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trettep

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Personal Savior?
« on: July 18, 2009, 10:55:41 PM »
Ever heard someone say you need to except Christ as your "PERSONAL" Savior?  This is a very destructive phrase.  The reason is that He is NOT personal - He is the UNIVERSAL Savior.  But I suppose that having us brainwashed into believing that Jesus Christ is our "Personal Savior" makes it easier to condemn those that don't have "A" savior.  This pits those that have a savior against those that don't have a savior.  So I'm asking that we remove this phrase from our vocabulary such that we don't use it to describe and belittle the office of our Lord. 

I accept Jesus Christ as EVERYONEs savior.  So next time you talk to someone ask them if they accept Jesus Christ as "EVERYONEs SAVIOR".

Paul
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Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2009, 11:11:57 PM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 18, 2009, 10:55:41 PM
Ever heard someone say you need to except Christ as your "PERSONAL" Savior?  This is a very destructive phrase.  The reason is that He is NOT personal - He is the UNIVERSAL Savior.  But I suppose that having us brainwashed into believing that Jesus Christ is our "Personal Savior" makes it easier to condemn those that don't have "A" savior.  This pits those that have a savior against those that don't have a savior.  So I'm asking that we remove this phrase from our vocabulary such that we don't use it to describe and belittle the office of our Lord. 

I accept Jesus Christ as EVERYONEs savior.  So next time you talk to someone ask them if they accept Jesus Christ as "EVERYONEs SAVIOR".

Paul

"Brainwashed" is a good single word describing the state of doctrinal teachings of the various "Christian" churches...  :sigh:

You know Paul... since I came to understand the Salvation of ALL MEN... I have also come to discover that, outside of JESUS CHRIST as Savior... I pretty much DISAGREE with EVERYTHING doctrinally taught in the "Christian" churches...

I mean, they teach many doctrines which are NOT named in Scripture, such as"

"the trinity" -- the "millennium" -- "going to heaven" -- "free will" -- "sinners prayer" -- "personal Savior" -- "accepting CHRIST" -- "hell" -- "eternal separation from God" -- "souls LED to CHRIST" -- "decision for "CHRIST" --  "spiritual Israel" -- the "rapture" -- "fallen angels" -- "satan as a sentient being" --

The list grows the more I study the WORD...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:
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trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2009, 02:49:28 AM »
Quote from: willieH on July 18, 2009, 11:11:57 PM
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Quote from: trettep on July 18, 2009, 10:55:41 PM
Ever heard someone say you need to except Christ as your "PERSONAL" Savior?  This is a very destructive phrase.  The reason is that He is NOT personal - He is the UNIVERSAL Savior.  But I suppose that having us brainwashed into believing that Jesus Christ is our "Personal Savior" makes it easier to condemn those that don't have "A" savior.  This pits those that have a savior against those that don't have a savior.  So I'm asking that we remove this phrase from our vocabulary such that we don't use it to describe and belittle the office of our Lord. 

I accept Jesus Christ as EVERYONEs savior.  So next time you talk to someone ask them if they accept Jesus Christ as "EVERYONEs SAVIOR".

Paul

"Brainwashed" is a good single word describing the state of doctrinal teachings of the various "Christian" churches...  :sigh:

You know Paul... since I came to understand the Salvation of ALL MEN... I have also come to discover that, outside of JESUS CHRIST as Savior... I pretty much DISAGREE with EVERYTHING doctrinally taught in the "Christian" churches...

I mean, they teach many doctrines which are NOT named in Scripture, such as"

"the trinity" -- the "millennium" -- "going to heaven" -- "free will" -- "sinners prayer" -- "personal Savior" -- "accepting CHRIST" -- "hell" -- "eternal separation from God" -- "souls LED to CHRIST" -- "decision for "CHRIST" --  "spiritual Israel" -- the "rapture" -- "fallen angels" -- "satan as a sentient being" --

The list grows the more I study the WORD...  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I hear you Willie.  I just hope more people do and put away those things also. 

Paul
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2009, 05:06:10 AM »
 :cloud9: I hear you too, Willie......blessings...... :girlheart:
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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2009, 05:12:06 AM »
There is a remnant...and to think we'd meet — online!
Praise God.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2009, 05:13:22 AM »
Quote
Ever heard someone say you need to except Christ as your "PERSONAL" Savior?  This is a very destructive phrase

I have to disagree here--this is how I first came to know him, and yes, it was very personal--and it still is.
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Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2009, 05:24:08 AM »
 :cloud9: It's how I met Him too........but He later showed me that He merely honored the faith where I was at, at the time. He was there all along; I just had to acknowledge Him as Lord, ie. the darkness comprehended it not.

My whole 'world' and avenue of ministry changed with stopping telling telling people to 'invite Him in', and rather telling them He was already in residence, was the breath that they took, and how much He loved them, unconditionally.

I saw much more fruit from that approach, and anointing on it. But, we have to be led of the Spirit, and let people have the same grace that was extended to us, when He honored the measure of faith we had. Blessings....
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"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2009, 05:40:43 AM »
Quote from: Cardinal on July 19, 2009, 05:24:08 AM
:cloud9: It's how I met Him too........but He later showed me that He merely honored the faith where I was at, at the time. He was there all along; I just had to acknowledge Him as Lord, ie. the darkness comprehended it not.

My whole 'world' and avenue of ministry changed with stopping telling telling people to 'invite Him in', and rather telling them He was already in residence, was the breath that they took, and how much He loved them, unconditionally.

I saw much more fruit from that approach, and anointing on it. But, we have to be led of the Spirit, and let people have the same grace that was extended to us, when He honored the measure of faith we had. Blessings....

That's great, Cardinal.
That truly blessed me, sis...
love ya,
sparrow
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"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2009, 05:48:53 AM »
It's interesting, I don't even think that way about him now--that is, in residence inside me.   I see him very clearly as a person with whom  I have a relationship.

To invite him in means just to turn to him, talk to him, commune with him, break bread with him.

To the extent that I have changed, one could describe this as becoming more like him--so,in residence in that sense, maybe.

I heard a rabbi talk about an I-thou relationship once, and that is pretty much how I see it.

Yes, I agree he was there all along.  I just couldn't see him.

The word 'accompany' is used in the greek to describe our relationship with him--there are two of us in this--I don't lose myself in him, I find myself, become more of myself.

Anyway, it's personal, and there is only one whom I can trust and rely on.  But, that's my experience of it.

I think he presents to each of us exactly what we need to grow into what we are to become.

I studied other religions for a while, but never found a God in any of them as personal as Jesus.
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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2009, 05:55:15 AM »
I also find myself in Him,
but become LESS of myself.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2009, 06:09:53 AM »
I guess it depends what your 'self' is.

So Paul became less of the person who killed Christians, and more like Christ.

But, I don't think you could find a stronger personality anywhere than Paul.

And, I think you could argue he became every bit the man he was meant to be.
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Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2009, 06:16:10 AM »
Yeah...
I think that we are becoming the people we were always meant to be.
I think sometimes when hearing people talk about you decrease and Christ increases...
That makes sense, but it also can be confusing because people can take it to mean...  :mshock: huh?
I'm disappearing? I'm not going to be me anymore? Then what is the point in having all of these people if we are all just turning into Jesus. Why not just have Jesus and not have any of these other billions of people?

But it's that leaning into Jesus and following HIM, His example, His LOVE, we are becoming what God has always meant for us to be. We are being transformed, not INTO Him, but BECAUSE of Him.

did that make sense?
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"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2009, 06:20:38 AM »
It's becoming less self-conscious —
and more Christ-conscious —
As I decrease so shall He increase.
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Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2009, 06:24:30 AM »
Quote
did that make sense?

Yes.

But, mind you, when Paul talks about us looking into a darkened mirror, I take that literally.  We look in the mirror and can't see the accurate reflection because of a problem with the mirror.

And, then Paul tells us that someday [we will look into a clear mirror] and see him face to face.

Well guess who you see when you look in a mirror? lol

That's right, yourself.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face!



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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2009, 06:29:04 AM »
It's His life in us.
It is into Him, but — it is Sparrow into Him.
 — David into Him,
 — Card into Him,
 — Claypot into Him.
We don't lose our identity, we find it.
In Him!
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2009, 07:01:27 AM »
Call on the name of the Lord and YOU SHALL BE saved.

Believe, confess, repent...Romans 10:14,15 states.. "How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?"

Nah, I believe there are too many scriptures to not believe God's Spirit individually visits each and every person when it's their time to be given faith to believe.  It's called getting saved, and we all must be.  Some now, the rest later.  Only by His grace, nothing we do to earn it.  It's only as suits His purposes and plans as far as timing.

"What must I do to be saved?  Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved" (I Peter 5:7).  The universal part is all will come face to face with Yesu, one time or another; and one way or another, will all bow and confess Him as Lord.  "All" doesn't preclude "each".

« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 07:07:09 AM by jabcat »
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For the [logos-saying-word] word of God [is]alive and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2009, 07:07:02 AM »


I don't think the words "personal saviour" is the problem.   It is the presentation of  "YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT"  and all the assertions that people will make if you do not accept him when they come at you.


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Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2009, 07:08:50 AM »
I like your point Paul.  I too believe it's many things AROUND believing/getting saved that we've goofed up, including all the eternal hell stuff, or that God's not in control or the One that does the calling and choosing, etc.  ...when He says the time is right.   :thumbsup:
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For the [logos-saying-word] word of God [is]alive and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2009, 07:12:55 AM »
Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:08:50 AM
I like your point Paul.  I too believe it's many things AROUND believing/getting saved that we've goofed up, including all the eternal hell stuff, or that God's not in control, the One that does the calling and choosing, etc.  ...when He says the time is right.   :thumbsup:


He is everyones saviour, but there are things unique to my walk that I have a hard time with him not being my personal saviour as well.   

He is an atheists personal saviour they just won't believe it yet.

Dang it, your all saved whether you like it or not.    :laughing7:


It's when we place the means of coming to believe that in the center of man's will that is the problem.

True belief is not convincing yourself, it is the result of an event.





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Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2009, 07:25:31 AM »
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on July 19, 2009, 07:12:55 AM
Quote from: jabcat on July 19, 2009, 07:08:50 AM
I like your point Paul.  I too believe it's many things AROUND believing/getting saved that we've goofed up, including all the eternal hell stuff, or that God's not in control, the One that does the calling and choosing, etc.  ...when He says the time is right.   :thumbsup:


It's when we place the means of coming to believe that in the center of man's will that is the problem.

True belief is not convincing yourself, it is the result of an event.

Amen.  I too believe that.  He chooses, gives the faith to believe.  The following I find to be a quite interesting scripture (and could be confusing if not reconciled with the other verses that show He does the choosing and providing faith)...But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

So even though there are other scriptures to examine that IMO show it's His action and empowerment of any of our actions, I think the verse still shows a unique time of "getting saved".  I just see it as the "order" Apostle Paul talked about, some believe now, the rest later...but still only by His grace and empowerment. 

Looking to Him, the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)

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For the [logos-saying-word] word of God [is]alive and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 07:28:59 AM »
 
Quote
...even to them that believe on his name.

What do you think that means?  And what or who is his 'name'?
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Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2009, 07:34:51 AM »
It may have multiple layers, but in this specific context, I understand it to mean recognizing Him as Savior, being brought by the Holy Spirit to (what's called in "old fashioned" vernacular) knowing Him in a personal, saving way.  Calling on Him, trusting in Him.  Not just a picture on a wall, a story in a book, a good prophet, etc.  Many have a head knowledge but have not as yet had their day of visitation.

I'm a little nervous, did I pass?   :laughing7:  I removed an ealier post in which I felt I may have gotten a little too worked up.  In it I agreed with your post of being personally saved.  What do you think it means?
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For the [logos-saying-word] word of God [is]alive and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2009, 07:36:47 AM »
I believe (no scholar, just the best I know right now) that the closest we have to His actual "given" name is Yesu.  I don't get dogmatic about that though, we have what light has been given us.
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For the [logos-saying-word] word of God [is]alive and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2009, 07:39:24 AM »
I think the main thing is believing and trusting in God's only begotten Son...Jesus, Yesu, Yashua...I really don't think God holds against us that He scattered us and gave us diversity of languages...just because ours may not be the best  :mblush:.
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For the [logos-saying-word] word of God [is]alive and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2009, 07:40:34 AM »
Quote
What do you think it means?

I'm not sure.  That's why I asked. :girlheart:

It's an interesting way the scripture puts it--receive him or even believe on his name--


30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

--Luke 2
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 07:47:09 AM by Molly »
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