Personal Savior?

[Cardinal]

No, there wasn't. What I saw was SPIRIT exploding into still "frames" of time, with the understanding given on what the SPIRIT was doing in those frames. If there was time in the Spirit, it would have been "locked" into the first "frame". Blessings....

Cardinal you are seeing what I am saying. MOVEMENT is sequential. Action is sequential. FLOW is sequential. IF WE, that is OUR time is frozen (and we are unaware) and God is able to MOVE within our time frames and DO things, that is ANOTHER level of time rather than a lack of it.

  If I do Seth, then I'm oblivious to it, at present.  Blessings....

[Seth]

No, there wasn't. What I saw was SPIRIT exploding into still "frames" of time, with the understanding given on what the SPIRIT was doing in those frames. If there was time in the Spirit, it would have been "locked" into the first "frame". Blessings....

Cardinal you are seeing what I am saying. MOVEMENT is sequential. Action is sequential. FLOW is sequential. IF WE, that is OUR time is frozen (and we are unaware) and God is able to MOVE within our time frames and DO things, that is ANOTHER level of time rather than a lack of it.

  If I do Seth, then I'm oblivious to it, at present.  Blessings....

LOL, I don't fault you for that. 

[Cardinal]

Whitewings said, "Think about your exploding cross vision.There was a 'timeflow' into past and future. So....?"

No, there wasn't. What I saw was SPIRIT exploding into still "frames" of time, with the understanding given on what the SPIRIT was doing/accomplishing in and thru those frames. If there was time in the Spirit, it would have been "locked" into the first "frame". Blessings....

I have the impression this won't have any progress in the next 1000 years...
Cardinal, IMO you are jumping to conclusions. Because you are shown frames there can't be time.
It's like saying when the door is closed Jesus can't enter (but He did)
If you have red shoes that doesn't mean you can't have blue shoes also.
I hope the shoe example clears it up 

  There is no time in His SPIRIT; I did not say there was no time here. As Molly quoted in another post, when the mystery of God is finished, He decreed there would be time no more. Why? So that HEAVEN AND EARTH LINE UP. Blessings.....

[trettep]

Whitewings said, "Think about your exploding cross vision.There was a 'timeflow' into past and future. So....?"

No, there wasn't. What I saw was SPIRIT exploding into still "frames" of time, with the understanding given on what the SPIRIT was doing/accomplishing in and thru those frames. If there was time in the Spirit, it would have been "locked" into the first "frame". Blessings....

I have the impression this won't have any progress in the next 1000 years...
Cardinal, IMO you are jumping to conclusions. Because you are shown frames there can't be time.
It's like saying when the door is closed Jesus can't enter (but He did)
If you have red shoes that doesn't mean you can't have blue shoes also.
I hope the shoe example clears it up 

  There is no time in His SPIRIT; I did not say there was no time here. As Molly quoted in another post, when the mystery of God is finished, He decreed there would be time no more. Why? So that HEAVEN AND EARTH LINE UP. Blessings.....

God is timeendlessness and NOT timelessness.

Paul

[Cardinal]

  Hi Paul.....question.......is time endlessness the same as no time? Because if He says NO TIME here, then because heaven and earth must come into agreement, it follows that no time here, is a result of no time there, otherwise there is no agreement. Blessings...

[Seth]

Hi Paul.....question.......is time endlessness the same as no time? Because if He says NO TIME here, then because heaven and earth must come into agreement, it follows that no time here, is a result of no time there, otherwise there is no agreement. Blessings...

Cardinal, did you see how IN THE SAME VERSE, it says that God lives "forever and ever?"

The question is NOT whether there will be time no more. The question is WHAT time is God talking about: The time in which he lives forever and ever, or the time BEFORE the trumpet sounds?

If you think that he is talking about ALL time, then you are not reading the verse close enough and are picking only the words that you like. The time which shall be no more is that which PRECEEDS the days in which the voice of the angel sounds:

Revelation 10:5-7
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time (chronos - a space of time, see below) no longer: 7 But for IN the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Do you see that? Time shall be no longer SAVE FOR IN THE DAYS of the voice of the seventh angel when he shall BEGIN to sound and the mystery of God shall be finished. In other words the time that is being no longer are the days in which the the angel DOES NOT sound. The mystery of God is accomplished IN the DAY, (not outside of day) of the angel. Many other translations understood that:

Revelation 10:5-7 (New International Version)
 5Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay! 7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."

Revelation 10:5-7 (English Standard Version)
And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven 6and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 10:5-7 (New American Standard Bible)
Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land (A)lifted up his right hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, (D)WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer, but IN (ie within) the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

God's finished accomplishment is IN the days of the angel sounding the trumpet. If God lives FOREVER (which means "for unlimited time"), then what "space of time" is being eliminated? The time of delay...BEFORE the trumpet is sounded. The accomplishment of his plan occurs in THE DAY(S) THAT FOLLOWS.

Cardinal, where does the "voice" of that angel sound? What is that "voice?" In the heavenlies right, where God lives forever and ever? Do you think that "voice" stops sounding? Do you think that the mystery of God will ever STOP being completed? The completion of God's mysteries is IN the days which are of the heavenlies, not the earth. If you are a literalist concerning Revelation you might think that the voice is human. The voice is the message and it is within us forever with God. That voice is the knowledge of God's message. That is why "the space of time" before the completion shall be no more BUT IN the days of the voice of the angel the mystery of God will be complete.

chronos
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.


The space of time that is to be no more is that which preceeds the voice of the angel, (the space of time in which the mystery is NOT revealed). Neither Paul (trittep) or I are claiming that SPACES of time do not end. They end all the....time.

[Cardinal]

  Hi Seth.......please don't accuse me of "only picking the words I like". That is demeaning, and at no time have I have said anything of that nature to any of you all, that disagree with me. Thank you.

That said, the 7th trump has already sounded, it too is SPIRIT, and those that hear it will hear it, as the Spirit which is the revelator, chooses. So the time that causes the delay in hearing it, is the decay/death of the carnal mind of man, that continually tries to pull us into the understanding of THIS realm, THIS wisdom, THIS world, and it is that that must be overcome to enter into the provision He has made IN CHRIST, ie.to NOT BE of the understanding of this realm, this wisdom, and this world and into that state of being where time and death are NO MORE.

In other words, it has always been here, but is veiled, and this is why it says NOW is the day of your salvation, and why it says not to stumble as the Israelites did, by NOT ENTERING IN. The now He's talking about is NOT a time, it's the nature of a PERSON, who was, is, and is to come, not the limited concept of a "now" that is time based.

The "days" of the 7th angel (7 means COMPLETE OR PERFECT, and angel means, MESSAGE OR MESSENGER), pertain to the perfect and complete (we are COMPLETE IN HIM) "DAYS" THAT WE ARE BECOMING, ie. no part darkness, like the 7TH DAY in Genesis.

And this is why the mystery of God is FINISHED, IN THOSE "DAYS", when this message is being sounded, because the preceeding death (and time, it's measurement), are no more, having been swallowed up of an ENDLESS LIFE. Blessings....

[Seth]

Cardinal, here do a word study on "chronos" to see how many times it refers to a specific "span of time" rather than to time itself. To say that "chronos" will end is nothing more than saying "spans of time" end.

http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=5550&l=en

[Seth]

Hi Seth.......please don't accuse me of "only picking the words I like". That is demeaning, and at no time have I have said anything of that nature to any of you all, that disagree with me. Thank you.

My bad, I apologize. 

That said, the 7th trump has already sounded, it too is SPIRIT, and those that hear it will hear it, as the Spirit which is the revelator, chooses. So the time that causes the delay in hearing it, is the decay/death of the carnal mind of man, that continually tries to pull us into the understanding of THIS realm, THIS wisdom, THIS world, and it is that that must be overcome to enter into the provision He has made IN CHRIST, to NOT BE of the understanding of this realm, this wisdom, and this world and into that state of being where time and death are NO MORE.

You said: "So the time that causes the delay in hearing it, is the decay/death of the carnal mind of man,"

I agree in the sense that the carnal minds observation of time is what causes delay. God is not delaying because to him, a thousand years is like a day! The endless life is NOT of the span of time that is noted to end. That is a DIFFERENT time than the one that the carnal mind experiences. The endless life (immortality) is what continues AFTER the time of mortality.  The verse is not making a statement about the end of time itself, just the span of time before the completion of the mystery (which itself occurs in the day of the angel's voice). That is the point I am making.

The now He's talking about is NOT a time, it's the nature of a PERSON, who was, is, and is to come, not the limited concept of a "now" that is time based.

I disagree. The "now" Paul is talking about is the day of salvation by which man may RECEIVE (enter into) that Person who was, is, and IS....TO.....COME. The "now" is the continuing availability of the promise to bring salvation from sin, to those who receive the spirit in whatever day they believe and receive it.

Let's distinguish the terms. The SALVATION is recieving the Spirit, the Person you are talking about. The "day" of salvation is of course not a 24 hour period, but the continuance of time since that salvation was made available and is still available within each person's life span.

[Paul Hazelwood]

God is timeendlessness and NOT timelessness.

What about endtimesendlessnessendlessnessendlessness?

[Seth]

God is timeendlessness and NOT timelessness.

What about endtimesendlessnessendlessnessendlessness?

Well now THAT wouldn't make sense would it? 

[trettep]

Hi Paul.....question.......is time endlessness the same as no time? Because if He says NO TIME here, then because heaven and earth must come into agreement, it follows that no time here, is a result of no time there, otherwise there is no agreement. Blessings...

No, timeendlessness means that the time is always there and has no beginning and no end.  Thus God is always creating ANEW.  If it was as some believe that God is in the future at the same time He is in the past then the events that take place would never be created.  They would have always existed.  That means that sin always exist as He exists because there would be NO time at which sin didn't exist.  Thus no VICTORY.

Paul

[Cardinal]

Hi Seth.......please don't accuse me of "only picking the words I like". That is demeaning, and at no time have I have said anything of that nature to any of you all, that disagree with me. Thank you.

My bad, I apologize. 

No problem. Sometimes it's easy to forget in the heat of discussion, that we're ALL friends here. That's what makes this board unique.  

That said, the 7th trump has already sounded, it too is SPIRIT, and those that hear it will hear it, as the Spirit which is the revelator, chooses. So the time that causes the delay in hearing it, is the decay/death of the carnal mind of man, that continually tries to pull us into the understanding of THIS realm, THIS wisdom, THIS world, and it is that that must be overcome to enter into the provision He has made IN CHRIST, to NOT BE of the understanding of this realm, this wisdom, and this world and into that state of being where time and death are NO MORE.

You said: "So the time that causes the delay in hearing it, is the decay/death of the carnal mind of man,"

I agree in the sense that the carnal minds observation of time is what causes delay. God is not delaying because to him, a thousand years is like a day! The endless life is NOT of the span of time that is noted to end. That is a DIFFERENT time than the one that the carnal mind experiences. The endless life (immortality) is what continues AFTER the time of mortality.  The verse is not making a statement about the end of time itself, just the span of time before the completion of the mystery (which itself occurs in the day of the angel's voice). That is the point I am making.

I understand the point you are making. The point I'm trying to make is that that ALL of those days are IN US, as we are progressing to BECOME a day of no part darkness, as is/was/and is to come, the 7th day, which IS Christ.

The now He's talking about is NOT a time, it's the nature of a PERSON, who was, is, and is to come, not the limited concept of a "now" that is time based.

I disagree. The "now" Paul is talking about is the day of salvation by which man may RECEIVE (enter into) that Person who was, is, and IS....TO.....COME. The "now" is the continuing availability of the promise to bring salvation from sin, to those who receive the spirit in whatever day they believe and receive it.

Seth, you ever wonder how our sins are forgiven when we enter into that "day" called "now"? It's because it's like THEY NEVER EVEN HAPPENED. God saying He "remembers" them no more, is not some kind of cool mental gymnastics on His part. But rather, because there is no death nor time in His Spirit, then nothing that is NOT LIKE THAT, can dwell in His Spirit and that includes the spiritual "us" part of the equation.

Let's distinguish the terms. The SALVATION is recieving the Spirit, the Person you are talking about. The "day" of salvation is of course not a 24 hour period, but the continuance of time since that salvation was made available and is still available within each person's life span.

Again, time in this realm has nothing to do with marking THAT day, because that day is no part darkness, the 7th day, which IS Christ. That that day is available testifies to His timeLESSNESS.

Man esteems one "day" above another (respect of persons) but God esteems them alike, ie. looked back from 7th day and said of the 6 that were part darkness, it is good, even very good.

The reason He was doing that is because the He was looking at the light of Christ in each one, ie. not holding our sins against us, looking BACKWARDS (seeing the end from the beginning, which is Christ).

In other words, God was "in Revelation" looking backwards at all the "days" that had come before Him same as when the sons of God came before Him in the end of all flesh in Noah's day.

The ONLY one that can do this is He, from His unique perspective OUTSIDE OF TIME, outside of the darkness/death of flesh that time measures. Blessings....

[Seth]

I understand the point you are making. The point I'm trying to make is that that ALL of those days are IN US, as we are progressing to BECOME a day of no part darkness, as is/was/and is to come, the 7th day, which IS Christ.

Cardinal, if this is true, it is more about what a day SIGNIFIES, rather than what it actually IS. Example: the lambs signified Christ. Both are real. The lambs did not stop becoming real, once the significance was known. What I see you doing is taking the "days" as symbolic. That's fine. But I am not talking about what units of time symbolize. I am not even talking about UNITS of time at all. I am talking about time itself...

Seth, you ever wonder how our sins are forgiven when we enter into that "day" called "now"? It's because it's like THEY NEVER EVEN HAPPENED. God saying He "remembers" them no more, is not some kind of cool mental gymnastics on His part. But rather, because there is no death nor time in His Spirit, then nothing that is NOT LIKE THAT, can dwell in His Spirit and that includes the spiritual "us" part of the equation.

I don't look at salvation as simply the forgiveness of sin, but in the process of a mind change which takes a lifetime. I do not believe that Paul is talking about a "day" that has the name of "now." I believe what Paul is talking about is the present availability of the Spirit in this "day." Day is not simply a 24 hour period. In the Bible the word is used to also describe long periods of time. Today is still the day of salvation. Same with tomorrow.

Again, time in this realm has nothing to do with marking THAT day, because that day is no part darkness, the 7th day, which IS Christ. That that day is available testifies to His timeLESSNESS.

Man esteems one "day" above another (respect of persons) but God esteems them alike, ie. looked back from 7th day and said of the 6 that were part darkness, it is good, even very good.

The reason He was doing that is because the He was looking at the light of Christ in each one, ie. not holding our sins against us, looking BACKWARDS (seeing the end from the beginning, which is Christ).

In other words, God was "in Revelation" looking backwards at all the "days" that had come before Him same as when the sons of God came before Him in the end of all flesh in Noah's day.

The ONLY one that can do this is He, from His unique perspective OUTSIDE OF TIME, outside of the darkness/death of flesh that time measures. Blessings....

We aren't even talking about the same things. You are talking about what UNITS of time symbolize. I am not even talking about units of time at all...

If speaking symbolically about a day, if everyone is in a single day always, that CONFIRMS time rather than deny it. To that day, there would be no end.

[sparrow]

I think this is one of those things where maybe folks are over spiritualizing something and throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because you can draw symbolic/spiritual truths from something, doesn't mean that the thing ceases to exist once you've gotten your truth from it. Or that once this world is over, God will have no more use for it.  Do you know what I mean?  Some things become even MORE glorious and even MORE real, and take on different meanings, values... know what I mean?

I see time as something that will become something MORE, something that it was always supposed to be, perhaps. A higher level of it even, if you will. (perhaps) 
God makes all things new...

Just something to think about...
I've seen that happen with several things...(overspiritualizing)
and I think this "time", it has happened again with the subject of "time".
 

[Molly]

Seth, you ever wonder how our sins are forgiven when we enter into that "day" called "now"? It's because it's like THEY NEVER EVEN HAPPENED. God saying He "remembers" them no more, is not some kind of cool mental gymnastics on His part. But rather, because there is no death nor time in His Spirit, then nothing that is NOT LIKE THAT, can dwell in His Spirit and that includes the spiritual "us" part of the equation.

Is this the fulness of the time?  There is no past and no future because they are both folded into the present, into I AM.  At this point, being in God's timeless present, the past is all good because it has led us to this point, and the future is all good because it will be all God.


Galatians 4:4
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


"fulness"

G4138
πλήρωμα
plērōma
play'-ro-mah
From G4137; repletion or completion, that is, (subjectively) what fills (as contents, supplement, copiousness, multitude), or (objectively) what is filled (as container, performance, period): - which is put in to fill up, piece that filled up, fulfilling, full, fulness.

[Cardinal]

I think this is one of those things where maybe folks are over spiritualizing something and throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because you can draw symbolic/spiritual truths from something, doesn't mean that the thing ceases to exist once you've gotten your truth from it. Or that once this world is over, God will have no more use for it.  Do you know what I mean?  Some things become even MORE glorious and even MORE real, and take on different meanings, values... know what I mean?

I see time as something that will become something MORE, something that it was always supposed to be, perhaps. A higher level of it even, if you will. (perhaps) 
God makes all things new...

Just something to think about...
I've seen that happen with several things...(overspiritualizing)
and I think this "time", it has happened again with the subject of "time".
 

  My  Well, I guess it depends on where you get your strength from. I personally draw strength from the translation of the natural Word into the word that is Spirit, ie. being translated out of the kingdoms of this world, and into the kingdom of light, so for me there is no such thing as "overspiritualizing." To each, his own. Blessings....

[sparrow]

I think this is one of those things where maybe folks are over spiritualizing something and throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because you can draw symbolic/spiritual truths from something, doesn't mean that the thing ceases to exist once you've gotten your truth from it. Or that once this world is over, God will have no more use for it.  Do you know what I mean?  Some things become even MORE glorious and even MORE real, and take on different meanings, values... know what I mean?

I see time as something that will become something MORE, something that it was always supposed to be, perhaps. A higher level of it even, if you will. (perhaps) 
God makes all things new...

Just something to think about...
I've seen that happen with several things...(overspiritualizing)
and I think this "time", it has happened again with the subject of "time".
 

  My  Well, I guess it depends on where you get your strength from. I personally draw strength from the translation of the natural Word into the word that is Spirit, ie. being translated out of the kingdoms of this world, and into the kingdom of light, so for me there is no such thing as "overspiritualizing." To each, his own. Blessings....

I think you totally misunderstood what I just said...

Maybe I'll figure out a way to re-word it...
if so, I'll come back and post..

 

[Seth]

 There is no past and no future because they are both folded into the present, into I AM.  At this point, being in God's timeless present, the past is all good because it has led us to this point, and the future is all good because it will be all God.

Even if that were true, it would never be able to negate that time will always exist as long as consciousness does.

[Molly]

 There is no past and no future because they are both folded into the present, into I AM.  At this point, being in God's timeless present, the past is all good because it has led us to this point, and the future is all good because it will be all God.

Even if that were true, it would never be able to negate that time will always exist as long as consciousness does.

I think time exists as long as people acknowledge it.  God doesn't need time, just like he doesn't need space.

In a place where no one ages, no one gets sick, everyone is happy, no one suffers, there is no war, death, or destruction, and total abundance for everyone, would time have any meaning?

You could say, yeah, we would make an appointment for lunch.  But what if I could just think about you and you were there?

Time is not something that is sitting out there as an absolute.  If consciousness were dependent on time, no one would have post trauatic stress disorder--because that is the brain replaying the past in the present as though it were just happening.

[sparrow]

Cardinal...

What does overspiritualizing things have to do with where someone draws their strength?
I'm not getting why you said that? This is why I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying....


I guess I should ask this first.. you don't think that people ever overspiritualize things?

[Beloved Servant]

Well now Sparrow, I'm happy you brought that up.
What in the world does overspiritualizing mean?

[sparrow]

In a place where no one ages, no one gets sick, everyone is happy, no one suffers, there is no war, death, or destruction, and total abundance for everyone, would time have any meaning?

Sure! Why not?! I think it would have far MORE meaning, actually.
Time will no longer be an enemy in our minds.
Just because we'll have all the time in the world, doesn't mean that time has to cease to exist.
In this world time is our enemy because we are in the process of decay/death.
Time HIGHLIGHTS this death.
Whereas, I can see... in the next world, Time HIGHLIGHTING Life!!!
Think about that... You might be surprised at the joyous picture that brings to mind.

[sparrow]

Well now Sparrow, I'm happy you brought that up.
What in the world does overspiritualizing mean?

Well what I mean when I say "over spiritualize" is this...
There are those out there who think so much on the spiritual implications/truths etc. of something that they discard things that perhaps should not be discarded. One example is
someone who "over" spiritualizes who we are, into being nothing but a misty vapor that we will basically melt into God. (like, LITERALLY melt into Him and we will be no more..).
That, to me, is OVER spiritualizing. That's taking "God will be ALL in ALL" one step TOO far...
Folks do it all the time. We don't have to dissapear INTO God and be NO MORE for God to be ALL in ALL. That's just one example of what I call "over" spiritualizing. They take a concept that is spiritual in nature... but take it one step too far.

Do you understand what I mean? It's hard to put into words I guess.
(If I'm not making sense, let me know... I'll try to word it differently.)

[Seth]

oops