Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 22856 times)

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Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #100 on: July 22, 2009, 10:41:56 PM »
Paul you said that the Holy Spirit is God's communication of himself to us, that we are to copy right? You said something to that degree in another conversation, so I am paraphrasing.

But where is his home base of communication? Where is his temple?

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #101 on: July 22, 2009, 11:51:51 PM »
 :cloud9: Seth.......just something for your consideration since you're thinking on time......the Lord spoke to me that, "time is the measurement of death", ie. "something has to die to create time."

He 'died', if you will, by lowering Himself into the creation. We can see time by the changing of the seasons, ie. something dying. Since there is no time in His Spirit, therefore no death in His Spirit, which is life. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #102 on: July 22, 2009, 11:54:18 PM »
Quote
Is this making any sense.  I can use all the feedback I can get to express this better.


I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't think 'destroyed' is a good word to use.

Jesus didn't come to destroy us, but to give us abundant life.


Jn 10:10
...that they might have life, and that they might have it more...

" abundantly."
G4053
περισσός
perissos
per-is-sos'
From G4012 (in the sense of beyond); superabundant (in quantity) or superior (in quality); by implication excessive; adverb (with G1537) violently; neuter (as noun) preeminence: - exceeding abundantly above, more abundantly, advantage, exceedingly, very highly, beyond measure, more, superfluous, vehement [-ly].


Everybody in Christiandom seems to miss this message.

He gives life by destroying your death.  Your own spirit is death.  It has to be destroyed.


Gal 2:18  For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Notice that even Paul says they are destroyed.

We are all just stones in the old temple that must be cast down and destroyed for what will stand in its place is the New Temple.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #103 on: July 22, 2009, 11:57:47 PM »
Paul you said that the Holy Spirit is God's communication of himself to us, that we are to copy right? You said something to that degree in another conversation, so I am paraphrasing.

But where is his home base of communication? Where is his temple?

I thought you already made up your mind that the Spirit was not communication?  Jesus is the one that said it was Communication - Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are life:

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

His Temple is in hearts of flesh.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #104 on: July 23, 2009, 12:17:31 AM »
I thought you already made up your mind that the Spirit was not communication?  Jesus is the one that said it was Communication - Jesus said His Words are Spirit and they are life:

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

His Temple is in hearts of flesh.

Paul

What I said is that, YOU say it is communication. And, hypothetically if so, the communication is happening from within us.

Jesus said his words are spirit. God is spirit. Is God Himself simply the vocalization of words by the human throat and mouth? Do you see that when Christ says "my words are spirit and they are life" he is referring to Himself and that he was speaking to an audience who were not supposed to understand him? Christ was talking about the promise of "Christ in you the hope of glory."

Christ said: I am the life. He said that his word is spirit because HE was the Word made flesh, speaking the truth, which again HE is. His words SPOKE OF the Spirit which is HIM. I doubt we are too far off in agreeing on that.

You said, "His temple is in hearts of flesh." His temple is you.



« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 02:21:08 AM by Seth »

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #105 on: July 23, 2009, 12:22:10 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Paul... the ETERNAL fact is that GOD ...IS... All IN All... and that FACT is being "revealed" in TIME... you just don't (at this moment) see it... TIME does not avail GOD to BECOME anything... HE IS what HE IS... always has been, always will be...

Time is a FINITE entity in which ETERNAL revelation takes place... when the ETERNAL is revealed (CHRIST and that GOD IS ALL IN ALL), then TIME is no longer necessary, for that WHICH is PERFECT is come... and thereby that which is IMPERFECT (time and ALL within it) is done away... that you do not see this now, is okay with me...

My observance of you is that you are a seeker of truth... and mark my words, you WILL discover this one day...  :cloud9:

That said bro, here is my reply to you:

Willie, "I" is a reference to the person.

To begin with bro... "I" is actually a reference to a BEING -- when the word "AM" is applied to it...

It calls attention to an entity that "IS"... it does not indicate that the entity is a "person" even though I do agree that it is indicative of His person (essence)... and that "His PERSON" (essence) ...IS... is actually the point.  For "His essence" encases ALL that He IS (in ETERNAL perspective)... one of which IS, that He IS ALL in ALL...

A "person" is not indicated in this text, ...rather is assumed (Although Heb 1:3 notes Him to be a "person" it more refers to His ESSENCE).

Even if you carry on with the assumption that "His person" is that which is addressed in this verse, then "His person" is that which DOES NOT CHANGE...  :dontknow:

He is MORE than a person, for WE, are "persons" and what HE IS, is much more than we can suppose ourselves to BE... the word PERSON in Heb 1:3 actually means ESSENCE, look it up if you will -- :dontknow:

Concerning YHVH's reference to Himself saying: "I AM"... in Mal 3:6...

A DOG "is" ("am")... but in the dogs existing LIFE, it is not considered a "PERSON"...

A recorded song "is", but is NOT a "PERSON"... that "something/anything" is indicated as BEING, does not mean that that "something" which is noted EXISTING (as in "I AM"),  indicate a "person"...  A trash can IS a trash can, and IS full of trash, without either the trash can or the trash being a "person"...

My point being that in this text, the word "I" does not indicate a person, nor does the word "AM"  indicate it... it simply summarizes ALL that YHVH, ...IS... and that that "ALL" that HE IS, does NOT CHANGE.

It is YOU that are reading more into that.
 

How can you say that bro?  I am asserting that Mal 3:6 -- SAYS what IT SAYS... that Mal 3:6 includes ALL that YHVH IS, in stating "I AM" -- YHVH... does NOT CHANGE...

It is YOU which implies that HE "BECOMES" something ("all in all") that  He "IS" NOT, ...by using the vehicle of TIME to do so!  And further implying that He was, is and will be -- UNABLE to BE "all in all" without that CREATED vehicle!  :mshock:

And the proposal that He "IS" a "person" is limiting Him... He is MUCH MORE than a "person" -- which we, as sinful BEINGS are... I do not deny that He is SINGULAR and that SINGULARITY can be isolated with the term "person", but Him being a "person" it does not ENCASE Him in any way, as it does with us as FINITES...

"I" would be a nature.
 

That is nothing but assumption.

If it was me speaking then "I" would be a reference to my spirit which is a carnal nature.
 

No... your CARNAL nature PART of you, and is the unsubmitted portion of YOU... the submitted portion of YOU, is still "I", just submitted to the overcoming POWER of CHRIST, which renders inert, the "unsubmitted" portion of YOU.

The reference to "I" does not just entail your nature... it includes your talents, your physical appearance, your intellect, you memory, etc...

The reference the Apostle Paul makes to himself as "I", is no longer the "I" that he was -- Rom 7:17 -- rather he is become the "I" that LIVES in CHRIST... Nevertheless, later in Rom 7 the TWO -- "I's" remain -- Rom 7:25

In our submission to JESUS... we are no longer "we" but "he" (CHRIST)... yet reference is still made to BOTH when we refer to ourselves as "I"... For the WAR continues to rage within...  :dontknow:

Since this is God speaking the nature is "DIVINE".  It doesn't have to say specifically "divine nature" or "spirit" that is implied by "I".  It is the meaning of "I" when the "I" is a referring to God.  It isn't speculation.

"Implied" by YOU, not by the TEXT...

Paul  you are convincing yourself of something that is NOT STATED in Mal 3:6  The "nature" of the Divine is the ESSENCE and TOTALITY of WHO and WHAT God ...IS... which DOES NOT CHANGE...

Whatever GOD ...IS... does NOT CHANGE... THAT is what Mal 3:6 ...SAYS...

GOD ...IS... All IN All... His Creation did not bring forth this, it is an ETERNAL FACT... for He CHANGES NOT... and never "becomes" something He WAS NOT...

Willie, if there is no time there cannot be change, for "change" would require time.
 

TIME is needed for US, who are residents of TIME and who DO CHANGE, ...NOT... for YHVH, who is a "resident" of ETERNITY and DOES NOT CHANGE.

For changes would be measured by some event(s) over time.

Again, what ever ETERNITY ...IS... has ALWAYS BEEN... TIME is amidst it... it is not a measure of it, nor has TIME ALWAYS BEEN... for it had a BEGINNING... and shall have an END... in TOTAL, a mere "dot" in the vastness of forever...

So if God thought that Time was not applicable to God then He wouldn't address Change but rather Time itself.  But since God addresses Change this is confirmation that Time is in the container of Eternity and that Time itself is an attribute of God.

No offense my brother, but this is CONSTRUCTED self-deception... TIME is a Creation of GOD, not an ATTRIBUTE...

CHALLENGE #1:  Thus far, even though you have responded to me twice, ...and you have avoided one challenge so far, in that you have not provided the Scripture which notes "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... are you having trouble locating it?  :Chinscratch:

CHALLENGE #2:  Note the Scripture which says (according to the words you just stated) "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"  :dontknow:

Paul, ...I believe you to be a sincere believer... but as you speak, you state things that are not SCRIPTURALLY supported... and are centering part of your "sincere belief" around them...  :sigh:

Thus far you have stated TWO (as far as my research has availed) UnScriptural statements (which remain UNSCRIPTURAL until you provide the support IN THEM)... as well as imposing premises upon Mal 3:6 which are NOT present in it... (that Mal 3:6 notes: "divine nature", and indicates that GOD is a "person") ...as well as noting that GOD needed TIME in order to BE -- ALL in ALL -- which belief indicates that He was INCOMPLETE until He created TIME... which also indicates that He was not PERFECT (complete), for He needed TIME to BECOME something He was NOT.

Sorry bro... don't buy it.  :thumbdown:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2009, 12:24:06 AM »
:cloud9: Seth.......just something for your consideration since you're thinking on time......the Lord spoke to me that, "time is the measurement of death", ie. "something has to die to create time."

He 'died', if you will, by lowering Himself into the creation. We can see time by the changing of the seasons, ie. something dying. Since there is no time in His Spirit, therefore no death in His Spirit, which is life. Blessings....

 :iagree: :goodpost:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2009, 12:36:04 AM »
:cloud9: Seth.......just something for your consideration since you're thinking on time......the Lord spoke to me that, "time is the measurement of death", ie. "something has to die to create time."

He 'died', if you will, by lowering Himself into the creation. We can see time by the changing of the seasons, ie. something dying. Since there is no time in His Spirit, therefore no death in His Spirit, which is life. Blessings....

Cardinal, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Like I said before, I am still thinking about time and what it really is. I think I had a pre-concieved notion of time according to the Hellenistic influence of Plato, who philosophized about timelessness. In the Christianity I was raised on, I was always told that "time will end" and God is "outside of time." However, the more I read the Bible, the less I saw these things to be declared.

I have begun to see that time is nothing more than remembrance or anticipation of what will be or what will not be. When God says he does not change, that does not in itself suggest timelessness, just that he does not change WITH time.

People often talk about time as though there is some timeline that exists, that we can bounce around in, like Back to the Future, and it is contrasted with Eternity, which is supposedly "now." What I have realized is that we are always in NOW. The past simply exists as a remembrances which once were now, and are not anymore, except in our memories.

Everything is always happening NOW, But, the past and future is simply memory and anticipation.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2009, 01:28:32 AM »
Cardinal, basically what I am saying is that according to the view I have (and not saying that it is THE view) regarding time as being a reckoning of what was and anticipation of what will be: If, when we die and are to be with God, if our memories as beings which were in the flesh are to be wiped clean (ie no more memories), and we have no expectation of anything to come, THEN there will be no past or future, just now.

As it is, in how I see things, we already are living in the "now" and everything that happens, occurs NOW.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2009, 02:51:23 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Paul... the ETERNAL fact is that GOD ...IS... All IN All... and that FACT is being "revealed" in TIME... you just don't (at this moment) see it... TIME does not avail GOD to BECOME anything... HE IS what HE IS... always has been, always will be...

Time is a FINITE entity in which ETERNAL revelation takes place... when the ETERNAL is revealed (CHRIST and that GOD IS ALL IN ALL), then TIME is no longer necessary, for that WHICH is PERFECT is come... and thereby that which is IMPERFECT (time and ALL within it) is done away... that you do not see this now, is okay with me...

My observance of you is that you are a seeker of truth... and mark my words, you WILL discover this one day...  :cloud9:

That said bro, here is my reply to you:

Willie, "I" is a reference to the person.

To begin with bro... "I" is actually a reference to a BEING -- when the word "AM" is applied to it...

It calls attention to an entity that "IS"... it does not indicate that the entity is a "person" even though I do agree that it is indicative of His person (essence)... and that "His PERSON" (essence) ...IS... is actually the point.  For "His essence" encases ALL that He IS (in ETERNAL perspective)... one of which IS, that He IS ALL in ALL...

A "person" is not indicated in this text, ...rather is assumed (Although Heb 1:3 notes Him to be a "person" it more refers to His ESSENCE).

Even if you carry on with the assumption that "His person" is that which is addressed in this verse, then "His person" is that which DOES NOT CHANGE...  :dontknow:

He is MORE than a person, for WE, are "persons" and what HE IS, is much more than we can suppose ourselves to BE... the word PERSON in Heb 1:3 actually means ESSENCE, look it up if you will -- :dontknow:

Concerning YHVH's reference to Himself saying: "I AM"... in Mal 3:6...

A DOG "is" ("am")... but in the dogs existing LIFE, it is not considered a "PERSON"...

A recorded song "is", but is NOT a "PERSON"... that "something/anything" is indicated as BEING, does not mean that that "something" which is noted EXISTING (as in "I AM"),  indicate a "person"...  A trash can IS a trash can, and IS full of trash, without either the trash can or the trash being a "person"...

My point being that in this text, the word "I" does not indicate a person, nor does the word "AM"  indicate it... it simply summarizes ALL that YHVH, ...IS... and that that "ALL" that HE IS, does NOT CHANGE.

It is YOU that are reading more into that.
 

How can you say that bro?  I am asserting that Mal 3:6 -- SAYS what IT SAYS... that Mal 3:6 includes ALL that YHVH IS, in stating "I AM" -- YHVH... does NOT CHANGE...

It is YOU which implies that HE "BECOMES" something ("all in all") that  He "IS" NOT, ...by using the vehicle of TIME to do so!  And further implying that He was, is and will be -- UNABLE to BE "all in all" without that CREATED vehicle!  :mshock:

And the proposal that He "IS" a "person" is limiting Him... He is MUCH MORE than a "person" -- which we, as sinful BEINGS are... I do not deny that He is SINGULAR and that SINGULARITY can be isolated with the term "person", but Him being a "person" it does not ENCASE Him in any way, as it does with us as FINITES...

"I" would be a nature.
 

That is nothing but assumption.

If it was me speaking then "I" would be a reference to my spirit which is a carnal nature.
 

No... your CARNAL nature PART of you, and is the unsubmitted portion of YOU... the submitted portion of YOU, is still "I", just submitted to the overcoming POWER of CHRIST, which renders inert, the "unsubmitted" portion of YOU.

The reference to "I" does not just entail your nature... it includes your talents, your physical appearance, your intellect, you memory, etc...

The reference the Apostle Paul makes to himself as "I", is no longer the "I" that he was -- Rom 7:17 -- rather he is become the "I" that LIVES in CHRIST... Nevertheless, later in Rom 7 the TWO -- "I's" remain -- Rom 7:25

In our submission to JESUS... we are no longer "we" but "he" (CHRIST)... yet reference is still made to BOTH when we refer to ourselves as "I"... For the WAR continues to rage within...  :dontknow:

Since this is God speaking the nature is "DIVINE".  It doesn't have to say specifically "divine nature" or "spirit" that is implied by "I".  It is the meaning of "I" when the "I" is a referring to God.  It isn't speculation.

"Implied" by YOU, not by the TEXT...

Paul  you are convincing yourself of something that is NOT STATED in Mal 3:6  The "nature" of the Divine is the ESSENCE and TOTALITY of WHO and WHAT God ...IS... which DOES NOT CHANGE...

Whatever GOD ...IS... does NOT CHANGE... THAT is what Mal 3:6 ...SAYS...

GOD ...IS... All IN All... His Creation did not bring forth this, it is an ETERNAL FACT... for He CHANGES NOT... and never "becomes" something He WAS NOT...

Willie, if there is no time there cannot be change, for "change" would require time.
 

TIME is needed for US, who are residents of TIME and who DO CHANGE, ...NOT... for YHVH, who is a "resident" of ETERNITY and DOES NOT CHANGE.

For changes would be measured by some event(s) over time.

Again, what ever ETERNITY ...IS... has ALWAYS BEEN... TIME is amidst it... it is not a measure of it, nor has TIME ALWAYS BEEN... for it had a BEGINNING... and shall have an END... in TOTAL, a mere "dot" in the vastness of forever...

So if God thought that Time was not applicable to God then He wouldn't address Change but rather Time itself.  But since God addresses Change this is confirmation that Time is in the container of Eternity and that Time itself is an attribute of God.

No offense my brother, but this is CONSTRUCTED self-deception... TIME is a Creation of GOD, not an ATTRIBUTE...

CHALLENGE #1:  Thus far, even though you have responded to me twice, ...and you have avoided one challenge so far, in that you have not provided the Scripture which notes "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... are you having trouble locating it?  :Chinscratch:

CHALLENGE #2:  Note the Scripture which says (according to the words you just stated) "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"  :dontknow:

Paul, ...I believe you to be a sincere believer... but as you speak, you state things that are not SCRIPTURALLY supported... and are centering part of your "sincere belief" around them...  :sigh:

Thus far you have stated TWO (as far as my research has availed) UnScriptural statements (which remain UNSCRIPTURAL until you provide the support IN THEM)... as well as imposing premises upon Mal 3:6 which are NOT present in it... (that Mal 3:6 notes: "divine nature", and indicates that GOD is a "person") ...as well as noting that GOD needed TIME in order to BE -- ALL in ALL -- which belief indicates that He was INCOMPLETE until He created TIME... which also indicates that He was not PERFECT (complete), for He needed TIME to BECOME something He was NOT.

Sorry bro... don't buy it.  :thumbdown:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

WillieH, I can't teach you what is right if what you believe is right can't be wrong.  So for this discussion, I can only say that God is not ALL in ALL while you believe that now God is ALL in ALL.  So we will have to leave it there.

Paul

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2009, 06:34:07 AM »
Cardinal, basically what I am saying is that according to the view I have (and not saying that it is THE view) regarding time as being a reckoning of what was and anticipation of what will be: If, when we die and are to be with God, if our memories as beings which were in the flesh are to be wiped clean (ie no more memories), and we have no expectation of anything to come, THEN there will be no past or future, just now.

As it is, in how I see things, we already are living in the "now" and everything that happens, occurs NOW.

 :cloud9: Hi Seth; I understand what you're saying. Can I just offer this thought? Since there is no time in the Spirit, then the anointed Word that is breath that spoke, IS the perpetual NOW; so therefore when something is spoken to us by that selfsame Spirit and we crucify the flesh to walk in it, then we are in a NOW that is timeless, without beginning and without end. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #111 on: July 23, 2009, 07:32:16 AM »
Cardinal, basically what I am saying is that according to the view I have (and not saying that it is THE view) regarding time as being a reckoning of what was and anticipation of what will be: If, when we die and are to be with God, if our memories as beings which were in the flesh are to be wiped clean (ie no more memories), and we have no expectation of anything to come, THEN there will be no past or future, just now.

As it is, in how I see things, we already are living in the "now" and everything that happens, occurs NOW.

 :cloud9: Hi Seth; I understand what you're saying. Can I just offer this thought? Since there is no time in the Spirit, then the anointed Word that is breath that spoke, IS the perpetual NOW; so therefore when something is spoken to us by that selfsame Spirit and we crucify the flesh to walk in it, then we are in a NOW that is timeless, without beginning and without end. Blessings....


Tell them, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

--Ex 3:14

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #112 on: July 23, 2009, 07:38:19 AM »
Time still exists in timelessness though. Because music needs time in order to be music.
Music can't exist without time.

So there is still time.
but there is just ALWAYS time..
because eternity is time without end.
Whereas this life here is time WITH end.

um.

hmm.

I hate discussions on time.
Why am I here discussing this?  :laughing7:

I have no clue what I just said.
and I'm pretty sure it didn't make a bit of sense.

ok... stepping back out of the conversation.
I need to go meditate on time before I open my mouth again. :msealed:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #113 on: July 23, 2009, 08:07:33 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

WillieH, I can't teach you what is right if what you believe is right can't be wrong.

You "can't teach me" -- WHAT IS RIGHT?  Please brother... I was not born yesterday... such subliminal statements will not pass by me... You wish to "teach me"... and that shall not happen... Making the assumption that what I believe cannot or will not change at your "teaching" that which you consider presently as "right"... (which does not mean that it IS right, it is just your present belief that it is  :dontknow:)

You know so little about me Paul... almost every doctrine I once believed during my 33 year walk with God has changed over time... through study and prayer... No man has ever taught me a thing about GOD... and no man SHALL...

As I said, it is not on my agenda to teach you or change you (which is the biggest difference between us), ...only GOD can do that in either of us bro... I stand upon what I believe, just as do you...

And By the way, the same can be said of yourself brother... to quote your words:  "I can't teach you what is right if what you believe is right, can't be wrong"   :dontknow:  Do you hear yourself brother?  Your own words right back atcha!   :winkgrin:

So for this discussion, I can only say that God is not ALL in ALL  while you believe that now God is ALL in ALL.  So we will have to leave it there.

No we shall not "leave it there"... You just said:  "I can only say that God IS NOT ALL in ALL..."  This is a statement, which claims itself as so...

Then... you go on to say:  "while you believe that now God is ALL in ALL" so we will have to leave it there... alluding to that belief as INCORRECT as noted by your preceeding statement that in your opinion "you cannot TEACH me"... for what I "believe" cannot be wrong...  I left right and wrong long ago brother...

No one is RIGHT and no one is WRONG... we are either VEILED or REVEALED to the truth, and each of our "beliefs" are completely in God's hands and leading... 

This is the situation with the JEWS bro... The OT speaks of CHRIST yet they cannot see Him -- Why?  Because GOD has veiled their Spiritual Eyes from the Revelation of Him...

That is "how" it works brother... continuing:

The way you stated this, sounds as if -- YOU SAY that God is not all in all -- then you state my belief as if that belief is incorrect because of what you just said...

Only God shall teach either of us brother P...  You will never teach me a thing and neither shall I teach YOU... but God can use your words or mine to teach the other, if they bear truth, and HE decides to use them to REVEAL to the other...   :dontknow:

Thus far I have seen you on several occasions making additions to what is said in the TEXT... (which has already been pointed out)...  :dontknow:

Btw... are you going to respond to EITHER of my "challenges" that your words --- "ETERNAL -- is a SPAN of TIME", and... "TIME is -- an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"... ARE completely Unscriptural, ...and thereby proving my "challenges" to be in error -- by noting Scripture which "backs" your statements?  Or shall you ignore them because you cannot back them with Scripture which equates to an admission that they are Unscriptural...

We shall see... so far, you are unable... if I were a bettin' man, I'd bet that I will never see that response...  :dontknow:  Which in part, is why you wish to "leave it be"... an easy way out of responding to those challenges...  :sigh:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 09:34:16 PM by willieH »

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2009, 08:13:22 AM »
willieH: Hi Sparrow...  :cloud9:

Time still exists in timelessness though. Because music needs time in order to be music.

TimeLESSness means without TIME, sis...  :dontknow: ...about time & music:

Quote
Music can't exist without time.

I am a lifelong musician, playing since 5yrs old... MUSIC does not need TIME, it just needs NOW...

Do you think there was NO MUSIC in Eternity, just because TIME had yet to be Created?  :dontknow:

I don't think so... for at the Creation -- the Morning stars SANG -- Job 38:7

Music was not created... (I believe) it has ALWAYS BEEN...

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #115 on: July 23, 2009, 08:32:23 AM »
But...
there has to be time.

It doesn't make sense if time ceased to exist.

how can music exist without time?  :dontknow:

I think there is always going to be the measurement of time but time won't have any of the negative effects it has now.

The passage of time will not involve decay.

(I'm just putting thoughts into words here... bear with me.)
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #116 on: July 23, 2009, 08:35:36 AM »
Cardinal, basically what I am saying is that according to the view I have (and not saying that it is THE view) regarding time as being a reckoning of what was and anticipation of what will be: If, when we die and are to be with God, if our memories as beings which were in the flesh are to be wiped clean (ie no more memories), and we have no expectation of anything to come, THEN there will be no past or future, just now.

As it is, in how I see things, we already are living in the "now" and everything that happens, occurs NOW.

 :cloud9: Hi Seth; I understand what you're saying. Can I just offer this thought? Since there is no time in the Spirit, then the anointed Word that is breath that spoke, IS the perpetual NOW; so therefore when something is spoken to us by that selfsame Spirit and we crucify the flesh to walk in it, then we are in a NOW that is timeless, without beginning and without end. Blessings....

Cardinal, I think we agree on the "now."

I think we may not see "time" the same way, but we are saying the same thing about the "now" aspect of the Spirit. But I will take you one step further with it: What I am saying is that EVERYTHING, that is ALL THINGS that we experience happen in the  now.

I no longer think of "time" as being a timeline like something out of a science fiction film. Timelines, like those of Back to the Future suggest that events happen along a line that can be bounced back and forth, right. And theologians CONTRAST that linear quality with the "now" that is God's experience.

Can you name me any experience you ever had where, when it happened, did not happen in the now? Cardinal, what I am suggesting to you is that "time" itself is NOTHING but a series of memories (past), events that happen now, and what we are promised or anticipate to happen (future). Time is simply a MENTAL construct, a mental method of recall and anticipation, not a physical timeline.

Think of a bad memory you had. It's not happening anymore. It's gone. It only exists IN YOUR MEMORY. It isn't happening on some timeline that you could visit if you had a machine. Everything you experience is NOW.....NOW.......NOW........NOW.......then it's gone, then it is simply memory. That is what the past is, memory and record of things that once happened in the now, which are no longer.

So, I do not see a SEPARATION between "time" and "eternity" as in that eternity is now. It's ALL now.

So the question I have for you, Cardinal: Do you think when your flesh is gone and you are in God completely, that you will have any memory of your life in the flesh?






Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2009, 08:42:41 AM »
But...
there has to be time.

It doesn't make sense if time ceased to exist.

how can music exist without time?  :dontknow:

I think there is always going to be the measurement of time but time won't have any of the negative effects it has now.


I agree. Music is a progression from note to note. Every single note happens NOW, and the music is made when we remember all the notes together (past). Yet the progression is what makes it so beautiful.  :HeartThrob:

I have come to not believe in an eternity where no progression occurs, but have begun to see everything has being now, and then memory, and if we know the song, the anticipation of notes to come. And all put together, that could be considered "time" if one wishes, but I just see it as experience.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2009, 08:51:24 AM »
hmm. ok that makes sense.
but why do we have to give up the idea of "time"?
I mean if that is basically what time is... (the NOW, but the memory of the past and anticipation of the future as in listening to music.)

why can't there still be time?
I get the "now" thing..
but what is this urge to destroy the idea of time?
ok, well maybe there isn't an urge to destroy... but hopefull you all know what I mean.

time is only a negative thing HERE on earth because DECAY happens with the passage of time.

 

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2009, 08:52:41 AM »
man, I told myself not to get into a time discussion...
why don't I ever listen to myself?  :laughing7:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2009, 09:04:49 AM »
Hey Seth,

Quote
predicts that time itself will be resurrected to what God created it to be:

Time is the mould of our created human existence. Sin led to the fact that we have no time, and that we spend a hurried existence between past and future. But the consummation as the glorification of existence will not mean that we are taken out of time and delivered from time, but that time as the form of our glorified existence will also be fulfilled and glorified. Consummation means to live again in the succession of past, present, and future, but in such a way that the past moves along with us as a blessing and the future radiates through the present so that we strive without restlessness and rest without idleness, and so that, though always progressing, we are always at our destination. ~Henry Berkhof [12]

 

I thought that was kind of interesting.
"the past moves along with us as a blessing... (that's pretty cool.)
and the future radiates through the present... (equally cool.)
just thought I'd share.
still pondering..
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #121 on: July 23, 2009, 09:26:54 AM »
man, I told myself not to get into a time discussion...
why don't I ever listen to myself?  :laughing7:

Gonna be quite a noise if all the melodies of all sparrows happen at the same time  :laughing7:
About time. It's just a law of nature as we know it. But in a new creation....?
Plus don't restrict your thinking to 4 dimentions because there are (at least) 10.
Just as an example: I'm sure you have seen drawings on Trinity. (not arguing if it is true or not)
You see in that drawing Father/Son/HS are not equal. You also see all three of them are God. Finally you see them combined as God.
I know that's hard to grasp. Even looks/is a contradiction. But try in your mind to apply that picture to time....
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 09:32:29 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #122 on: July 23, 2009, 09:36:19 AM »
man, I told myself not to get into a time discussion...
why don't I ever listen to myself?  :laughing7:

Gonna be quite a noise if all the melodies of all sparrows happen at the same time  :laughing7:
About time. It's just a law of nature as we know it. But in a new creation....?
Plus don't restrict your thinking to 4 dimentions because there are (at least) 10.
Just as an example: I'm sure you have seen drawings on Trinity. (not arguing if it is true or not)
You see in that drawing Father/Son/HS are not equal. You also see all three of them are God. Finally you see them combined as God.
I know that's hard to grasp. Even looks/is a contradiction. But try in your mind to apply that picture to time....

Dude. Are ya trying to help me here or cause my brain to blow a gasket...?

 :laughing7:

all right, I'll add it to my "ponderings on time" list.

thanks..  :icon_flower:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #123 on: July 23, 2009, 11:45:12 AM »
So the question I have for you, Cardinal: Do you think when your flesh is gone and you are in God completely, that you will have any memory of your life in the flesh?


 :cloud9: Hi Seth........yes I do think I will, but I believe it will be as if it was 'someone else', which of course, it WAS by that point. Blessings..
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2009, 07:00:41 PM »
So the question I have for you, Cardinal: Do you think when your flesh is gone and you are in God completely, that you will have any memory of your life in the flesh?


 :cloud9: Hi Seth........yes I do think I will, but I believe it will be as if it was 'someone else', which of course, it WAS by that point. Blessings..

Cardinal, maybe we are not too far off of eachother on this. The word time carries with it mucho baggage, so allow me to express what I am saying without that four letter word getting in the way. What You mentioned was that time is the measure of death, which I take to mean tracing the decay of corruptible things.

HOWEVER, if we eliminate even decay and death, I still see a "PROGRESSION of existence" wherein we retain memory. Take the example of music that Sparrow brought up. Music is a PROGRESSION of chords and notes, which when listened to always occurs NOW. But if you remove progression from your concept of "eternity" all notes are playing at the same time always (which in itself is a duration). Take a Mozart symphony. If you remove any sense of progression or duration in eternity, all notes would play at the same time. You get noise without understanding. Music is an expression asking for understanding. Play all the notes at once and all understanding is lost and it is no longer music at all.

What I am suggesting is that because decay and death are removed does not mean progression, duration and memory are removed. Just the fact that you will REMEMBER things that happened in the flesh, shows that your time in the flesh is PAST, even while you are in eternity.