Author Topic: Personal Savior? (Read 17174 times)

jabcat · « **Reply #25 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:46:37 AM »

I agree, as I also said, I think that is an interesting verse...and you've pointed out another reason why. So much to know, the glass is so dark, the veil lifted a little at a time.

Funny thing is, I believe if someone who can't read a lick, can't even talk, but if God visits them and gives them faith to believe to what little extent of information/knowledge they may be given...even if they can't pronounce the name of Jesus...if God gives them just the simple faith of a little child, then that's good enough for me

. It's all very interesting, and sometimes I just like to settle back into Daddy's arms and just let Him love me and know He'll take care of everything.

Used to sing/play in a band called "Simple Faith"...our logo was a picture of an oak tree above ground, with a sprouting seed [allusion to a mustard seed] below the soil. I've never forgotten it....

jabcat · « **Reply #26 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:50:30 AM »

You've got me curious now...(I'm obsessive...thanks a lot, Molly

). I may look at it some more, and if you do, please let me know what you find. But I'm wondering if "believing on His name" in essence means "Him...His essence...everything we've been given to know that He is...but especially Savior/Messiah". What do you think?

jabcat · « **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:54:30 AM »

I've looked back on my moment of receiving grace, the faith to believe. I didn't understand many of the things I now know (though very little) of who He is, many of the issues regarding His life, death, fulfillment of the Law, etc. I've even questioned my faith at times because of that. But then to remember coming to Him as a little child...that's simple faith, just living in the simplicity of loving and believing that He IS.

Molly · « **Reply #28 on:** July 19, 2009, 08:51:23 AM »

Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:50:30 AM

You've got me curious now...(I'm obsessive...thanks a lot, Molly ). I may look at it some more, and if you do, please let me know what you find. But I'm wondering if "believing on His name" in essence means "Him...His essence...everything we've been given to know that He is...but especially Savior/Messiah". What do you think?

Yes, it can mean his character and authority which is contained in the name.

His name has a meaning. But it is a very generic meaning

Simeon calls him 'thy salvation.' [Lk 2:30]

This is cross referenced to various old testament verses.

Psalm 119
166 LORD, I hope for Your salvation
and carry out Your commands.

"thy salvation"

y'shû‛âh

Psalm 119
174 I long for Your salvation, LORD,
and Your instruction is my delight.

"thy salvation"

y'shû‛âh

But this is my favorite

Isaiah 52

10 The LORD has displayed His holy arm
in the sight of all the nations;
all the ends of the earth will see
the salvation of our God.

"the salvation"

y'shû‛âh

"of our God"

'ĕlôhîym

y'shû‛âh 'ĕlôhîym--That name is plural.

reFORMer · « **Reply #29 on:** July 19, 2009, 09:23:27 AM »

Mostly, to speak of Jesus as a "personal savior" has to do with the fact He relates to us as persons; that is, person to person. This is meant as a comprehensive category of selfhood. We have used it because we want people to meet Him, the essence of the person Jesus manifesting to us. When I began My walk with the Lord I went to a different church gathering every night, even though I had to hitchhike to do so. I saw that their doctrines differed in various way and I already knew that some if it was wrong for sure. What was amazing was that I saw Jesus in these people, regardless of their beliefs. That is because He relates to us on a personal level.

The phrase, "personal savior" came into use with the circuit riding, frontier revivalists and wandering evangelists on horseback toward the middle of the 1800's. http://www.cantonbaptist.org/halloffame/fuller.htm
(Though this url isn't working for me, I offer it in hopes someone my be able to get to the article it is meant to access.)
What made the phrase popular was was the constant use of it by Charles Fuller (1887-1968) on his radio program. "Old Fashioned Gospel Hour" from the USA went into all the world on over 500 radio stations from the 40's through the 60's.

Our salvation is not limited to what we consider our personal lives. It includes every aspect of existence. But, what seems to me to be the biggest problem is the real God is manifesting through a many membered man. That is, He is in others, not just our own individualistic, selfish "person." However we may undergo times of either discipline that seperates us to God Who is JEALOUS, or troubles when there is none around us to understand and help carry our burden, what the old gospel song says is not quite the truth, "There's room for just two...Just Jesus and me, on the Calvary Road." Once you clue in on this it is very amazing how popular media preachers virually never have reference to the bride. The body of Christ with every member functioning under the headship of Christ as a specific form of meeting is virtually unknow in mainstream evangelicalism's "liturgy." The Church is not on the program. Never. It is simple: if I don't know Jesus in others I probably don't know Jesus at all.

Cardinal · « **Reply #30 on:** July 19, 2009, 03:58:06 PM »

Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:01:27 AM

Call on the name of the Lord and YOU SHALL BE saved.

Believe, confess, repent...Romans 10:14,15 states.. "How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?"

Nah, I believe there are too many scriptures to not believe God's Spirit individually visits each and every person when it's their time to be given faith to believe. It's called getting saved, and we all must be. Some now, the rest later. Only by His grace, nothing we do to earn it. It's only as suits His purposes and plans as far as timing.

"What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved" (I Peter 5:7). The universal part is all will come face to face with Yesu, one time or another; and one way or another, will all bow and confess Him as Lord. "All" doesn't preclude "each".

That's the way I believed too, Jab. But it's interesting to note that the word translated saved, is the same as translated deliverance elsewhere. When we acknowledge Him as Lord, we are 'saved' in the sense of being delivered of the darkness that comprehended not the light within. That moment of 'realization' is what we formerly call, 'being saved'.

But it's also an active verb, not a passive noun, ie. we have been delivered, we are delivered, we are being delivered. Turning to Him within, and 'asking Him in', are two different things.

In tabernacle terms, the way He showed this to me one day was, He spoke to me, "There were two trees in the MIDST of the garden." Then He showed me what they were, ie. the candlestick and the table of shewbread in that pattern.

Then it dawned on me via revelation, that if the inner court of the priesthood was the MIDST of the garden, then that meant that the outer court where ALL else 'resided', was His garden too.

He is the good seed planted in the field which Matt. 13 tells you is, the WORLD. The reason is it important to have this revelation is because until we see that He is in all people, only as a Seed that has not begun to 'sprout' yet, we cannot begin to partake of the feast of TABERNACLES, because we have not discerned the Lord's body. Blessings...

claypot · « **Reply #31 on:** July 19, 2009, 04:38:25 PM »

Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:25:31 AM

Amen. I too believe that. He chooses, gives the faith to believe. The following I find to be a quite interesting scripture (and could be confusing if not reconciled with the other verses that show He does the choosing and providing faith)...But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

What I find interesting is how God allows the phrasing of His Word to us. He absolutely knew it would cause untold confusion. Why would He do that? Even among those led by the Spirit are so confused because of how Scripture is written. Why did not God make it clear? There is something in my question that intrigues me about God.

cp

Molly · « **Reply #32 on:** July 19, 2009, 04:53:45 PM »

Quote

Why did not God make it clear?

Because it is the honour of kings to search out the glory of God.

2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

--Prov 25:2

trettep · « **Reply #33 on:** July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM »

The SELF is destroyed when we are converted to Christ. So He is not a "personal savior". We CEASE to exist as who we were before. If we do not cease to exist as who we were before then we are not converted. Hence that what "conversion" is. It is to convert to something new. We are told repeatedly in scripture to conform to Christ. Our mission is to BECOME Christ-like. After all to be in "the name of Jesus Christ" is to be AS Jesus Christ. This concept of accept Christ as my personal savior seems to imply that my person will remain when that is the farthest thing from the Truth. For my person shall be destroyed when I put on Christ. I will cease to be me and become Him. All of the Apostles became Christ. They were ceasing to be themselves.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified with Him - that is US - that is who WE are. Not Him. That is OUR PERSON.

So as you can see. I have a big problem with saying our "personal savior". Because it doesn't make sense in light of scripture. It implies that perspective that God is simply allowing your person to exist and that your person ACCEPTs Christ. That is not how it works. Conversion is a DRAGGING process. The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

It might sound "nice" but it is very destructive statement.

Paul

claypot · « **Reply #34 on:** July 19, 2009, 05:39:47 PM »

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 04:53:45 PM

Quote
Why did not God make it clear?

Because it is the honour of kings to search out the glory of God.

2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

--Prov 25:2

Now I know why the game of hide and seek is so popular!!!

cp

Paul Hazelwood · « **Reply #35 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:02:51 PM »

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM

Conversion is a DRAGGING process. The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

He drags you personally, He doesn't drag me to drag you. He drags us both in unique ways.

Certain doctrines are destructive even if you never use the phrase.

Prosperity doctrines are one example. If you rub the bottle correctly, the genie comes out and grants your wishes and if you do not get your wishes granted, sorry for you, you didn't run the bottle good enough.

Cardinal · « **Reply #36 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:09:12 PM »

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM

The SELF is destroyed when we are converted to Christ. So He is not a "personal savior". We CEASE to exist as who we were before. If we do not cease to exist as who we were before then we are not converted. Hence that what "conversion" is. It is to convert to something new. We are told repeatedly in scripture to conform to Christ. Our mission is to BECOME Christ-like. After all to be in "the name of Jesus Christ" is to be AS Jesus Christ. This concept of accept Christ as my personal savior seems to imply that my person will remain when that is the farthest thing from the Truth. For my person shall be destroyed when I put on Christ. I will cease to be me and become Him. All of the Apostles became Christ. They were ceasing to be themselves.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified with Him - that is US - that is who WE are. Not Him. That is OUR PERSON.

So as you can see. I have a big problem with saying our "personal savior". Because it doesn't make sense in light of scripture. It implies that perspective that God is simply allowing your person to exist and that your person ACCEPTs Christ. That is not how it works. Conversion is a DRAGGING process. The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

It might sound "nice" but it is very destructive statement.

Paul

This is very true. I'll use this personal example from 3 years ago. I was listening to Christian radio station and singing along to a song with the lyrics, "I want you to live though me, Lord."

The Lord broke in and said, "That's a lie. I want you to die, so I can live." Simple, but effective object lesson, roflol. Blessings.....

Molly · « **Reply #37 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:20:25 PM »

Quote

The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

And what makes you think that 'I' am my carnal mind any more than 'I' am my foot or my hand?

If I lose my foot, do I lose me?

trettep · « **Reply #38 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:45:53 PM »

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 19, 2009, 07:02:51 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM
Conversion is a DRAGGING process. The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

He drags you personally, He doesn't drag me to drag you. He drags us both in unique ways.

Certain doctrines are destructive even if you never use the phrase.

Prosperity doctrines are one example. If you rub the bottle correctly, the genie comes out and grants your wishes and if you do not get your wishes granted, sorry for you, you didn't run the bottle good enough.

Actually He does use others to drag others. But it is really Him, so both are right. For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men. Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself. But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.

Paul

trettep · « **Reply #39 on:** July 19, 2009, 07:55:06 PM »

Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2009, 07:09:12 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 05:09:23 PM
The SELF is destroyed when we are converted to Christ. So He is not a "personal savior". We CEASE to exist as who we were before. If we do not cease to exist as who we were before then we are not converted. Hence that what "conversion" is. It is to convert to something new. We are told repeatedly in scripture to conform to Christ. Our mission is to BECOME Christ-like. After all to be in "the name of Jesus Christ" is to be AS Jesus Christ. This concept of accept Christ as my personal savior seems to imply that my person will remain when that is the farthest thing from the Truth. For my person shall be destroyed when I put on Christ. I will cease to be me and become Him. All of the Apostles became Christ. They were ceasing to be themselves.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified with Him - that is US - that is who WE are. Not Him. That is OUR PERSON.

So as you can see. I have a big problem with saying our "personal savior". Because it doesn't make sense in light of scripture. It implies that perspective that God is simply allowing your person to exist and that your person ACCEPTs Christ. That is not how it works. Conversion is a DRAGGING process. The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

It might sound "nice" but it is very destructive statement.

Paul

This is very true. I'll use this personal example from 3 years ago. I was listening to Christian radio station and singing along to a song with the lyrics, "I want you to live though me, Lord."

The Lord broke in and said, "That's a lie. I want you to do, so I can live." Simple, but effective object lesson, roflol. Blessings.....

It is the "me" part that goes away. I tell people, that who I am without Christ is a child molester, a murderer, a thief, a tyrant, a dictator, etc... Because that is the nature that is who I was. I was only kept in check by fear. Fear opportunity was my guide to keep me in check. Many will not acknowledge that. I tell people that I MURDERED Christ. Yes, I killed my passover lamb. Others will gasp and say they didn't as if they are disgusted to believe they could be so vile. Yet Jesus says their carnal mind HATES God. Until we can realize how VILE we actually are and that ourselves (our spirit - the spirit of me) must die then we doesn't possess the understanding that converts the heart.

Paul

trettep · « **Reply #40 on:** July 19, 2009, 08:00:39 PM »

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 07:20:25 PM

Quote
The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

And what makes you think that 'I' am my carnal mind any more than 'I' am my foot or my hand?

If I lose my foot, do I lose me?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Are you saying you never had a carnal mind? For if you did have that mind then it had to be destroyed didn't it?

If your a descendant of Adam then you have a carnal mind that needs to be destroyed.

Paul says:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul

willieH · « **Reply #41 on:** July 19, 2009, 09:52:43 PM »

willieH: Hi Sister Sparrow...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM

I'm disappearing? I'm not going to be me anymore?

Of course not... you are realizing WHO and WHAT you ARE, ...IN HIM.

If HE is increasing and you are decreasing, what is in fact occuring is the manifestation and REALIZATION of the fact that all "we are" is HIS BODY and TEMPLE! And the manifestation of "increasing/decreasing" is the revelation of that fact, sis...

IOW -- "we" are really not ..."we", never really were... "we" are just parts and portions of HIM... What an HONOR!

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM

Then what is the point in having all of these people if we are all just turning into Jesus. Why not just have Jesus and not have any of these other billions of people?

The "point" is that the EYE (one person) is not the EAR (another person)... all these "people" that we observe "we are", ...ARE portions of HIM and therefore, portions of HIS BODY and TEMPLE... Not individuals, but PART of HIM and Who and What HE ...IS...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM

But it's that leaning into Jesus and following HIM, His example, His LOVE, we are becoming what God has always meant for us to be. We are being transformed, not INTO Him, but BECAUSE of Him.

I agree it is BECAUSE of Him, ....but I think that we are not transforming "INto" Him... we are transforming BACK to Him... which is WHO and WHAT we have ALWAYS BEEN... The LOST Son, was WITH the FATHER (who IS the Savior -- Isaiah 43:11)... LEFT (became LOST) then CAME BACK... GOD is EVERYWHERE, including "where" we are when we are LOST... and He does not abandon us when we are in this condition... on the contrary, it is HIS PRESENCE and LOVE, which delivers us from that LOST condition, for HIS LOVE is WITH us when we are in this condition, and brings us OUT of it... at HIS descretion and in HIS time...

CHRIST, nor YHVH ...ever CHANGE! -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 -- They ALWAYS ARE, what they ARE... And "we" are named as their TEMPLE and BODY within the WORD which cannot LIE -- 1 Cor 6:17

The "REVELATION" of JESUS CHRIST is just that... CHRIST -- REVEALED in ALL...

The WORD "reveals" JESUS, who never changes... If He never "changes" then He IS, always "HOW" He IS... and "WHERE" He IS...

JESUS said: Heb 13:5 "I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee"... this cannot be a true statement if in fact He is NOT a part of YOU at ALL TIMES... for the word NEVER means "NOT AT ...ANY... TIME"...

This Scripture doesn't say: "Once I enter your life I will never leave you or forsake you"... It SAYS: "I will NEVER LEAVE you nor forsake you" -- period.

Also... the Scripture notes: Matt 28:19 -- "Lo I am WITH YOU ...ALWAYS... even unto the end of the world [age]" (not "from now on -- unto the end")

If JESUS is "with us "ALWAYS"... then He has ALWAYS been WITH US...

Which verifies that, ...He and the Father, NEVER changes...

sister S...

...willieH

trettep · « **Reply #42 on:** July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM »

Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2009, 09:52:43 PM

willieH: Hi Sister Sparrow...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
I'm disappearing? I'm not going to be me anymore?

Of course not... you are realizing WHO and WHAT you ARE, ...IN HIM.

If HE is increasing and you are decreasing, what is in fact occuring is the manifestation and REALIZATION of the fact that all "we are" is HIS BODY and TEMPLE! And the manifestation of "increasing/decreasing" is the revelation of that fact, sis...

IOW -- "we" are really not ..."we", never really were... "we" are just parts and portions of HIM... What an HONOR!

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
Then what is the point in having all of these people if we are all just turning into Jesus. Why not just have Jesus and not have any of these other billions of people?

The "point" is that the EYE (one person) is not the EAR (another person)... all these "people" that we observe "we are", ...ARE portions of HIM and therefore, portions of HIS BODY and TEMPLE... Not individuals, but PART of HIM and Who and What HE ...IS...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
But it's that leaning into Jesus and following HIM, His example, His LOVE, we are becoming what God has always meant for us to be. We are being transformed, not INTO Him, but BECAUSE of Him.

I agree it is BECAUSE of Him, ....but I think that we are not transforming "INto" Him... we are transforming BACK to Him... which is WHO and WHAT we have ALWAYS BEEN... The LOST Son, was WITH the FATHER (who IS the Savior -- Isaiah 43:11)... LEFT (became LOST) then CAME BACK... GOD is EVERYWHERE, including "where" we are when we are LOST... and He does not abandon us when we are in this condition... on the contrary, it is HIS PRESENCE and LOVE, which delivers us from that LOST condition, for HIS LOVE is WITH us when we are in this condition, and brings us OUT of it... at HIS descretion and in HIS time...

CHRIST, nor YHVH ...ever CHANGE! -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 -- They ALWAYS ARE, what they ARE... And "we" are named as their TEMPLE and BODY within the WORD which cannot LIE -- 1 Cor 6:17

The "REVELATION" of JESUS CHRIST is just that... CHRIST -- REVEALED in ALL...

The WORD "reveals" JESUS, who never changes... If He never "changes" then He IS, always "HOW" He IS... and "WHERE" He IS...

JESUS said: Heb 13:5 "I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee"... this cannot be a true statement if in fact He is NOT a part of YOU at ALL TIMES... for the word NEVER means "NOT AT ...ANY... TIME"...

This Scripture doesn't say: "Once I enter your life I will never leave you or forsake you"... It SAYS: "I will NEVER LEAVE you nor forsake you" -- period.

Also... the Scripture notes: Matt 28:19 -- "Lo I am WITH YOU ...ALWAYS... even unto the end of the world [age]" (not "from now on -- unto the end")

If JESUS is "with us "ALWAYS"... then He has ALWAYS been WITH US...

Which verifies that, ...He and the Father, NEVER changes...

sister S...

...willieH

I disagree with this Willie. How can we always be Him when we are carnal? That would mean that the reflexive also true in that if we are Him then He is us. Can the child of Satan be also the child of God at the same time? If so, why be RENEWED by the Holy Spirit?

Paul

sparrow · « **Reply #43 on:** July 19, 2009, 10:35:33 PM »

Quote from: willieH on July 19, 2009, 09:52:43 PM

willieH: Hi Sister Sparrow...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
I'm disappearing? I'm not going to be me anymore?

Of course not... you are realizing WHO and WHAT you ARE, ...IN HIM.

If HE is increasing and you are decreasing, what is in fact occuring is the manifestation and REALIZATION of the fact that all "we are" is HIS BODY and TEMPLE! And the manifestation of "increasing/decreasing" is the revelation of that fact, sis...

IOW -- "we" are really not ..."we", never really were... "we" are just parts and portions of HIM... What an HONOR!

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
Then what is the point in having all of these people if we are all just turning into Jesus. Why not just have Jesus and not have any of these other billions of people?

The "point" is that the EYE (one person) is not the EAR (another person)... all these "people" that we observe "we are", ...ARE portions of HIM and therefore, portions of HIS BODY and TEMPLE... Not individuals, but PART of HIM and Who and What HE ...IS...

Quote from: sparrow on July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM
But it's that leaning into Jesus and following HIM, His example, His LOVE, we are becoming what God has always meant for us to be. We are being transformed, not INTO Him, but BECAUSE of Him.

I agree it is BECAUSE of Him, ....but I think that we are not transforming "INto" Him... we are transforming BACK to Him... which is WHO and WHAT we have ALWAYS BEEN... The LOST Son, was WITH the FATHER (who IS the Savior -- Isaiah 43:11)... LEFT (became LOST) then CAME BACK... GOD is EVERYWHERE, including "where" we are when we are LOST... and He does not abandon us when we are in this condition... on the contrary, it is HIS PRESENCE and LOVE, which delivers us from that LOST condition, for HIS LOVE is WITH us when we are in this condition, and brings us OUT of it... at HIS descretion and in HIS time...

CHRIST, nor YHVH ...ever CHANGE! -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 -- They ALWAYS ARE, what they ARE... And "we" are named as their TEMPLE and BODY within the WORD which cannot LIE -- 1 Cor 6:17

The "REVELATION" of JESUS CHRIST is just that... CHRIST -- REVEALED in ALL...

The WORD "reveals" JESUS, who never changes... If He never "changes" then He IS, always "HOW" He IS... and "WHERE" He IS...

JESUS said: Heb 13:5 "I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee"... this cannot be a true statement if in fact He is NOT a part of YOU at ALL TIMES... for the word NEVER means "NOT AT ...ANY... TIME"...

This Scripture doesn't say: "Once I enter your life I will never leave you or forsake you"... It SAYS: "I will NEVER LEAVE you nor forsake you" -- period.

Also... the Scripture notes: Matt 28:19 -- "Lo I am WITH YOU ...ALWAYS... even unto the end of the world [age]" (not "from now on -- unto the end")

If JESUS is "with us "ALWAYS"... then He has ALWAYS been WITH US...

Which verifies that, ...He and the Father, NEVER changes...

sister S...

...willieH

Just because I like to tear things apart and be sure of what people are saying...
Now sorry if it sounds like I'm in kindergarten here for a minute, but just bear with a sister..

Are you saying that we are all going to be morphed into one being?
We will not be separate beings?

Example... let's say a glass jar is shattered into a billion pieces. Then those billion pieces are melted down and formed back into being a glass jar?

Are we just going to be one big blob?

See... I don't really think that you are saying that.
But it could be construed that way.
But maybe you ARE saying that.?

???

Literally, what do you mean "all we are is his body and temple"?
Are you saying that we are Jesus?
But He was shattered into billions of pieces (people) and then they (we, the pieces) are going to morph back into Him literally and become one? So there will be no actual PEOPLE walking around?
Just Him?

I have my own views and thoughts but I am just trying to dissect what you (and others) are saying.

Keep in mind, I do not come from a church background, so some phrases/terminology is lost on me at times. It makes sense from a spiritual point of view, but then I start thinking... maybe they are talking LITERALLY. Then to me, some of the glory is lost, in my eyes. Then I start to not understand what the heck a person is saying at all. Do you know what I mean?

I think the reason I question people so much about this topic when it is brought up is because I need to know EXACTLY what people are saying. There are several different viewpoints. For example, I've had experiences with "new age" folks who talk about being one with the source, but they are talking LITERAL, as in all people dissapear back into God. Like we are not even actual beings anymore. We are just basically SWALLOWED up by God, and we still have some consciousness or what have you, but we are just one big "God blob" sort of floating around. Which I have thought about before, and thought to myself... hmmm. If THAT is true, then ok... that's fine, God is God and it's His creation. BUT then my mind wanders over to the picture in my heart and mind of the absolute masterpiece of a world with creatures in love with their Creator... It is an absolute masterpiece. A true physical world that is so far beyond what our fallen world is. A world with people and creatures and no sin, and nothing but LOVE. And this just absolute WORSHIP of God THROUGH everything in this new world. He is absolutely infused into every molecule and we will be AWARE of that! Everything will be a celebration of God. Because, we're just going to be swallowed up by Him. But not swallowed up in the sense that we cease to be. Then I look back on that "morphed into God, as a God-blob" and think... "eh! are you kidding me?!!! That is such a dim, colorless view!" Eye has not seen!!!!

The picture in my mind, that just seems to grow more colorful and more majestic and just breathtaking, is a real, tangible reality.

Keep in mind, like I said, I have my own views/thoughts/beliefs on this subject, but I DO like to know where others are coming from. When I feel I don't KNOW where someone is coming from regarding a topic I find to be vital, I have to find out what the other person is really truly saying.

Thanks!

Molly · « **Reply #44 on:** July 19, 2009, 11:11:17 PM »

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 08:00:39 PM

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 07:20:25 PM
Quote
The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

And what makes you think that 'I' am my carnal mind any more than 'I' am my foot or my hand?

If I lose my foot, do I lose me?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Are you saying you never had a carnal mind? For if you did have that mind then it had to be destroyed didn't it?

If your a descendant of Adam then you have a carnal mind that needs to be destroyed.

Paul says:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul

I am saying that I am still me without a carnal mind, without a carnal hand, without a carnal foot, without a carnal eye--it might change my behavior (I can't run and play ball and kill Christians anymore) but none of it changes who "I" am.

trettep · « **Reply #45 on:** July 20, 2009, 01:10:25 AM »

Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 11:11:17 PM

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 08:00:39 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 19, 2009, 07:20:25 PM
Quote
The carnal mind hates God. It isn't going to ACCEPT Christ. It is IMPOSSIBLE for the carnal mind to accept Christ.

And what makes you think that 'I' am my carnal mind any more than 'I' am my foot or my hand?

If I lose my foot, do I lose me?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Are you saying you never had a carnal mind? For if you did have that mind then it had to be destroyed didn't it?

If your a descendant of Adam then you have a carnal mind that needs to be destroyed.

Paul says:

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul
I am saying that I am still me without a carnal mind, without a carnal hand, without a carnal foot, without a carnal eye--it might change my behavior (I can't run and play ball and kill Christians anymore) but none of it changes who "I" am.

Hi Molly, just trying to follow what your saying. Your saying your still YOU without a carnal mind? How can that be? Can you see that only ONE person was saved? Saul is gone. Peter, Matthew, Luke, etc... all of them are GONE. They are destroyed. They ceased to exist. Their spirits in times past dealt in evil where they followed death and were in bondage to fear. That was WHO they were. As our beloved Apostles they are no longer WHO they were since those persons were destroyed when they put on Christ. Our Lord is going to sit as a refiners fire and as fullers soap. A refiners fire removes the dross (that dross never returns). The fullers used their soap to make a garment white (Our Lord is going to make our robes white).

God gives us more knowledge of the Truth the more we walk in the Truth given.

Paul

willieH · « **Reply #46 on:** July 20, 2009, 06:35:00 AM »

willieH: Hi Paul...

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM

I disagree with this Willie. How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Disagreement is fine with me, bro...

HE is ALWAYS with us... that it is stated in several places does not remove it because we would "disagree" with it...

GOD is working ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- which means that HE has to DO, with ALL THINGS...

GOD is EVERYWHERE... Even Paul noted that we are IN HIM and we LIVE and move and have our being IN HIM... He is therefore ALWAYS with us...

When we are CARNAL... Our "vision" (spiritually) is VEILED by that CARNALITY... the GLORY of CHRIST is REVEALED ...IN US... something cannot be "REVEALED" IN US, that was not there all along -- Rom 8:18 -- something "REVEALED" is THERE, just obscured from vision (either physically or spiritually) -- the word "revealed" in this verse means to "take off the cover" --

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM

That would mean that the reflexive also true in that if we are Him then He is us.

You are beginning to get it bro... HE is US... the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD ...AND... EVIL... is displayed BY HIM in HIS WORKING of ALL THINGS!

Within OUR EXPERIENCE, which was completely FOREKNOWN by HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE, that this KNOWLEDGE (of G & E) which would be REVEALED, by this experience IN US...

He is NOT EVIL, and neither are we... WE are (being) made in HIS IMAGE which is NOT EVIL... it is GOOD, but the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL is also contained in WHO and WHAT He ...IS... and in making us IN His image... an intimate experience with WHAT EVIL is (to its dramatic and awful potential)... must be had in order to be enabled the vision of GOOD (in its dramatic and wonderful potential)

IOW... If all evil ended up being, as a little stubbed toe... WHAT of the wonders of ETERNAL GOOD are exposed in that little mishap? ...But when Earthquakes, Hurricanes, Tornadoes and other such NATURAL disasters occur... a nice clear day is well appreciated, and has been exposed to the extreme in this massive display, dontcha think?

Or when Alzheimers, Murder, Rape, starvation, AIDS, cancer (bringing DEATH in all forms) and other such NATURAL and personally intimate oppositions are presented to us... the GOOD states of HEALTH and YOUTH of mind, body and spirit, are seen to be in STARK CONTRAST, are they not?

As I said earlier, GOD does NOT CHANGE... so, whatever He is, ... HE (always) IS what He IS... (and He IS ALL in ALL)...

What is happening here in this realm, is that He "created EVIL" which was GOD making a PHYSICAL Universe, in which a thing called TIME would elapse, and the EVIL He "created" would be found and generated in the PHYSICAL (US -- which of ourselves, pose OPPOSITION to GOOD)... DETERIORATING and DISOBEYING the COMMANDS which HE IS... and IN which He abides...

He thereby CONVEYS the ETERNAL knowledge of GOOD and EVIL to each one that experiences it, via the experience of HIS BODY (us) within this FINITE realm of TIME...

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM

Can the child of Satan be also the child of God at the same time? If so, why be RENEWED by the Holy Spirit?

Satan is just the principality of ADVERSITY which was ALSO created by YHVH... and placed within the makeup of MAN... that the CHILDREN of YHVH, which are collectively -- His TEMPLE and BODY... will come to KNOW GOOD and EVIL...

It kind of surprises me that you object to this, for in many instances and in many examples, you have been speaking of this in the "YOU are satan" thread!

The "child" of "satan" is the submission to ADVERSITY against the COMMAND of GOD... NOT born of some mythical "evil" being which is everywhere... rather, it is the NATURAL BEAST that man IS, and DESPARATELY WICKED Heart within man which is CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF ...BY YHVH... that man gains the KNOWLEDGE via this experience of UNBELIEF... (which is SIN, which is part of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil)...

"Renewing" is a process bro... as Paul and John noted, we remain capable of sinning, even after we have entered into a relationship with CHRIST... the WAR which Paul notes continues... for our flesh, now defiled of SIN, wishes to continue in it... AS we submit to the mind of CHRIST within (inward man)... we maintain via HIM, the control and OBEDIENCE over that which proposes ADVERSE DISOBEDIENCE (to be our resultant experience)

As I see it, ...in order for CHRIST to say He will NEVER leave us, or for Him to say that He shall ALWAYS be with us... means that He has ALWAYS been WITH US... And thereby has NEVER left us.

Also -- Rom 8:38-39 -- Paul was PERSUADED that there is NO POWER whatsoever that can SEPARATE us from the LOVE of GOD which is IN CHRIST JESUS... If there is NOTHING that can SEPARATE us from Him, how can we be SEPARATED?

The LOVE of GOD, ...has NEVER been SEPARATE from us at ANY TIME, and has been WITH US all along...

I am not endeavoring to convince you of anything brother P... You are welcome to disagree with what I have said here, and I have no problem with said disagreements... it is just my present observational view --

-- Taking all the pertinent texts (of which I am aware) ...into consideration...

...willieH

Paul Hazelwood · « **Reply #47 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:09:20 AM »

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 07:45:53 PM

Actually He does use others to drag others. But it is really Him, so both are right. For example, Jesus told his disciples to follow Him and He would make them fishers of men. Those fishermen that were called used nets which they dragged to themselves. In like manner, Jesus would use those Spiritual Fishermen to drag others to Himself. But since they work they do is Christ Jesus in them then "yes", it would be Jesus dragging them.
Paul

Not disagreeing with the basics here, God uses all sorts of ways. What I am saying is that no matter what, your path is unique and personal, but not "exclusive".

Paul Hazelwood · « **Reply #48 on:** July 20, 2009, 07:16:12 AM »

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM

How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Actually your own objection in your OP should tell you that he is. How else does the carnal mind then come to believe if he was not there in some way the whole time?

trettep · « **Reply #49 on:** July 20, 2009, 05:06:49 PM »

Quote from: willieH on July 20, 2009, 06:35:00 AM

willieH: Hi Paul...

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
I disagree with this Willie. How can we always be Him when we are carnal?

Disagreement is fine with me, bro...

HE is ALWAYS with us... that it is stated in several places does not remove it because we would "disagree" with it...

GOD is working ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- which means that HE has to DO, with ALL THINGS...

GOD is EVERYWHERE... Even Paul noted that we are IN HIM and we LIVE and move and have our being IN HIM... He is therefore ALWAYS with us...

When we are CARNAL... Our "vision" (spiritually) is VEILED by that CARNALITY... the GLORY of CHRIST is REVEALED ...IN US... something cannot be "REVEALED" IN US, that was not there all along -- Rom 8:18 -- something "REVEALED" is THERE, just obscured from vision (either physically or spiritually) -- the word "revealed" in this verse means to "take off the cover" --

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
That would mean that the reflexive also true in that if we are Him then He is us.

You are beginning to get it bro... HE is US... the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD ...AND... EVIL... is displayed BY HIM in HIS WORKING of ALL THINGS!

Within OUR EXPERIENCE, which was completely FOREKNOWN by HIS PERFECT FOREKNOWLEDGE, that this KNOWLEDGE (of G & E) which would be REVEALED, by this experience IN US...

He is NOT EVIL, and neither are we... WE are (being) made in HIS IMAGE which is NOT EVIL... it is GOOD, but the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL is also contained in WHO and WHAT He ...IS... and in making us IN His image... an intimate experience with WHAT EVIL is (to its dramatic and awful potential)... must be had in order to be enabled the vision of GOOD (in its dramatic and wonderful potential)

IOW... If all evil ended up being, as a little stubbed toe... WHAT of the wonders of ETERNAL GOOD are exposed in that little mishap? ...But when Earthquakes, Hurricanes, Tornadoes and other such NATURAL disasters occur... a nice clear day is well appreciated, and has been exposed to the extreme in this massive display, dontcha think?

Or when Alzheimers, Murder, Rape, starvation, AIDS, cancer (bringing DEATH in all forms) and other such NATURAL and personally intimate oppositions are presented to us... the GOOD states of HEALTH and YOUTH of mind, body and spirit, are seen to be in STARK CONTRAST, are they not?

As I said earlier, GOD does NOT CHANGE... so, whatever He is, ... HE (always) IS what He IS... (and He IS ALL in ALL)...

What is happening here in this realm, is that He "created EVIL" which was GOD making a PHYSICAL Universe, in which a thing called TIME would elapse, and the EVIL He "created" would be found and generated in the PHYSICAL (US -- which of ourselves, pose OPPOSITION to GOOD)... DETERIORATING and DISOBEYING the COMMANDS which HE IS... and IN which He abides...

He thereby CONVEYS the ETERNAL knowledge of GOOD and EVIL to each one that experiences it, via the experience of HIS BODY (us) within this FINITE realm of TIME...

Quote from: trettep on July 19, 2009, 10:32:21 PM
Can the child of Satan be also the child of God at the same time? If so, why be RENEWED by the Holy Spirit?

Satan is just the principality of ADVERSITY which was ALSO created by YHVH... and placed within the makeup of MAN... that the CHILDREN of YHVH, which are collectively -- His TEMPLE and BODY... will come to KNOW GOOD and EVIL...

It kind of surprises me that you object to this, for in many instances and in many examples, you have been speaking of this in the "YOU are satan" thread!

The "child" of "satan" is the submission to ADVERSITY against the COMMAND of GOD... NOT born of some mythical "evil" being which is everywhere... rather, it is the NATURAL BEAST that man IS, and DESPARATELY WICKED Heart within man which is CONCLUDED in UNBELIEF ...BY YHVH... that man gains the KNOWLEDGE via this experience of UNBELIEF... )which is SIN, which is part of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil)...

"Renewing" is a process bro... as Paul and John noted, we remain capable of sinning, even after we have entered into a relationship with CHRIST... the WAR which Paul notes continues... for our flesh, now defiled of SIN, wishes to continue in it... AS we submit to the mind of CHRIST within (inward man)... we maintain via HIM, the control and OBEDIENCE over that which proposes ADVERSE DISOBEDIENCE (to be our resultant experience)

As I see it, ...in order for CHRIST to say He will NEVER leave us, or for Him to say that He shall ALWAYS be with us... means that He has ALWAYS been WITH US... And thereby has NEVER left us.

Also -- Rom 8:38-39 -- Paul was PERSUADED that there is NO POWER whatsoever that can SEPARATE us from the LOVE of GOD which is IN CHRIST JESUS... If there is NOTHING that can SEPARATE us from Him, how can we be SEPARATED?

The LOVE of GOD, ...has NEVER been SEPARATE from us at ANY TIME, and has been WITH US all along...

I am not endeavoring to convince you of anything brother P... You are welcome to disagree with what I have said here, and I have no problem with said disagreements... it is just my present observational view -- -- Taking all the pertinent texts (of which I am aware) ...into consideration...

...willieH

The problem with all this willie is that we DIE. In Him is Life. Back to my reflexive statement. That if God is in us then we are in Him. Remember our witness bears witness with His that we are the Children of God. So if position stood then it would mean that also in Him is death. That just isn't so.

Wouldn't you agree that God's Spirit is not the same as OUR Spirit? So if that is the fact then God is not ALL in ALL at this time. For that to happen then our Spirit must be the same as His.

Paul

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