willieH: Hi Seth...
A few thoughts...
This music has no beginning and no end, because it is not music as we know music, but is a NATURE, and that nature is the NOW of the Spirit,which has no past and no future, but simply IS.
Cardinal, something having no beginning and no end does not mean NO progression, you see? All music, even here on earth happens now. Yet there is STILL a PROGRESSION from note to note, chord to chord, by which we call it music. That is what music IS. Nothing actually HAPPENS in the past. Anything that happens, even on earth here as we speak only happens NOW. Do we agree on that?
I completely agree with this thinking, Seth... NOW is all we have... TIME is the tool of the decay/corruption of "NOW" while it is "manifest" within the finite realm in which we find ourselves.
I agree that there must be "progression" in Eternity otherwise everything would be "frozen" -- without activity, ...but that progression is not due to TIME elapsing... it is due to the revelation of JESUS CHRIST
which is the WORD
which is in an ETERNAL expression -- expressing LIFE... Just as WE do not speak ALL of our WORDS at once, does not keep them from BEING. It is the expression of our words that notes PROGRESSION... and TIME did not dictate their BEING, it just enabled
their "progression" within the FINITE, while we are in its FINITE realm...
In the ETERNAL, ..."progression" is on another basis, that being the continuing revelation of JESUS CHRIST
LIFE -- John 14:6
-- and which emerges from YHVH
IOW -- "eternal LIFE" is that which emerges from YHVH
... for man shall not LIVE by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that "proceedeth" [progresses] out of the MOUTH of GOD
-- Matt 4:4 - Deut 8:3
It is the WORD
of GOD "proceeding" from a "mouth" which has no beginning or end" that LIFE emerges and is sustained... NO "TIME" is necessary...
That we are not able to BEHOLD (i.e. comprehend the "no beginning/no end") Eternity, is grounds for it to lapse from the endeavor to explain its parameters, one of which is HOW the ETERNAL
might "proceed" or "progress" WITHOUT the presence of TIME...
How can something BE (liv-ing
) without progression?
Well... TIME is a created entity, and IT
"proceeded" from an ETERNAL LIV-ING
source -- WITHOUT IT... for [without time existing] -- GOD SPOKE
(which is a progression
) and the Creation PROCEEDED FORTH
, from His WORDS
So, HOW might we explain HOW it "CAME FORTH" when NO TIME existed for the "progression" to take place?
It is obvious to me that PROGRESSION indeed is involved in the ETERNAL, but that "progression" is NOT SUBJECT to the entity of TIME, only to NOW... and to its SOURCE -- YHVH
And as well, it is also obvious that (infinite) ETERNAL "PROGRESSION" which is done without
TIME, ...is beyond those of us within the FINITE (realm of time) ,to grasp.
What I am saying is that we don't need to WAIT until we "enter eternity" for the past to be meaningless. It's meaningless now. There IS no past. There IS no future, only what what is reckoned to have happened, and only what was reckoned to have been done. But once something happens in the "now" it's gone.
Time does not move. Nothing exists IN the past. We don't wait to enter eternity for that to be true.
What was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.
But where is this in the Bible?
Where in our scripture does it say all things happened at once? God says he calls things which ARE NOT, as though they BE. That means he talks as if something already happened, when it didn't. The EXCEPTION to that rule, among Christians, is that such is true only "in time," but not "in eternity?" Where is that teaching expressed in the Bible that NEGATES the words which express some things as being NOT? There has to be more to verify it than our own philosophies. Where is the teaching in the Bible that explicitly contrasts "time" with "timelessness"?
It was said by someone here recently that all this scenario (time) is, ...is a "downloading" of sorts by GOD to His BODY/Temple, the knowledge of G & E... that is entirely possible
for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God.
That the domain of GOD existed without beginning or end
, is the concept of TIMELESSNESS, for TIME has both
of these properties
... That it is not stated in a "set of words" which says that TIME is an OPPOSITION of ETERNITY, does not preclude that it is. TIME is an INCOMPLETE commodity for it is YET progressing and noting its HISTORY.
Paul noted: 1 Cor 13:9
-- For we know IN PART and we prophesy IN PART, but when that which is PERFECT [COMPLETE/Eternal] is COME, then that which is IN PART [incomplete/time] shall be: DONE AWAY...
TIME is definitely an "in part" or "part by part" scenario...
...INCOMPLETE, having yet to COMPLETELY "run its course" (which course had a beginning and shall have an end)... which is destined to find its end in the COMPLETE and TIMELESS
entity called ETERNITY, from which it emerged... (my
Many things are not stated in the WORD
in a "statement" that SAYS in the words which WE might "say it" but are still "SAID"... they are CONCEALED, and it is: Pro 25:2
...the "honor of kings to SEARCH OUT a MATTER"
-- One of those "matters" is that which is being discussed at this time...
That both JESUS
stated themselves in terms OTHER than those within time is the notation that THEIR domain is other than TIME and is not subject to it -- YHVH
stated "I AM that I AM"
(not was or will be)... JESUS
stated: BEFORE Abraham WAS
[time notation]... I AM
In God's word some things are NOT. That is explicit. The contradiction to that, is that the things which God calls as being NOT, indeed ARE because of the whole time/timelessness philosophy. Where is written, this contrast between time and timelessness?
As far as my view of this, it has already be noted...
Until something happens, it is not. And after it happens, it only "happens" in memory or record, in which case it isn't happening at all.
This is only true of the INCOMPLETE entity of TIME... as far as the entity of the ETERNAL... there is NO BEGINNING or END to the things which are about their existance IN IT... When TIME is COMPLETE it's experience is FOREVER part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD ...and... His Children (us - His Body and Temple)
This is nearly impossible for us to wrap our minds around (and for me still, and I saw it), but when He said it is finished, He wasn't speaking about what was going on in time right there, but rather bearing witness to what had ALREADY HAPPENED.
But where does the Bible attest to this in contrast to what God claims to be NOT? If God says somethings are NOT, I have to believe that. If I believe otherwise, I have to have a good reason. For God to say "this is NOT," and for me to claim to the contrary, "this IS" I have to see it in the scripture. Right now, I see NOTHING in the scripture which contrasts "time" with "timelessness" just personal philosophies.
If you analyze the statement Seth... GOD calls things that "are not" as though they "were" is a notation of HIS ETERNAL observation of THE TOTALITY of TIME... HE is enabled to note TIME completely, for He is INFINITE and the Creator OF IT... So as far as HE is concerned, He does not "wait" for TIME to unfold as do we... HE has ALWAYS observed it in its COMPLETED state... END from Beginning...
GOD is saying that "the things that are NOT
" [for us], (ARE) "as if they WERE" -- [for Him]...
TIME shall continue to unfold FOR FINITES (us)...
TIME IS (and always was) a "done deal" for the INFINITE... For "progression" in the ETERNAL does not require TIME in order to BE...