Author Topic: Personal Savior?  (Read 27420 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #300 on: July 28, 2009, 10:55:47 PM »
owlam...perpetuity or always
Or long duration, lifetime.

Jewish scholars explain it as: concealed, over the horizon.
Basicly meaning a period of time we don't know the end of.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #301 on: July 28, 2009, 10:58:03 PM »
Here's a man who seems to be standing both inside and outside time:




2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

 3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

 4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.


--Heb 7



..abideth a priest..

"continually"

eis diēnekes


G1519
εἰς

"eis"

to, into, until, towards



G1336
διηνεκές
diēnekes
dee-ah-nek-es'
Neuter of a compound of G1223 and a derivative of an alternate of G5342; carried through, that is, (adverb with G1519 and G3588 prefixed) perpetually: - +continually, for ever.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #302 on: July 28, 2009, 11:02:28 PM »
owlam...perpetuity or always

  you failed to mention Eccl as I showed it relates to time and

the  TOKOGAE, did you not see the correlation? Or did you

 dismiss it entirely on  eternity in our hearts not meaning actual

 eternity?

I dismissed it because it was based on a false concept of "olam"

Perpetuity is that which lasts forever. Timelessness is a lack of awareness of perpetuity.


Quote
you see, what I perceive in your reasoning is the taking of the

 good from the tokogae and extending that into the eternal

Then, you perceive incorrectly. You need to be open to the idea that your perceptions are not perfect. And therefore, maybe you should be a little more inquisitive so that you don't make the mistakes that you are making, leading to mocking visions of clocks.



   
Quote
That is the reason I expound  on TOL as timelessness,

  for it is centered on the eternal one without beginning or end

You expound on the TOL as timelessness because you seem to think that time is nothing more than units of measure. Time is nothing more than the awareness of continuance.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #303 on: July 28, 2009, 11:05:37 PM »
OK SETH

   WHEN WE GO INTO THAT HOLY CITY,I WILL BE MORE THAN

 HAPPY FOR YOU TO TELL ME WHAT TIME IT IS.

  HOW YOU WILL DO THAT WITHOUT SUN OR MOON IN IT

   I  WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.


   MAYBE THERE'S A BIG CLOCK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE CITY?

  THAT COUNTS TIME FROM GOD'S BEGINNING TO END

   HUH?


   HOW MANY DAYS,HOURS,WEEKS ARE IN ETERNITY?

   MAYBE WE'LL COUNT IN EAONS?

   WHAT KIND OF NUMBERS WILL THEY BE,ZILLIONS?


   THERE WAS A REASON SATAN HAD DAVID TO NUMBER ISRAEL

  IN OPPOSITION TO THE LORD.

  AND THERE IS A REASON FOR THE GREAT CROWD WHICH NO

   MAN CAN COUNT.


   THAT LAST ENEMY IS DEATH

   THE EARTH WEARS OUT LIKE A GARMENT


    JOSHUA 10


     O'SUN STAND STILL OVER GIBEON,O MOON ,OVER THE

    VALLEY OF AIJALON.

   SO THE SUN STOOD STILL AND THE MOON STOPPED,

   TIL THE NATION AVENGED ITSELF ON IT'S ENEMIES



It will be the 8th day.  The time that God chose.

Paul

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #304 on: July 28, 2009, 11:12:43 PM »
...abideth a priest forever.

--Heb 7


I'll take it.  That's timeless enough for me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #305 on: July 28, 2009, 11:13:59 PM »

"Time is nothing more than the awareness of continuance."

OIC,
Seth, you're not using Websters dictionary to define the word time. (?)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 11:20:31 PM by Beloved Servant »

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #306 on: July 28, 2009, 11:25:00 PM »
Seth, walk around a circle and when you get to the end, get back to me.

The second circumcision is eternal.

9And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day.

--Josh 5


"Gilgal"


H1536
גּלגּל
gilgâl
ghil-gawl'
A variation of H1534: - wheel.



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #307 on: July 28, 2009, 11:28:12 PM »
Merriam-Webster definition of time. Won't help much I fear....
Quote
Etymology:Middle English time, tyme, from Old English t*ma, t*ma; akin to Old Norse t*mi time, Old English t*d time * more at TIDE

1 a : a period during which something (as an action, process, or condition) exists or continues : an interval comprising a limited and continuous action, condition, or state of being : measured or measurable duration *no one had spoken to him all the time we were at lunch— Ernest Hemingway* *could not sleep, and after a time he rose— Louis Bromfield* *gone a long time* *written in three hours' time*  b : a period set apart in some specified or implied way from others *a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance— Eccles 3:4 (Authorized Version)*

TIDE
Quote
Etymology:Middle English tyde, tide time, from Old English t*d; akin to Old Frisian & Old Saxon t*d time, Old High German z*t, Old Norse t*thr time, Greek daiesthai to distribute, divide, Sanskrit dayate he apportions, d*ti he cuts, divides, mows; basic meaning: to divide

1 a obsolete   : a space of time : WHILE, PERIOD  b archaic   : a particular point in time : a definite moment : OCCASION  c : fit or opportune time : OPPORTUNITY  d (1) : an ecclesiastical anniversary or religious festival (2) : HOLIDAY;  also   : a holiday season as distinguished from the specific day on which the holiday is celebrated (3) Britain   : a fair or merrymaking on a parish feast day  e : a space of time (as between two high tides or during the height of a flood tide) at sea when the water level permits a particular activity to be carried out
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #308 on: July 28, 2009, 11:42:19 PM »
time
1 a: the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues :
1b: a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future.

Forever
1 : for a limitless time

measure
c: an estimate of what is to be expected (as of a person or situation)

------

The nonspatial continuum (in which our condition of life with God continues) we measure to be "forever" or "always" or "perpetually." We are able to to measure our situation only because WE ARE AWARE of moments that flow one after the other regarding the continuance of God and his Life.

So if we are adhering only to Webster, one cannot say that God will exist "forever." However, dictionaries vary....But the ones I have checked so far seem to agree that time is simply the measuring, the expectation, the ascertaining, of moments that follow moments.






« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 11:51:48 PM by Seth »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #309 on: July 28, 2009, 11:43:17 PM »
Seth, walk around a circle and when you get to the end, get back to me.


Ok, but in order to do that, I'll need to put one foot in front of the other.

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #310 on: July 28, 2009, 11:47:32 PM »
Time is measurable, therefore it has a limit.  If time is endless, that is no longer time, that is eternity.  Now you could say that eternity is infinite time, but infinite time has no meaning really because it has no limit, therefore, it is no longer, strictly speaking, time.

Standing inside of time, it looks like a straight line.

Standing outside of time, it looks like a circle--see the symbol for infinity.  That is how he is able to know the end from the beginning and so forth.  Eternity is more like standing outside time and seeing it folding back on itself.

The heavens will be rolled up like a scroll

--Isa 34
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 11:59:49 PM by Molly »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #311 on: July 29, 2009, 12:00:52 AM »
Time is measurable, therefore it has a limit.  If time is endless, that is no longer time, that is eternity.  Now you could say that eternity is infinite time, but infinite time has no meaning really because it has no limit, therefore, it is no longer, strictly speaking, time.


Measurement is simply an estimate of something. An estimate is this: to determine roughly the size, extent, or nature of

If I estimate the Life of God to be of an infinate extent or nature, that does not mean I have limited him simply by estimating his nature.
That something can be estimated or measured, or sized up, does not mean it is made to be limited. To wit: Forever is defined as limitless time.

It goes back to what I was saying about animation. NOW moments are like frozen pictures. The mind ascertains, or measures each moment as it passes, remembering the frame that went before. The mind determines the nature of progress per frame according memory, and the illusion of motion is created.

That is how I see time work: it is the mind's ability to measure each moment, as existence progresses, as being in a flow from moment to moment. The perpetual NOW, would be a perpetual freeze-frame.




« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 12:05:11 AM by Seth »

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #312 on: July 29, 2009, 12:04:39 AM »
Time is measurable, therefore it has a limit.  If time is endless, that is no longer time, that is eternity.  Now you could say that eternity is infinite time, but infinite time has no meaning really because it has no limit, therefore, it is no longer, strictly speaking, time.


Measurement is simply an estimate of something. An estimate is this: to determine roughly the size, extent, or nature of

If I estimate the Life of God to be of an infinate extent or nature, that does not mean I have limited him simply by estimating his nature.
That something can be estimated or measured, or sized up, does not mean it is made to be limited. To wit: Forever is defined as limitless time.



well, yes, it does limit him, really.  Which is why he gives his name as I AM.  He is always NOW, whether past, present, or future.  That is something outside of time and acting on it or observing it.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #313 on: July 29, 2009, 12:05:55 AM »
Time is measurable, therefore it has a limit.  If time is endless, that is no longer time, that is eternity.  Now you could say that eternity is infinite time, but infinite time has no meaning really because it has no limit, therefore, it is no longer, strictly speaking, time.


Measurement is simply an estimate of something. An estimate is this: to determine roughly the size, extent, or nature of

If I estimate the Life of God to be of an infinate extent or nature, that does not mean I have limited him simply by estimating his nature.
That something can be estimated or measured, or sized up, does not mean it is made to be limited. To wit: Forever is defined as limitless time.



well, yes, it does limit him, really.  Which is why he gives his name as I AM.  He is always NOW, whether past, present, or future.  That is something outside of time and acting on it.

You just measured him as being now, whether past present or future.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #314 on: July 29, 2009, 12:11:03 AM »
Molly, a measurement is an estimate of what is to be expected. Do you think God will exist forever?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #315 on: July 29, 2009, 12:12:48 AM »
"You just measured him as being now, whether past present or future. "
How do you measure (define): Now?

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #316 on: July 29, 2009, 12:13:44 AM »
No I didn't measure him--He has presented himself to us as I AM as a memorial.  If you need to place him in time, he is always in the present.  If you are always in the present, you are not really in time, at all.  He is not bounded by time.  If you are not bounded by time, you are not in time.

We can do this, too, by the way.  We can sit still and observe our past, present, and future--in the NOW.  That is how people create, like God.  Bringing something new into time.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 12:16:52 AM by Molly »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #317 on: July 29, 2009, 12:22:39 AM »
Quote
If you are not bounded by time, you are not in time.

Yes Molly, you interpreted the scripture to measured him to be now, whether past present or future. Time is factored into your understanding.

Time does not restrain. Time is a nonspatial continuum which is measured according to events which succeed one another. Measurement is related to thought. It is an ascertaining of the nature of something else. That confines nothing. God is not BOUND by time, but that his consciousness raises time to higher levels than we can understand.

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #318 on: July 29, 2009, 12:28:49 AM »
"You just measured him as being now, whether past present or future. "
How do you measure (define): Now?

"Now" is the present moment. I characterize it as a frozen photo wherein no action occurs of itself. The collection of now moments happening in succession is what we see as time moving. But time is the ascertaining of the nature of those zillions of frozen moments happening in succession.

Offline Molly

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #319 on: July 29, 2009, 12:30:09 AM »
Quote from: Seth
It goes back to what I was saying about animation. NOW moments are like frozen pictures. The mind ascertains, or measures each moment as it passes, remembering the frame that went before. The mind determines the nature of progress per frame according memory, and the illusion of motion is created.

That is how I see time work: it is the mind's ability to measure each moment, as existence progresses, as being in a flow from moment to moment. The perpetual NOW, would be a perpetual freeze-frame.

I think you are mixing up the illusion with the reality.  You say yourself, you get an illusion of movement when you flip the frames quickly.  Whereas, there is no real movement, just an illusion.

That is what our concept of time is like--it's an illusion based on a perceived motion.  

But he is always in the present--even when in what we call the past or future.  The only reality is NOW.

You are trying to call that a frozen frame, well, ok, but it's not frozen--He is the living God.

Notice how he puts 'which is' first--

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

--Rev 1



Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #320 on: July 29, 2009, 12:31:34 AM »
Someone gave me this parable:

        Now let's suppose that you make your way up to the top of a three-story building.  You perch yourself there on the edge of the roof and you have another view of the parade.  In that instant past and future pass away, because now you see the whole thing at once!  You see the float that is down in front of the chair you were sitting in.  But you also see all the floats that already passed by and all of those still coming up the street.  You see the whole parade at the same time, and there is no past or present — the entire parade is in YOUR NOW!  If you get high enough you see it all at once and the whole parade, from beginning to end, and before the beginning, and after  the end — is all NOW!  This is where we touch God.  This is where we meet eternity.  This is where we discover the mystery of immortality.  This is the great mystery of life and reality.  This is where we converge with the Eternal Day of God.  The past and the future are the present for the Lord.  In the high realm of the Spirit there is only now.  When you get high enough  there is no past or future, everything that ever happened or ever shall happen is in God's Eternal Now.  If you are sitting on your little chair in front of the hardware store, that will blow your mind.  But the LORD SAYS, "I AM that I AM."  God IS, and He changes not.  God dwells in that light that no (carnal) man can approach unto.  He lives in His Eternal Day, the Day of the Lord.

 

Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #321 on: July 29, 2009, 12:33:36 AM »
  Time passes...and we know what happens to that which is

  passing away. So, either God must pass away in time..

  or time must pass away in GOD...

   and it is the latter..

   either God is eternal or time is eternal

  Can God outlast time? He has, He is   He shall

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #322 on: July 29, 2009, 12:36:24 AM »

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #323 on: July 29, 2009, 12:44:58 AM »
Quote
I think you are mixing up the illusion with the reality.  You say yourself, you get an illusion of movement when you flip the frames quickly.  Whereas, there is no real movement, just an illusion.

That is what our concept of time is like--it's an illusion based on a perceived motion.  

Me too. The perception of motion is according to how the mind percieves the succession of EVENTS that occur in the now.

If, in the heavenlies, you smile at me, and I smile back, those collective moments are successions of now moments. The alternitve is being frozen in the now, where nothing is able to occur, because nothing is able to be sequential. You are ASSUMING that nothing sequential can happen in the heavenlies.


Quote
But he is always in the present--even when in what we call the past or future.  The only reality is NOW.

EXACTLY! I have said that myself. The only reality is now. The past is just memory, but is "now" is the reality.



Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #324 on: July 29, 2009, 12:47:42 AM »
 Time passes...and we know what happens to that which is

Time does not pass. EVENTS pass. Each infinitesimal moment is what passes. Time is the non-spatial continuum in which moments are measured by the mind to pass, which is what makes process and progress understood.

 
Quote
So, either God must pass away in time..

  or time must pass away in GOD...

False dilemma



Quote
either God is eternal or time is eternal

False dilemma.


  
Quote
Can God outlast time? He has, He is   He shall

The act of outlasting is based ON time. It means to last LONGER than...


« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 01:01:02 AM by Seth »