell with Him in heaven.

   [the cloud filled the temple of the Lord]

    v 12  Then Solomon said ' the Lord has said that He would

dwell in dark clouds, I have indeed built a magnificient temple

for you, a place for you to dwell forever"

   Can you see the heart of your Father,here?


    I will tell you something else. when you are in the spirit,

 time has no meaning. I have been in and out of the spiritual

realm.
and have discovered quite shockingly that so much time had

passed and I was unaware of it.


 also in death you are conscious of nothing at all..time has

 no meaning there,either.until you wake up.

  time ever get away from you,here? If not, it certainly will

Sabbath is SEVENTH day.  Barnabas speaks of the 8th day (a further measurement of time), thus time doesn't end.  The reference to the 8th speaks proof that Time still exists.  The fact that Jesus was raised on the 8th day also signifies that in the resurrection we will be in the 8th day (a reference to TIME).

Paul

[sheila]

 have to be somewhere,catchya later!

[Seth]

What I think is not that TIME is to be erased, but that our MINDS will be elevated and empowered to be more like God's so that whatever He experiences, whether it be memory, intention, action, whatever, we will adopt HIS EXPERIENCE.

I do not see time erased in that, because I do not see time to be a finite entity, or a THING, or something to be discarded, because I see time simply as a regard of experiences (past/present/future). I do see that God's EXPERIENCES and His HIGHER UNDERSTANDING are infinitely larger and more expansive, as such to where words don't even do it justice.

So with that in mind, I don't see time being erased, only that our understanding and experience OF the progression of things, will be heightened to an infinitely larger degree.

[willieH]

and the pattern continues........ 

 

I corrected my mistakes... and please, lighten up "pattern police"...  here's two back atcha:   

...willieH 

[willieH]

Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Get the same kind of reply from ET believers after explaining UR... 

...willieH 

[trettep]

Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Get the same kind of reply from ET believers after explaining UR... 

...willieH 

I believe their response is just as geniune.  I sincerely believe they still believe in Eternal Torment because they haven't been given to understand otherwise.

Paul

[willieH]

Since we are talking about time a bit in this thread I thought I would post a note about TIME a bit more for others here that believe as I do that TIME always exists.  If you believe that TIME ceases to exist when this world ends then you will not understand this excerpt from Barnabas:

"CHAPTER XV.--THE FALSE AND THE TRUE SABBATH.

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. "

If anyone is interested in discussing any of this and the 8th day then I can start another thread on it.

Paul

...UNSCRIPTURAL...
 :omg:  "BARNABAS"?  This "proves" something, does it?  

Couldn't find any Scripture to quote... so you quote writings OUTSIDE of it... Will you be quoting Steven King or Barrack Obama, next trettep?  

Using BOTH the OLD and NEW Testaments...

I can SCRIPTURALLY PROVE that JESUS rose on the SABBATH DAY... but, that would be unacceptable to you...



...willieH  

[willieH]

Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Get the same kind of reply from ET believers after explaining UR... 

...willieH 

I believe their response is just as geniune.  I sincerely believe they still believe in Eternal Torment because they haven't been given to understand otherwise.

Paul

I did NOT say their response was not sincere or genuine... nor do I say that to you... (btw, I removed the remarks to you in my post last nite, that were unnecessary and apologize for them)

The point I make, is that:  I noted that the TRUTH was given, and refused... which is as I have maintained with you, throughout this conversation...

Only GOD can enlighten... and DOES SO, according to HIS PURPOSE and AGENDA...   

The TRUTH on any given subject, can be (and IS) presented and refused, for it is not GIVEN to everyone...

...willieH 

[trettep]

Since we are talking about time a bit in this thread I thought I would post a note about TIME a bit more for others here that believe as I do that TIME always exists.  If you believe that TIME ceases to exist when this world ends then you will not understand this excerpt from Barnabas:

"CHAPTER XV.--THE FALSE AND THE TRUE SABBATH.

Further, also, it is written concerning the Sabbath in the Decalogue which [the Lord] spoke, face to face, to Moses on Mount Sinai, "And sanctify ye the Sabbath of the Lord with clean hands and a pure heart." And He says in another place, "If my sons keep the Sabbath, then will I cause my mercy to rest upon them." The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: "And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it." Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, "He finished in six days." This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, "Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years." Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. "And He rested on the seventh day." This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, "Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart." If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived. Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves. Further, He says to them, "Your new moons and your Sabbath I cannot endure." Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, [namely this,] when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. And when He had manifested Himself, He ascended into the heavens. "

If anyone is interested in discussing any of this and the 8th day then I can start another thread on it.

Paul

...UNSCRIPTURAL...
 :omg:  "BARNABAS"?  This "proves" something, does it?  

Couldn't find any Scripture to quote... so you quote writings OUTSIDE of it... Will you be quoting Steven King or Barrack Obama, next trettep?  

Using BOTH the OLD and NEW Testaments...

I can SCRIPTURALLY PROVE that JESUS rose on the SABBATH DAY... but, that would be unacceptable to you...



...willieH  

Barnabas is scripture.  You should all be embracing the Epistle of Barnabas.  Its also part of Codex Sinaiticus.

Paul

[trettep]

Willie, I quite confident in what I have stated.  I have seen no reason to think otherwise.

Paul

Get the same kind of reply from ET believers after explaining UR... 

...willieH 

I believe their response is just as geniune.  I sincerely believe they still believe in Eternal Torment because they haven't been given to understand otherwise.

Paul

I did NOT say their response was not sincere or genuine... nor do I say that to you... (btw, I removed the remarks to you in my post last nite, that were unnecessary and apologize for them)

The point I make, is that:  I noted that the TRUTH was given, and refused... which is as I have maintained with you, throughout this conversation...

Only GOD can enlighten... and DOES SO, according to HIS PURPOSE and AGENDA...   

The TRUTH on any given subject, can be (and IS) presented and refused, for it is not GIVEN to everyone...

...willieH 

Where we disagree in your statement here is that I don't believe you gave me the Truth.  So I didn't refuse the Truth.  How can you say you agree with the first point and then say that I refused the Truth if I don't believe what you gave was the Truth in the first place?  See Willie, Jesus and His ministry is about persuasion.  You have resorted to attacks and comments that you have had to go back and delete or apologize for.  Shouldn't that tell you something about the spirit that you are perceiving the "Truth" with?  I'm am trying to help Willie, and I do want to believe you.  I want to believe everyone.  But God gave me logic and from what I have been given and when utilized I can't find the logic to embrace what your saying as True on this particular subject.

Paul

[willieH]

Where we disagree in your statement here is that I don't believe you gave me the Truth.  So I didn't refuse the Truth.

That you don't "believe" I gave you TRUTH, does not make the "belief" valid...

Neither did they when UR was presented to them trettep... those who are not given to KNOW the truth, will refuse it when it is presented, which IS the point...    And which is why YOU reject it. 

How can you say you agree with the first point and then say that I refused the Truth if I don't believe what you gave was the Truth in the first place?

Paul... you fail to understand that in the progression of the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, which is the "revelation" of the WORD of GOD... that many are called, few are chosen...

Many shall respond and call JESUS Lord for they are enabled to do so by GOD, and such (calling JESUS Lord) IS a Revelation of the TRUTH, for JESUS IS the Lord and Savior of ALL... yet they are NOT CHOSEN to KNOW the TRUTH in many other areas,  ...As is noted and evidenced in Matt 7:22-23...

It is evident in CHRISTIANITY which names many (even MOST) of its essential teachings which are NOT named or found in the BIBLE -- such as "trinity -- rapture -- Eternal separation from God -- free will -- Hell -- spiritual Israel -- going to Heaven --  fallen angels -- satan as a being", ...the list is sorrowfully long as well as sorrowfully wrong. (pretty poetic eh?  )

As I have stated several times... YOU cannot teach ME, and vice-versa... what happens is GOD annoints the words which carry truth and POINT to HIS WORD, ...NOT that which points to one's "opinion" or "EXTERNAL writings"...

It is HIS WORD that thereby REVEALS to those who are CHOSEN to KNOW IT...

That does not mean that either YOU ...OR I, shall in this discussion, be bearing TRUTH... what it MEANS is that both of us are to remain submitted to Him faithfully, and thereby CAN be USED By Him, if HE so chooses... 

If He chooses to reveal TRUTH to either of us... and we are submitted, He can thereby use ones words to speak to another... using HIS WORD in the process...

In the mean time... we both shall stand upon what we presently BELIEVE (which we should, but continue to seek and remain open)... and which, just like the "ET folks"... are SINCERE and GENUINE in their positions, can later be found potentially erroneous when compared to the HOLY TRUTH on any given matter or doctrine...

See Willie, Jesus and His ministry is about persuasion.  You have resorted to attacks and comments that you have had to go back and delete or apologize for.

:omg:  How sorrowful of you to take my apology and use it against me...  I admitted losing patience with you... and have endeavored in writing before ALL to repent of it.   But instead of practicing the GRACE of FORGIVENESS... you wish to take my apology and further "beat me with it"... This only serves as a degradation of yourself Paul... 

That I am a man, and admittedly I have flaws and those flaws do surface from time to time as I walk as a man... it is at time unfortunate for those who suffer me...

But when I make an apology for those mistakes, it testifies to the presence of the GRACE of the INNER MAN, when HUMILITY is displayed before any I might offend, within those faults...

That you respond by TRAMPLING upon that display TESTIFIES of the "spirit" with which you deal with a brother, namely me.   

You thereby display the "spirit" of UNFORGIVENESS...

When YOU admitted to ONE of your (several) UNBIBLICAL propositions here ("ETERNITY is a span of TIME")... I ...commended that admission... HERE:

But let me tell you, just as the scriptures don't say that "Eternity is a span of Time", it also doesn't say "God will save trettep".

Nice to see you admit that one of your statements is not mentioned in the WORD...    I commend you for it! 

Instead of verbally slapping you further concerning this statement... I commended your humility and admission.  Unfortunately you are unable to practice this before me... by GRACEFULLY accepting my apology.  Instead you point out the mistake and attempt to enlarge upon it!   

You have more than Scriptural TRUTH to learn brother Paul... your heart is in a hardened condition, and does not know to respond to HUMILITY with the instructions given by the WORD:

1 John 4:19-20 -- if love your brother you shall FORGIVE him - (you have NOT)
Matt 5:44 -- forgive enemies -- who are enemies? (You have NOT)
Matt 10:36 -- foes = members of your own household... (speaks for itself)

I have thoroughly explained my position USING SCRIPTURE to establish that position -- something YOU have NOT DONE...  Instead you offer writings OUTSIDE of SCRIPTURE to try to "substanciate" your beliefs as valid...    Which is as effective quoting a "Hal Lindsay" book...

Shouldn't that tell you something about the spirit that you are perceiving the "Truth" with?  I'm am trying to help Willie, and I do want to believe you.  I want to believe everyone.  But God gave me logic and from what I have been given and when utilized I can't find the logic to embrace what your saying as True on this particular subject.

   ...Now within your UNFORGIVING SPIRIT, you wish to go all "spiritual" on me -- "trying to help"...   

If GOD gave you LOGIC... you would STAY in the WORD, and use SCRIPTURAL foundations for your beliefs, instead of wandering OUTSIDE of it, and embracing NON-SCRIPTURAL documents, as well as embracing your own "opinion" which makes statements which are UNSCRIPTURAL, as well as ADDING to the TEXT, that which is NOT THERE, ...which I have already shown in this thread is your practice...

Stating things which ARE NOT found in Scripture and which you will NOT admit to -- such as: "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD" (or the retracted) "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"...

ADDING to Scripture "divine nature" (unmentioned) to Mal 3:6, as well as noting that this ADDITION is in reference to "HIS PERSON, and/or HIS SPIRIT" which are also UNMENTIONED in the text of Mal 3:6

Now, because you are UNABLE to prove your beliefs with SCRIPTURE, you offer (to "prove" or "substanciate" your beliefs) with writings which are EXTERNAL of Scripture -- namely: "BARNABAS" 

BARNABAS is no more Scripture than is "Left behind"... GOD maintains His WORD... and the writing of BARNABAS is NOT considered as SCRIPTURE.  If it were, it would appear in the canon of SCRIPTURE... which it does not. 

Name one version of TRANSLATED SCRIPTURE which includes this writing of "BARNABAS"...

BARNABAS is an early "Christian" writing, and there are MANY such writings... THEY are NOT SCRIPTURE, ...just personal writings of testimony and/or commentary of those within "Christian" belief, ...much in the same way as BILLY GRAHAM's writings shall one day be considered in the distant future... Billy Graham does not WRITE SCRIPTURE... He comments from his viewpoint, upon SCRIPTURE... just as we are doing here trettep...

As the Apostles John & Paul were continually warning others of the pollutions in and around the early church... the writings of men such as BARNABAS were subject to these pollutions...

You are welcome to believe anything you wish... it is not my concern.  Personally, I believe that GOD maintains control over HIS WORD... which is why the ENTIRE canon of SCRIPTURE  is found amidst the CATHOLIC Bible... for it is the common ground that ALL can stand upon and find communication...

If we must travel outside the canon... we are seeking to found our beliefs on UNCOMMON GROUND... which is where YOU and I shall further separate...  If BARNABAS is an example of what is to come in your endeavor to substanciate your views... we shall "bump heads" often.

You are UNABLE found your beliefs on the BIBLE AS it is WRITTEN, and as is agreed in common within Christianity (by GOD's ORDINATION)...  So you endeavor to substanciate your beliefs with EXTERNAL writings...

If your beliefs were BIBLICAL, you would found them on the WORD we share in common... The fact is that YOU CANNOT...  and any such EXTERNAL usage is INVALID (except to you)

You are FORCED to go outside of the WORD, in this discussion, by -- (1) falsely self created UNBIBLICAL statements by YOU and by -- (2)  ADDITIONS to the WORD, made by YOU, and as if that is NOT enough, by -- (3)  seeking documents OUTSIDE of the BIBLE to prove and substanciate your "beliefs"...

This is the format of DELUSION... which GOD said that He would send...  -- 2 Thess 2:10-11 --

I pray for you bro... 

...willieH 

[trettep]

Willie, I believe as I believe because what you say to me is NOT perceived as Truth.  Whether you believe it is or not doesn't make it so.  God has to convince my heart of it but contrarywise, He has given to me to believe at this moment that Time ALWAYS exists and has given me scriptures to support this.  I have given you those scriptures and you disagreed with my interpretation of them.  I disagree with your interpretation on this topic.  To me TIME ALWAYS EXISTS as GOD EXISTS!!!  Days, weeks, months, years are just measurements of Time and are not TIME itself.  I continue to believe in LONGSUFFERING and PATIENCE and the ORDERLY performance of God's Salvation for all.  These things all happen in TIME. 

Paul

[jabcat]

I wasn't really familiar with the Gospel of Barnabas...is this the one under consideration?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

"The Gospel of Barnabas claims that Jesus predicted the advent of Muhammad, thus conforming with the Qur'an which mentions:  "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, this is evident sorcery!" (Sura 61:6)
(Ahmad is another name of Muhammad.)

The Gospel of Barnabas was little known outside academic circles until recent times, when a number of Muslims have taken to publishing it in order to argue against the orthodox Christian conception of Jesus. It generally resonates better with existing Muslim views than with Christianity

This work bears strong parallels with the Islamic faith, not only mentioning Muhammad by name, but including the shahadah (chapter 39). It is strongly anti-Pauline and anti-Trinitarian in tone. In this work, Jesus is described as a prophet and not the son of God

Some students of the work argue for an Italian origin [23], noting phrases in Barnabas which are very similar to phrases used by Dante [24] and suggesting that the author of Barnabas borrowed from Dante's works; they take the Spanish version's preface to support this conclusion..."

what's more perspective on this?  Thanks, James.

[Beloved Servant]

About 600 years, Jab?

[jabcat]

That's one thing that struck me.  I'm not sure how accurate this info is, it was but a quick look.  But it sounds like it MAY be only several hundred years old...though there's a claim that a copy was found with Barnabas' corpse  .  I went into it thinking there might be some cool stuff there to read, then found the above info...again, don't know how accurate, and probably more to the story, but so far   

[trettep]

I wasn't really familiar with the Gospel of Barnabas...is this the one under consideration?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas

"The Gospel of Barnabas claims that Jesus predicted the advent of Muhammad, thus conforming with the Qur'an which mentions:  "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, this is evident sorcery!" (Sura 61:6)
(Ahmad is another name of Muhammad.)

The Gospel of Barnabas was little known outside academic circles until recent times, when a number of Muslims have taken to publishing it in order to argue against the orthodox Christian conception of Jesus. It generally resonates better with existing Muslim views than with Christianity

This work bears strong parallels with the Islamic faith, not only mentioning Muhammad by name, but including the shahadah (chapter 39). It is strongly anti-Pauline and anti-Trinitarian in tone. In this work, Jesus is described as a prophet and not the son of God

Some students of the work argue for an Italian origin [23], noting phrases in Barnabas which are very similar to phrases used by Dante [24] and suggesting that the author of Barnabas borrowed from Dante's works; they take the Spanish version's preface to support this conclusion..."

what's more perspective on this?  Thanks, James.

No Jabcat, the Epistle of Barnabas.  Not the Gospel of Barnabas.  Check here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_Barnabas

And for the translation that I use:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/barnabas-roberts.html

That writing will open your eyes about Jewish sacrifices and food abstinence.

Paul

[jabcat]

   Silly me.  The Cambridge Police Department acted stupidly.  Oops.  Should've gotten more facts  . 

I'll check it, thanks!