Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 22698 times)

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trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #50 on: July 20, 2009, 05:16:02 PM »
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul


Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".





It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #51 on: July 20, 2009, 05:18:01 PM »
How can we always be Him when we are carnal?


Actually your own objection in your OP should tell you that he is.  How else does the carnal mind then come to believe if he was not there in some way the whole time?






The Holy Spirit comes upon us.  We don't always possess the Holy Spirit.

Paul

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #52 on: July 20, 2009, 05:37:33 PM »
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul


Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".





It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul


The process may be,  "all come through Christ"   but our path is not all the same for everyone, our paths are unique. 

Your path is not the same as mine.





Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2009, 05:41:13 PM »
How can we always be Him when we are carnal?


Actually your own objection in your OP should tell you that he is.  How else does the carnal mind then come to believe if he was not there in some way the whole time?






The Holy Spirit comes upon us.  We don't always possess the Holy Spirit.

Paul


Not having possession of that from the start does not prevent the preparation God does for the unique time in which we will.   

God is always with us.


trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2009, 08:08:41 PM »
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul


Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".





It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul


The process may be,  "all come through Christ"   but our path is not all the same for everyone, our paths are unique. 

Your path is not the same as mine.


I think I know what your saying and I would agree.  But I don't agree that there is such thing as a Personal Savior.  I believe the Bible is showing that the "person" is being destroyed and that the only person that gets saved is already saved (Jesus Christ) and that the only way we become saved is to become Him by the destruction of our person.  Therefore, there is no Personal Savior in that sense.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2009, 08:12:23 PM »
How can we always be Him when we are carnal?


Actually your own objection in your OP should tell you that he is.  How else does the carnal mind then come to believe if he was not there in some way the whole time?






The Holy Spirit comes upon us.  We don't always possess the Holy Spirit.

Paul


Not having possession of that from the start does not prevent the preparation God does for the unique time in which we will.   

God is always with us.



God is always loving us and always preparing us for receipt of His Spirit.  I don't want any of us to confuse that of meaning that everyone has received God because God's Spirit is where His Kingdom is and His Kindgom doesn't yet comprise us all.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2009, 08:17:03 PM »
My  :2c:

There is a difference between Christ being a "personal savior" and someone having "your own salvation." Paul said to "work out your own salvation, for it is God in you who both wills and works of his good pleasure" (paraphrase).

We are all in need of a personal salvation if only in that OUR old man must die, as Paul pointed out. In that respect Christ saves the "person" from an old sinful self, and that salvation becomes our own in that we can work outward to the world, our new salvation from sin.

If the evangelical position is that Christ is a personal savior from hell and that he therefore cannot save people from the hell fantasy, then that is what I would disagree with.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2009, 08:27:19 PM »
My  :2c:

There is a difference between Christ being a "personal savior" and someone having "your own salvation." Paul said to "work out your own salvation, for it is God in you who both wills and works of his good pleasure" (paraphrase).

We are all in need of a personal salvation if only in that OUR old man must die, as Paul pointed out. In that respect Christ saves the "person" from an old sinful self, and that salvation becomes our own in that we can work outward to the world, our new salvation from sin.

If the evangelical position is that Christ is a personal savior from hell and that he therefore cannot save people from the hell fantasy, then that is what I would disagree with.

There is NO example of the "person" of the Apostles ever being saved or any disciples or followers of Christ.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2009, 08:32:42 PM »
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2009, 09:34:25 PM »
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul


Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".





It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul


The process may be,  "all come through Christ"   but our path is not all the same for everyone, our paths are unique. 

Your path is not the same as mine.


I think I know what your saying and I would agree.  But I don't agree that there is such thing as a Personal Savior.  I believe the Bible is showing that the "person" is being destroyed and that the only person that gets saved is already saved (Jesus Christ) and that the only way we become saved is to become Him by the destruction of our person.  Therefore, there is no Personal Savior in that sense.

Paul


Well,  you see Jesus in a way personally unique to you and no mans terms, phrases, doctrines, teachings or assertions will change that. 

Let me put it this way....understanding that I agree with your original objection but feel that the term personal saviour has nothing to do with the problem.


It comes down to others expecting that I accept Christ to their satisfaction.


trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2009, 10:36:16 PM »
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ?  There is no "persons" saved.  All of those that are saved have a NEW "person" which is Jesus Christ.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2009, 10:49:07 PM »
Actually He does use others to drag others.  But it is really Him, so both are right.  For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men.  Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself.  But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul


Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways.  What I am saying is that no matter what,  your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".





It isn't unique though.  It is the same path for everyone.  The same process.

Paul


The process may be,  "all come through Christ"   but our path is not all the same for everyone, our paths are unique. 

Your path is not the same as mine.


I think I know what your saying and I would agree.  But I don't agree that there is such thing as a Personal Savior.  I believe the Bible is showing that the "person" is being destroyed and that the only person that gets saved is already saved (Jesus Christ) and that the only way we become saved is to become Him by the destruction of our person.  Therefore, there is no Personal Savior in that sense.

Paul


Well,  you see Jesus in a way personally unique to you and no mans terms, phrases, doctrines, teachings or assertions will change that. 

Let me put it this way....understanding that I agree with your original objection but feel that the term personal saviour has nothing to do with the problem.


It comes down to others expecting that I accept Christ to their satisfaction.



I don't think that I see Jesus in a way that is unique to JUST me.  I believe I see Jesus in a manner that the Apostles did as well.  But again, I think I understand your point.  As to your other point about others expecting you accept Christ to their satisfaction, you may have to clarify a bit more.  For example, we both know that Paul and Peter and the rest of the Apostles must have expected that those following them were going to indeed FOLLOW.  And in fact, we see where Paul rebukes some for not following to his expectation here:

1Co 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Recall this is in his letter to the Corinthian Congregation who is makes rebuke to because he is expecting them to follow his words.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2009, 11:18:38 PM »
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ? 

Paul

Paul said "We were saved in this hope....

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2009, 11:19:23 PM »

I don't think that I see Jesus in a way that is unique to JUST me.  I believe I see Jesus in a manner that the Apostles did as well.  But again, I think I understand your point.  As to your other point about others expecting you accept Christ to their satisfaction, you may have to clarify a bit more.  For example, we both know that Paul and Peter and the rest of the Apostles must have expected that those following them were going to indeed FOLLOW.  And in fact, we see where Paul rebukes some for not following to his expectation here:

1Co 1:12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Recall this is in his letter to the Corinthian Congregation who is makes rebuke to because he is expecting them to follow his words.

Paul


Actually it is what I am saying to believers.  If you say to me that I have to accept Christ a certain way, your expecting me to believe what you say.  Paul is actually saying not to associate his name with what people believe.  

That is quite the opposite of what we see in the major sects of Christianity. We see this alot, such and such wrote a book, such and such has a big church, such and such has a ministry.

1C 1:10 . Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I have two friends who see Christ, but they have been so attacked by christians that they will not offer to anyone the expected words that religion asserts, instead they simply live it.

There is no division between me and my friends even if they have never said the phrase "I accept Jesus Christ"   I know they do in spirit in the unique way they bear fruit.


1C 1:17 . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.








Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #64 on: July 21, 2009, 01:22:56 AM »
willieH:  Hi sister S...

Sorry it took so long to get to this reply sis...  :blush:

I mean my answer in the softest way sis...  :cloud9:  ...If my speech seems a bit direct or at times in this reply, please forgive me, I do not mean to sound at all crass...  :mblush:

Just because I like to tear things apart and be sure of what people are saying...
Now sorry if it sounds like I'm in kindergarten here for a minute, but just bear with a sister.. :laughing7:

Are you saying that we are all going to be morphed into one being?
We will not be separate beings?

It depends on the perception of "being" sis... Is the EYE which is a "being" or essential part of vision, not completely different than the EAR?  Is LOVE which is in the heart not an intangible PART of ourselves, yet has no particular "dimensions" or Physical attributes?

JESUS noted to Nicodemus that he could not PERCIEVE (believe) or behold HEAVENLY THINGS, it was enough for him to try and "get" the Earthly things -- John 3:12

I am no more qualified to explain HEAVENLY THINGS or HEAVENLY EXISTENCE than any other man, it is enough for me to merge into the HEAVENLY "thing" (JESUS), that came here FROM THERE, and check my "perceptions" of HEAVEN at that "door"...

What I DO know is that as we merge into JESUS, we merge into service of the Father, while here on the earth... And it is BEYOND us to KNOW what Heaven holds in store, so it is best we concentrate on the "here & now" instead of speculating on the "there & then"...  :cloud9:

Example... let's say a glass jar is shattered into a billion pieces. Then those billion pieces are melted down and formed back into being a glass jar?

Are we just going to be one big blob?

That would be a speculation of "earthly" perception - eh?  :dontknow:

See... I don't really think that you are saying that.
But it could be construed that way.
But maybe you ARE saying that.?

???

I can only "say" that LOVE definitely exists here... but it cannot be measured by "earthly" means... so may also, be ALL other "Heavenly" things...

Literally, what do you mean "all we are is his body and temple"?
Are you saying that we are Jesus?
But He was shattered into billions of pieces (people) and then they (we, the pieces) are going to morph back into Him literally and become one? So there will be no actual PEOPLE walking around?
Just Him?


You began this question with the word "literally"... and I believe that is where your answer lies... the perception of Heaven, by using LITERAL Earthly perception will arrive at the same futility as trying to measure LOVE with "scale" or "ruler"...

We are each COME FORTH from Him, as ARE ALL THINGS -- Col 1:16-17  If we are extensions of Him, are we not PART of Him?  That we are named HIS BODY and the TEMPLE of GOD, and we are to seek UNITY, ...are we not therefore, SEEKING to make ALL THIS add up to -- ONE:first:

I have my own views and thoughts but I am just trying to dissect what you (and others) are saying.

Keep in mind, I do not come from a church background, so some phrases/terminology is lost on me at times. It makes sense from a spiritual point of view, but then I start thinking... maybe they are talking LITERALLY. Then to me, some of the glory is lost, in my eyes. Then I start to not understand what the heck a person is saying at all. Do you know what I mean?

I did not "grow up" in the "church" either... Though I did have some teaching from my mom in my early days concerning God... My parents were not "church-goers"...

In our desire to KNOW, we must come to a place of humility which notes we cannot KNOW it all...  There will be things to learn every day of our lives... and IN LIVING, shall we LEARN as well as in STUDY...

My advice is to leave "LITERAL" at the door as you seek to enter the SPIRITUAL...  :thumbsup:

I think the reason I question people so much about this topic when it is brought up is because I need to know EXACTLY what people are saying. There are several different viewpoints. For example, I've had experiences with "new age" folks who talk about being one with the source, but they are talking LITERAL, as in all people dissapear back into God. Like we are not even actual beings anymore.


Again... the "LITERAL" man is seeking ONENESS all life long... which is why we MATE, why we TEAMWORK, why we wish to have HARMONY, etc... If one believes IN GOD, and GOD has created this incredible Creation of VARIETY, yet works together to make it viable for ALL... then to suppose that formula shall change in ETERNITY, is pretty INOBSERVANT...

I am not a "scientist or doctor" so forgive this somewhat bumbling attempt --- But, My body works as MANY MEMBERS, to the edification and sustainence of itself:

My BRAIN, using my EYES to observe the food on the plate, and instruct my ARM, assisted by the ELBOW and WRIST, to extend my FINGERS to grasp a fork then the HAND to the plate, to place food in my MOUTH, within the TEETH to chew it so it may be swallowed by my TONGUE and THROAT, that it may reach the STOMACH, which digests the food, and in doing so, separates the nutrients and sends the nutrients through the BLOOD, which is manufactured by the BONE MARROW and then is pumped by the HEART, to the varying parts of the BODY which need these individual nutrients, and in turn the INTESTINES remove the waste and, well you know the rest... :wink: --- THUS the varying MEMBERS in a WONDERFUL and cooperative effort, sustain the BODY as a UNIT=ONE.


We are just basically SWALLOWED up by God, and we still have some consciousness or what have you, but we are just one big "God blob" sort of floating around. Which I have thought about before, and thought to myself... hmmm. If THAT is true, then ok... that's fine, God is God and it's His creation. BUT then my mind wanders over to the picture in my heart and mind of the absolute masterpiece of a world with creatures in love with their Creator... It is an absolute masterpiece.

Might I interrupt for a moment... Does your HEART object to being the heart?  Is it envious or upset that it is not the EYE?  Did GOD not set these into ONE BODY?

It appears to me that you are applying your physical perception to things which NONE of us can KNOW...  I do not know what the RETURN to Heaven shall be, but I can tell you this... there shall be NO OBJECTIONS to what GOD has planned for all of us...

(IMO) What is IMPORTANT while here in this life, ...is to GAIN as much UNITY with GOD and His Creation (all living things) and LOSE as much SELF as possible in that process, while we are here...  :dontknow:

Quote
A true physical world that is so far beyond what our fallen world is. A world with people and creatures and no sin, and nothing but LOVE. And this just absolute WORSHIP of God THROUGH everything in this new world. He is absolutely infused into every molecule and we will be AWARE of that! Everything will be a celebration of God.


I do not disagree with any of that sister S... except the "physical" portion.  Though I do not name ABSOLUTES for I cannot see Heaven and its doings... I see this life as a REFLECTION of what is truly REAL...  The SPIRITUAL is not defined by the PHYSICAL, it is the other way around... GOD is SPIRIT... and that which is TRULY REAL, is SPIRITUAL... for it emanates from Him...

Because, we're just going to be swallowed up by Him. But not swallowed up in the sense that we cease to be.


Again, a quick interruption... Does the HEART "cease to BE" because it is a single MEMBER of a MULTIPLE MEMBER entity?  How about the EYE?

"BEING" is not set upon the PHYSICAL... truely "BEING" is the gathering together of ALL THINGS...  Just as the BODY is truly MAGNIFICENT, because it's workings, are the various MEMBERS within UNITY...

Then I look back on that "morphed into God, as a God-blob" and think... "eh! are you kidding me?!!! That is such a dim, colorless view!" Eye has not seen!!!!  :icon_flower: The picture in my mind, that just seems to grow more colorful and more majestic and just breathtaking, is a real, tangible reality.

Keep in mind, like I said, I have my own views/thoughts/beliefs on this subject, but I DO like to know where others are coming from. When I feel I don't KNOW where someone is coming from regarding a topic I find to be vital, I have to find out what the other person is really truly saying.

There is nothing with having a perception... If you percieve FLOWERS and HONEY and SUMMERTIME, with everyone as INDIVIDUALS as Heaven, then I do not see anything wrong with that... I can only prophesy that it is MUCH MORE than that... for as you just SAID:  EYE (one member) hath not seen, nor EAR (another member) heard... for that matter, MOUTH has not tasted, HAND has not musically played, or painted, or TEETH have not chewed, or LEG and FOOT have not walked, NOSE has not smelled --- 

:icon_flower:  I think you get the picture!  :icon_flower:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #65 on: July 21, 2009, 02:17:41 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :bgdance:

As I previously stated, it is not my endeavor to change your thinking or beliefs... we are all on a journey... and are in different places on that pathway.  It is up to Him when and how that journey shall be adjusted BY HIM... (not me)  :wink1:

The problem with all this willie is that we DIE.  In Him is Life.

I agree, however...

Within HIS KNOWLEDGE is also, DEATH for it is:

(1) within and part of the Creation of YHVH and has been placed BY HIM, within this scenario...
(2) the resultant effect of those who experience EVIL and LEARN its knowledge
(3) ordained to BE, for men are APPOINTED to DIE -- BY HIM...
(4) WRITTEN in His WORD, which is within HIS KNOWLEDGE -- which is within Himself...

Back to my reflexive statement.  That if God is in us then we are in Him.  Remember our witness bears witness with His that we are the Children of God.  So if position stood then it would mean that also in Him is death.  That just isn't so.


Sorry Paul, but DEATH is not only a PART of His Creation, it is an APPOINTMENT made BY HIM for ALL who enter HIS "Creation"...

How can you say that IN HIM (which are ALL THINGS to INCLUDE -- "death"), ...that Death does not exist IN HIM?

DEATH did not "invent" itself!  It is a great portion of the definition of LIFE!

The WORD says that IN HIM is LIFE... though the Scripture  does not say that IN HIM is DEATH, the FACT REMAINS that it IS contained IN HIS  KNOWLEDGE (and FOREKNOWLEDGE), ...which "knowledge" MAN has been exposed to, gained, and which also has been RECOGNIZED BY HIM -- Gen 3:22

DEATH exists within HIS KNOWLEDGE which is His FOREKNOWLEDGE, and which is part of what we are EXPERIENCING in this life... For HE CREATED EVIL, and the resultant penalties associated with its indulgence!

DEATH is WRITTEN in His WORD... which means that HIS WORD contains DEATH, as well as LIFE... does it not?

ALL that is WRITTEN in His WORD, ...exists because of His WORD, does it NOT? -- Col 1:17 -- John 1:3 -- LIGHT ...and... DARKNESS are emergent from HIM are they not?

EVERYTHING that was "MADE" (including DEATH which is APPOINTED by HIM -- Heb 9:27 -- Rev 13:8), was "MADE" BY HIM, ...no?  :dontknow:

It is quite evident, that DISOBEDIENCE exists... did it INVENT ITSELF Paul?   :dontknow: 

What denotes DISOBEDIENCE?  Does not the COMMAND do so? Rom 7:10 -- And if the COMMAND does so... then, do you deduce that "DISOBEDIENCE" to the COMMAND, has nothing to do with the COMMAND?  :dontknow:  How can that be?

It is the IRONY of the Mystery of GOD... that He produces a HOLY and LIFE GIVING  COMMAND, which in turn, by disobedience to it, produces DEATH...

The COMMAND is LIFE GIVING, only when it is OBEYED... and in the ETERNAL, it is so... in TIME it is given NOT to be so... that the CHILDREN can learn the ETERNAL  KNOWLEDGE of Good & Evil...

Wouldn't you agree that God's Spirit is not the same as OUR Spirit?

Our "spirit" IS HIS... it is the portion of HIM that we ARE... We are HIS CHILDREN because HE delegates a part of Himself to US and therein, ...WE ARE...

He has disassociated Himself as GOD, ...from the practice of EVIL, however, He has delegated it to US, that we, as HIS CHILDREN have HIS KNOWLEDGE which is the final element (please excuse my "finite" terminology) -- that makes HIM -- ALL in ALL... for without the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... then there is a part of HIM (His body and temple) which is not invested in His CHILDREN...

I have given the example using WATER... GOD in his knowledge which is COMPLETE, that WATER is WET... and His BODY had never experience WET... so He is "dipping us" into the pool, one (member) at a time that the BODY has ALL the realizations of the HEAD...

KNOWLEDGE is a 2-fold entity... INFORMATION, applied to EXPERIENCE... without experience, it remains just inert INFORMATION.

So if that is the fact then God is not ALL in ALL at this time.  For that to happen then our Spirit must be the same as His.

GOD is ALL in ALL, at ALL TIMES Paul...  What part of Heaven OR Creation EXISTS without Him?

That you and I, within the FINITE realm and existence we are presently in, cannot SEE that He ...IS... ALL in ALL, does not prevent it from BEING...

GOD trancends TIME and ALL that occurs within it... It was DECLARED according to His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE, "beginning" with the END!  DEATH is a part of that FOREKNOWLEDGE and DECLARATION, whether you recognize it or not...

That DEATH was declared and WRITTEN, means that it occurs because HE declared it to occur, and its existence is a portion of HIS KNOWLEDGE which made that DECLARATION...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #66 on: July 21, 2009, 02:20:05 AM »
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ? 

Paul

Paul said "We were saved in this hope....

But I said to mention a person.  You said we but didn't describe that "we".  Paul was a persecuter of the saints.  That is how Paul IS.  Was not that "person" destroyed? - such that Paul was no longer the Paul that persecuted the saints?  Do you really believe it is Paul's person "that" is no longer persecuting the saints?  Wasn't it rather Christ that lived thru Paul that was the "new man" in Paul that didn't persecute the saints?

Paul

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #67 on: July 21, 2009, 02:23:31 AM »
I do not disagree with any of that sister S... except the "physical" portion.  Though I do not name ABSOLUTES for I cannot see Heaven and its doings... I see this life as a REFLECTION of what is truly REAL...  The SPIRITUAL is not defined by the PHYSICAL, it is the other way around... GOD is SPIRIT... and that which is TRULY REAL, is SPIRITUAL... for it emanates from Him...

Hey bro,
What do you mean? You don't believe there will be an actual tangible realm?
Are you sure you are not spiritualizing things too much?
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #68 on: July 21, 2009, 02:24:21 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :bgdance:

As I previously stated, it is not my endeavor to change your thinking or beliefs... we are all on a journey... and are in different places on that pathway.  It is up to Him when and how that journey shall be adjusted BY HIM... (not me)  :wink1:

The problem with all this willie is that we DIE.  In Him is Life.

I agree, however...

Within HIS KNOWLEDGE is also, DEATH for it is:

(1) within and part of the Creation of YHVH and has been placed BY HIM, within this scenario...
(2) the resultant effect of those who experience EVIL and LEARN its knowledge
(3) ordained to BE, for men are APPOINTED to DIE -- BY HIM...
(4) WRITTEN in His WORD, which is within HIS KNOWLEDGE -- which is within Himself...

Back to my reflexive statement.  That if God is in us then we are in Him.  Remember our witness bears witness with His that we are the Children of God.  So if position stood then it would mean that also in Him is death.  That just isn't so.


Sorry Paul, but DEATH is not only a PART of His Creation, it is an APPOINTMENT made BY HIM for ALL who enter HIS "Creation"...

How can you say that IN HIM (which are ALL THINGS to INCLUDE -- "death"), ...that Death does not exist IN HIM?

DEATH did not "invent" itself!  It is a great portion of the definition of LIFE!

The WORD says that IN HIM is LIFE... though the Scripture  does not say that IN HIM is DEATH, the FACT REMAINS that it IS contained IN HIS  KNOWLEDGE (and FOREKNOWLEDGE), ...which "knowledge" MAN has been exposed to, gained, and which also has been RECOGNIZED BY HIM -- Gen 3:22

DEATH exists within HIS KNOWLEDGE which is His FOREKNOWLEDGE, and which is part of what we are EXPERIENCING in this life... For HE CREATED EVIL, and the resultant penalties associated with its indulgence!

DEATH is WRITTEN in His WORD... which means that HIS WORD contains DEATH, as well as LIFE... does it not?

ALL that is WRITTEN in His WORD, ...exists because of His WORD, does it NOT? -- Col 1:17 -- John 1:3 -- LIGHT ...and... DARKNESS are emergent from HIM are they not?

EVERYTHING that was "MADE" (including DEATH which is APPOINTED by HIM -- Heb 9:27 -- Rev 13:8), was "MADE" BY HIM, ...no?  :dontknow:

It is quite evident, that DISOBEDIENCE exists... did it INVENT ITSELF Paul?   :dontknow: 

What denotes DISOBEDIENCE?  Does not the COMMAND do so? Rom 7:10 -- And if the COMMAND does so... then, do you deduce that "DISOBEDIENCE" to the COMMAND, has nothing to do with the COMMAND?  :dontknow:  How can that be?

It is the IRONY of the Mystery of GOD... that He produces a HOLY and LIFE GIVING  COMMAND, which in turn, by disobedience to it, produces DEATH...

The COMMAND is LIFE GIVING, only when it is OBEYED... and in the ETERNAL, it is so... in TIME it is given NOT to be so... that the CHILDREN can learn the ETERNAL  KNOWLEDGE of Good & Evil...

Wouldn't you agree that God's Spirit is not the same as OUR Spirit?

Our "spirit" IS HIS... it is the portion of HIM that we ARE... We are HIS CHILDREN because HE delegates a part of Himself to US and therein, ...WE ARE...

He has disassociated Himself as GOD, ...from the practice of EVIL, however, He has delegated it to US, that we, as HIS CHILDREN have HIS KNOWLEDGE which is the final element (please excuse my "finite" terminology) -- that makes HIM -- ALL in ALL... for without the KNOWLEDGE of G & E... then there is a part of HIM (His body and temple) which is not invested in His CHILDREN...

I have given the example using WATER... GOD in his knowledge which is COMPLETE, that WATER is WET... and His BODY had never experience WET... so He is "dipping us" into the pool, one (member) at a time that the BODY has ALL the realizations of the HEAD...

KNOWLEDGE is a 2-fold entity... INFORMATION, applied to EXPERIENCE... without experience, it remains just inert INFORMATION.

So if that is the fact then God is not ALL in ALL at this time.  For that to happen then our Spirit must be the same as His.

GOD is ALL in ALL, at ALL TIMES Paul...  What part of Heaven OR Creation EXISTS without Him?

That you and I, within the FINITE realm and existence we are presently in, cannot SEE that He ...IS... ALL in ALL, does not prevent it from BEING...

GOD trancends TIME and ALL that occurs within it... It was DECLARED according to His PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE, "beginning" with the END!  DEATH is a part of that FOREKNOWLEDGE and DECLARATION, whether you recognize it or not...

That DEATH was declared and WRITTEN, means that it occurs because HE declared it to occur, and its existence is a portion of HIS KNOWLEDGE which made that DECLARATION...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Well this is definately one of our major divides.  I can't comprend that God is the Spirit of Death and of Life.  For the Spirit of death shares its nature with temptation and sin - which God claims to not do.  I therefore cannot reconcile that with your beliefs.

It's all well brother.  In time we will all share a common knowledge of Truth.  Praise God.

Paul

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #69 on: July 21, 2009, 02:25:24 AM »
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ? 

Paul

Paul said "We were saved in this hope....

But I said to mention a person.  You said we but didn't describe that "we".  Paul was a persecuter of the saints.  That is how Paul IS.  Was not that "person" destroyed? - such that Paul was no longer the Paul that persecuted the saints?  Do you really believe it is Paul's person "that" is no longer persecuting the saints?  Wasn't it rather Christ that lived thru Paul that was the "new man" in Paul that didn't persecute the saints?

Paul

What I believe happens is "I, yet not I"

That is how Paul phrased the exception to his own workings. He would say "I, yet not I." He would acknowledge his own consciousness as an individual and how he did certain things, but then would then cancel himself out by acknowledging the invisible hand of God giving him grace to will and do his work through Paul.

I do not see that Paul's very conscious identity was wiped out, but that he was placed under God's control. Paul acknowledges that there are two consciousness (ie that Paul was aware of what he was doing as being not Christ himself, but under His control)

When Paul says "We were saved in this hope...." he includes himself. He, as a person, was saved from the old him, and so were the other folks included in that we. Paul did not say "we were destroyed in his hope" but that "WE were saved."

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #70 on: July 21, 2009, 06:38:07 AM »
Yes there is. Paul says "WE were saved in this hope..."

Name a "person" that was ever saved other than Jesus Christ? 

Paul

Paul said "We were saved in this hope....

But I said to mention a person.  You said we but didn't describe that "we".  Paul was a persecuter of the saints.  That is how Paul IS.  Was not that "person" destroyed? - such that Paul was no longer the Paul that persecuted the saints?  Do you really believe it is Paul's person "that" is no longer persecuting the saints?  Wasn't it rather Christ that lived thru Paul that was the "new man" in Paul that didn't persecute the saints?

Paul

What I believe happens is "I, yet not I"

That is how Paul phrased the exception to his own workings. He would say "I, yet not I." He would acknowledge his own consciousness as an individual and how he did certain things, but then would then cancel himself out by acknowledging the invisible hand of God giving him grace to will and do his work through Paul.

I do not see that Paul's very conscious identity was wiped out, but that he was placed under God's control. Paul acknowledges that there are two consciousness (ie that Paul was aware of what he was doing as being not Christ himself, but under His control)

When Paul says "We were saved in this hope...." he includes himself. He, as a person, was saved from the old him, and so were the other folks included in that we. Paul did not say "we were destroyed in his hope" but that "WE were saved."

Hi Seth, I don't think we are seeing at all close on this topic either.  Seems we are way far apart in walk.  God bless you brother.

Paul

Offline peacemaker

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #71 on: July 21, 2009, 07:14:58 AM »
Personal Savior?

"Salvation is health, restored by the Spirit of God."

peacemaker

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2009, 08:34:23 AM »
Hi Seth, I don't think we are seeing at all close on this topic either.  Seems we are way far apart in walk.  God bless you brother.

Paul

God bless you too. I have truly enjoyed talking to you.  :HeartThrob:

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2009, 08:41:45 AM »
We fill up where we are, along with God's presence, we take the form of our places.  We are definite in form and unaffected by our circumstances.  We are sons of The Cloud and of The Rock.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." (Revelation 2:17, AV) 

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, AV)

We will always be ever increasing in our distinctiveness.  There will be an increasing secret of identity for God and His offspring, and an increasing revelation of that identity.  What made Moses who he was, or Elijah who he was, or Samuel, or Jesus, or John , or Paul...was the Holy Spirit of God.  They are example of how the closer we are to God, the more unique we are and, simultaneously, the more we have in common.  Each of these famous men of God were very different from one another.  Yet, anybody who comes to them finds much about them with which they can identify.

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ." (1 Corinthians 12:12, AV)

The, "Many, are one..." is descriptive of the nature of God.  We are partaking of the Divine nature.  We are Elohim.  "I have said you all are Elohim; all of you, children of El-Elyon." (Psalm 82:6, AV)  Jesus says, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?  If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." (John 10:34-35, AV)  God may be thought of as a vast family of like beings born of Him. Being of the same nature, all are in fellowship with one another.  This the God Who is Love has purposed and will accomplish.  "And we shall reign in all the earth." (Revelation 5:12, AV)
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2009, 09:16:30 AM »
Quote
We are partaking of the Divine nature.  We are Elohim. 

yes, y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym--the holy arm of God.