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Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2009, 07:10:03 PM »
hmm. ok that makes sense.
but why do we have to give up the idea of "time"?
I mean if that is basically what time is... (the NOW, but the memory of the past and anticipation of the future as in listening to music.)

why can't there still be time?
I get the "now" thing..
but what is this urge to destroy the idea of time?
ok, well maybe there isn't an urge to destroy... but hopefull you all know what I mean.

time is only a negative thing HERE on earth because DECAY happens with the passage of time.

 



Right. The concept of time does not need to be destroyed simply because decay happens as new "now" moments occur. Decay is simply the decomposition of matter. That will not always be, however, I see no reason to believe that progression itself will be removed.

Plato in his work Timaeus said that "time is the moving image of eternity." His philosophy, I believe, is that eternity does not move, but "time" does. That is where Christianity gets its concepts of eternity as timeless as opposed to time itself. It's Hellenistic philosophy posing as Biblical doctrine. The Bible is silent on it as far as I can see. Even the "I AM" is noted as being BEFORE Abraham was, so I see no reason to eliminate the concept of a progression even if the manifestation of it is happening in a succession of NOWs.

Time is nothing more than an illusion of a line of events. Memory is what makes us think anything is IN the PAST, where in a practical sense the events that happened really aren't anywhere anymore accept in memory.



Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2009, 07:14:02 PM »
hmm. ok that makes sense.
but why do we have to give up the idea of "time"?
I mean if that is basically what time is... (the NOW, but the memory of the past and anticipation of the future as in listening to music.)

why can't there still be time?
I get the "now" thing..
but what is this urge to destroy the idea of time?
ok, well maybe there isn't an urge to destroy... but hopefull you all know what I mean.

time is only a negative thing HERE on earth because DECAY happens with the passage of time.

 



Right. The concept of time does not need to be destroyed simply because decay happens as new "now" moments occur. Decay is simply the decomposition of matter. That will not always be, however, I see no reason to believe that progression itself will be removed.

Plato in his work Timaeus said that "time is the moving image of eternity." His philosophy, I believe, is that eternity does not move, but "time" does. That is where Christianity gets its concepts of eternity as timeless as opposed to time itself. It's Hellenistic philosophy posing as Biblical doctrine. The Bible is silent on it as far as I can see. Even the "I AM" is noted as being BEFORE Abraham was, so I see no reason to eliminate the concept of a progression even if the manifestation of it is happening in a succession of NOWs.

Time is nothing more than an illusion of a line of events. Memory is what makes us think anything is IN the PAST, where in a practical sense the events that happened really aren't anywhere anymore accept in memory.




Yes!

Awesome...I think we are on the same page.

"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2009, 09:12:00 PM »
 :cloud9: Hi Seth.......I think I see what you are trying to convey. Two things I want to share, that I've shared before on here a long while back.

First; I heard on the news a few years back that scientists had created some sort of hearing device that enabled them to hear sounds so much better than ever before. They listened to the legs of crickets, which we hear as an annoying sound, sometimes, lol. They were shocked to find that at the frequency they were now able to hear it, that it actually sounded like the finest symphony playing.

As soon as I heard this, the Lord spoke to me, "Let everything that has breath (His Spirit) praise the Lord." It was given me to understand that if we could only hear it, ALL of creation which was made and is inhabited by His Spirit, has this same "symphony" playing in it at all times.

Now it is continuous, never ending, as is His Spirit, and this is the "symphony" that many NDE'S experience (including my uncle and grandmother who died and came back) while "on the other side". This music has no beginning and no end, because it is not music as we know music, but is a NATURE, and that nature is the NOW of the Spirit,which has no past and no future, but simply IS.

Second; I had a vision once in which I saw Him on the cross and there was like an explosion in my spirit for lack of a better word, and this explosion was a near instantaneous revelation of EVERY SCENE in the Word faster than the human mind can grasp. What I saw with the eye of the Spirit, was scenes going to my left of field of vision from the cross, as scenes in the OT. What I saw to my right, was scenes out of the NT. They both "exploded" out of that cross scene in opposite directions all at once.

What was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.

This is nearly impossible for us to wrap our minds around (and for me still, and I saw it), but when He said it is finished, He wasn't speaking about what was going on in time right there, but rather bearing witness to what had ALREADY HAPPENED. I hope this makes sense; it is so hard to express certain things and this is on the top of my list of nearly impossible, LOL. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2009, 09:31:32 PM »
willieH: Hi sister R!  :mwink:

I had a vision once in which I saw Him on the cross and there was like an explosion in my spirit for lack of a better word, and this explosion was a near instantaneous revelation of EVERY SCENE in the Word faster than the human mind can grasp. What I saw with the eye of the Spirit, was scenes going to my left of field of vision from the cross, as scenes in the OT. What I saw to my right, was scenes out of the NT. They both "exploded" out of that cross scene in opposite directions all at once.

I have had the very same revelation Rebecca... In this moment, the Lord noted to me that the thief on one side was man in the natural, unconverted, in the presence of God but unable to SEE his Savior and Salvation... (OT) ...and the thief on the other side was man in the spirit, converted and in the presence of God, able to SEE his Savior and Salvation (NT)

What was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.


Again... this is like reading my own experience... NOW does not need TIME, ...time needs NOW...  Actally TIME doesn't really exist as we think it to, for the moment either anticipated is yet to be, or noted by experience is past... BOTH are/were in NOW...

When time is removed, we will all LIVE in the MOMENT and behold it, NOW... it will not be elusively gone in a wink of an eye, as the "clock ticks" but remain joy, everlasting...

:Peace: Sis...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2009, 09:34:40 PM »
Quote
This music has no beginning and no end, because it is not music as we know music, but is a NATURE, and that nature is the NOW of the Spirit,which has no past and no future, but simply IS.

Cardinal, something having no beginning and no end does not mean NO progression, you see? All music, even here on earth happens now. Yet there is STILL a PROGRESSION from note to note, chord to chord, by which we call it music. That is what music IS. Nothing actually HAPPENS in the past. Anything that happens, even on earth here as we speak only happens NOW. Do we agree on that?

What I am saying is that we don't need to WAIT until we "enter eternity" for the past to be meaningless. It's meaningless now. There IS no past. There IS no future, only what what is reckoned to have happened, and only what was reckoned to have been done. But once something happens in the "now" it's gone.

Time does not move. Nothing exists IN the past. We don't wait to enter eternity for that to be true.



Quote
What was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.

But where is this in the Bible?

Where in our scripture does it say all things happened at once? God says he calls things which ARE NOT, as though they BE. That means he talks as if something already happened, when it didn't. The EXCEPTION to that rule, among Christians, is that such is true only "in time," but not "in eternity?" Where is that teaching expressed in the Bible that NEGATES the words which express some things as being NOT? There has to be more to verify it than our own philosophies. Where is the teaching in the Bible that explicitly contrasts "time" with "timelessness"?

In God's word some things are NOT. That is explicit. The contradiction to that, is that the things which God calls as being NOT, indeed ARE because of the whole time/timelessness philosophy. Where is written, this contrast between time and timelessness?

Until something happens, it is not. And after it happens, it only "happens" in memory or record, in which case it isn't happening at all.

 

Quote
This is nearly impossible for us to wrap our minds around (and for me still, and I saw it), but when He said it is finished, He wasn't speaking about what was going on in time right there, but rather bearing witness to what had ALREADY HAPPENED.

But where does the Bible attest to this in contrast to what God claims to be NOT? If God says somethings are NOT, I have to believe that. If I believe otherwise, I have to have a good reason. For God to say "this is NOT," and for me to claim to the contrary, "this IS" I have to see it in the scripture. Right now, I see NOTHING in the scripture which contrasts "time" with "timelessness" just personal philosophies.

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2009, 11:08:29 PM »
God never gave us an experience that exits in timelessness.  The Apostles and our Lord have never introduced such an idea.  The idea of timelessness is unscriptural. 

Remember if there is no TIME then God cannot be longsuffering.

Paul

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2009, 11:24:57 PM »
willieH: Hi Seth... :hithere:

A few thoughts...  :reachout:

Quote from: Cardinal
This music has no beginning and no end, because it is not music as we know music, but is a NATURE, and that nature is the NOW of the Spirit,which has no past and no future, but simply IS.

Cardinal, something having no beginning and no end does not mean NO progression, you see? All music, even here on earth happens now. Yet there is STILL a PROGRESSION from note to note, chord to chord, by which we call it music. That is what music IS. Nothing actually HAPPENS in the past. Anything that happens, even on earth here as we speak only happens NOW. Do we agree on that?

I completely agree with this thinking, Seth... NOW is all we have... TIME is the tool of the decay/corruption of "NOW" while it is "manifest" within the finite realm in which we find ourselves.

I agree that there must be "progression" in Eternity otherwise everything would be "frozen" -- without activity, ...but that progression is not due to TIME elapsing... it is due to the revelation of JESUS CHRIST which is the WORD which is in an ETERNAL expression -- expressing LIFE...  Just as WE do not speak ALL of our WORDS at once, does not keep them from BEING.  It is the expression of our words that notes PROGRESSION... and TIME did not dictate their BEING, it just enabled their "progression" within the FINITE, while we are in its FINITE realm...

In the ETERNAL, ..."progression" is on another basis, that being the continuing revelation of JESUS CHRIST which IS LIFE -- John 14:6 -- and which emerges from YHVH...

IOW -- "eternal LIFE" is that which emerges from YHVH... for man shall not LIVE by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that "proceedeth" [progresses] out of the MOUTH of GOD -- Matt 4:4 - Deut 8:3

It is the WORD of GOD "proceeding" from a "mouth" which has no beginning or end" that LIFE emerges and is sustained... NO "TIME" is necessary...

That we are not able to BEHOLD (i.e. comprehend the "no beginning/no end") Eternity, is grounds for it to lapse from the endeavor to explain its parameters, one of which is HOW the ETERNAL might "proceed" or "progress" WITHOUT the presence of TIME... 

How can something BE (liv-ing) without progression? 

Well... TIME is a created entity, and IT "proceeded" from an ETERNAL LIV-ING source -- WITHOUT IT...  for [without time existing] -- GOD SPOKE (which is a progression) and the Creation PROCEEDED FORTH, from His WORDS...   :dontknow:

So, HOW might we explain HOW it "CAME FORTH" when NO TIME existed for the "progression" to take place?   

It is obvious to me that PROGRESSION indeed is involved in the ETERNAL, but that "progression" is NOT SUBJECT to the entity of TIME, only to NOW... and to its SOURCE -- YHVH God! 

And as well, it is also obvious that (infinite) ETERNAL "PROGRESSION" which is done without TIME, ...is beyond those of us within the FINITE (realm of time) ,to grasp.

What I am saying is that we don't need to WAIT until we "enter eternity" for the past to be meaningless. It's meaningless now. There IS no past. There IS no future, only what what is reckoned to have happened, and only what was reckoned to have been done. But once something happens in the "now" it's gone.

Time does not move. Nothing exists IN the past. We don't wait to enter eternity for that to be true.

 :iagree:

Quote from: Cardinal
What was given to me to understand was this was the Lamb slain from the foundation, and all those things that had the cross as their origination point, were EXPRESSED in time, but originated in the Spirit, in which there IS NO TIME. And as such, in the Spirit, ALL HAPPENED AT ONCE IN THAT INSTANT.

But where is this in the Bible?

Where in our scripture does it say all things happened at once? God says he calls things which ARE NOT, as though they BE. That means he talks as if something already happened, when it didn't. The EXCEPTION to that rule, among Christians, is that such is true only "in time," but not "in eternity?" Where is that teaching expressed in the Bible that NEGATES the words which express some things as being NOT? There has to be more to verify it than our own philosophies. Where is the teaching in the Bible that explicitly contrasts "time" with "timelessness"?

It was said by someone here recently that all this scenario (time) is, ...is a "downloading" of sorts by GOD to His BODY/Temple, the knowledge of G & E... that is entirely possible for NOTHING is IMPOSSIBLE with God.

That the domain of GOD existed without beginning or end, is the concept of TIMELESSNESS, for TIME has both of these properties... That it is not stated in a "set of words" which says that TIME is an OPPOSITION of ETERNITY, does not preclude that it is.  TIME is an INCOMPLETE commodity for it is YET progressing and noting its HISTORY.

Paul noted:  1 Cor 13:9 -- For we know IN PART and we prophesy IN PART, but when that which is PERFECT [COMPLETE/Eternal] is COME, then that which is IN PART [incomplete/time] shall be:  DONE AWAY...

TIME is definitely an "in part" or "part by part" scenario...  :dontknow:  ...INCOMPLETE, having yet to COMPLETELY "run its course" (which course had a beginning and shall have an end)... which is destined to find its end in the COMPLETE and TIMELESS entity called ETERNITY, from which it emerged... (my  :2c:)

Many things are not stated in the WORD in a "statement" that SAYS in the words which WE might "say it" but are still "SAID"...  they are CONCEALED, and it is:  Pro 25:2 ...the "honor of kings to SEARCH OUT a MATTER" -- One of those "matters" is that which is being discussed at this time...  :thumbsup:

That both JESUS and YHVH stated themselves in terms OTHER than those within time is the notation that THEIR domain is other than TIME and is not subject to it -- YHVH stated "I AM that I AM" (not was or will be)... JESUS stated: BEFORE Abraham WAS [time notation]... I AM [eternal notation]...

In God's word some things are NOT. That is explicit. The contradiction to that, is that the things which God calls as being NOT, indeed ARE because of the whole time/timelessness philosophy. Where is written, this contrast between time and timelessness?

As far as my view of this, it has already be noted...

Until something happens, it is not. And after it happens, it only "happens" in memory or record, in which case it isn't happening at all.


This is only true of the INCOMPLETE entity of TIME... as far as the entity of the ETERNAL... there is NO BEGINNING or END to the things which are about their existance IN IT...  When TIME is COMPLETE it's experience is FOREVER part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD ...and... His Children (us - His Body and Temple)

Quote from: Cardinal
This is nearly impossible for us to wrap our minds around (and for me still, and I saw it), but when He said it is finished, He wasn't speaking about what was going on in time right there, but rather bearing witness to what had ALREADY HAPPENED.

But where does the Bible attest to this in contrast to what God claims to be NOT? If God says somethings are NOT, I have to believe that. If I believe otherwise, I have to have a good reason. For God to say "this is NOT," and for me to claim to the contrary, "this IS" I have to see it in the scripture. Right now, I see NOTHING in the scripture which contrasts "time" with "timelessness" just personal philosophies.

If you analyze the statement Seth... GOD calls things that "are not" as though they "were" is a notation of HIS ETERNAL observation of THE TOTALITY of TIME... HE is enabled to note TIME completely, for He is INFINITE and the Creator OF IT... So as far as HE is concerned, He does not "wait" for TIME to unfold as do we... HE has ALWAYS observed it in its COMPLETED state... END from Beginning...  :dontknow:

GOD is saying that "the things that are NOT" [for us], (ARE) "as if they WERE" -- [for Him]...

TIME shall continue to unfold FOR FINITES (us)...

TIME IS (and always was) a "done deal" for the INFINITE... For "progression" in the ETERNAL does not require TIME in order to BE...

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2009, 11:34:12 PM »
God never gave us an experience that exits in timelessness.  The Apostles and our Lord have never introduced such an idea.  The idea of timelessness is unscriptural. 

Remember if there is no TIME then God cannot be longsuffering.

Paul

If you think in 4 dimentions.
http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/the_10_dimensions_of_reality
http://thetendimensions.wikispaces.com/The+10th+Dimension
Clink on the navigation links on the left for all 10 dimentions.
Read it if you want. I can't explain it better than the article.

I'll pick out one line:
Quote
So the 10th Dimension is all possible outcomes for all possible universes in all possible times, ever. So all possibilities are contained within the 10th Dimension, making it the start and end of everything.
Alpha and Omega?
A not so accurate summary: There can be a now/is and a time flow at the same time.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2009, 11:50:10 PM »
 time passes or progresses in eternity,but it is not 'counted'

  as it means 'nothing' in the realm of eternity.

  the creation in no way can procede ahead of the creator

   He is the creator of 'time' and He declares in Rev 10;6

   ...time shall be no more

  another thing..the existence of the moon and stars were to

 serve as to signs and symbols of 'time'

   In the eternal city there is no light of  a sun or a moon or

 lamp in it...but God and Jesus are the light of it.

  another analogy.... think of the vastness of time and space

  in the celestial heavens...how long it takes to reach even the

 nearest star to earth[relevance/time]

  now think of HIM THAT DWELLS IN UNAPPROACHABLE LIGHT

  and you will see that 'time' has no place in relation to

  us  dwelling with Him eternally.

   time is in relation to our temporal dwelling only

  when time ceases His work of perfecting His creation is

  complete...it is the true Sabbath or rest..for He is finished

  and His work is complete[creation eternally  perfected]

    when the creator rests the creation rests.

   Now, HE already has many wonderful things stored up for His

 children..they are already prepared for us when we enter

the eternal realm. These things prepared for us are not like

 the temporal that we dwell in "in time" the earth will no longer

 wear out like a garment ...everything prepared for us is eternal.

   It is what He has provided for us as His family, and He is

  the great provider. All the things stored up is for our eternal

life and is without end, will not wear out,dissolve or fade away.

    He has made provisons to sustain us eternally so

 we may always be with HIM.

    Longsuffering is required because it requires pateince to

  perfect His creation...and He has long awaited and looked for

the completion of it all. You must realize that the whole

perfected creation eagerly awaits His perfecting of it,and He

 eagerly anticipates it's completion.


  It is HIS CROWNING GLORY AND HE WILL RECEIVE ETERNAL

  PRAISE AND GLORY FOR THE WORK OF HIS HANDS!!


    You may liken it to a man carving a farm out of the wilderness..and all the work that goes into it, the building of
 barns,bins,and his house..The taking of His wife and the bearing and raising of children.

  .but there is just one thing different about it...first He had to create the heavens and the earth and the land and the sea and the trees and the beasts and the wife and the children..

   and the only think He had to create them out of was HIMSELF

   FOR HE WAS ALL THERE WAS..THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE


    Jacob served 14 years for Rachael..and it was as nothing

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2009, 11:51:07 PM »
 :cloud9: Thanks Willie;  :HeartThrob: aside from being speechless right now, I can't really say it any better than what you just did.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

PS. Just read your post Sheila...... :thumbsup: excellent also. Blessings....
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 11:54:32 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #135 on: July 24, 2009, 12:27:48 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

God never gave us an experience that exits in timelessness.  The Apostles and our Lord have never introduced such an idea.  The idea of timelessness is unscriptural.
 

Until you show Scriptural support for your positions, you are in no position to name another's position as, ..."UNSCRIPTURAL"...

So, ...have you found Scripture to "debunk" my CHALLENGES to "your" UNSCRIPTURAL statements , bro?  If not then where do you "get off" saying to another that TIMELESSNESS is, ...UNSCRIPTURAL?  :laughing7:

"Pot", ...calling the "Kettle" _____  :dontknow:

Remember if there is no TIME then God cannot be longsuffering.

Paul

It is not argued by me that GOD is LONGSUFFERING (which is actually PATIENCE)... however,

Where does it say that GOD's "longsuffering" (patience) is done WITHIN TIME Paul?  Since you require SCRIPTURAL basis from others, ...Please note the Scripture which STATES  that GOD's "LONGSUFFERING" is stated as done IN TIME...  :dontknow:

Any element of GOD's existence of "BEING"... is NOT dependent upon TIME, for HE ...IS... ETERNALLY BEFORE it... and the CREATOR ...of IT... which is TOTALLY Scriptural!

TIME is an entity which was MADE -- Gen 1:1-31 by an entity (YHVH) which PRECEEDED it's "creation"... for TIME did NOT EXIST, until it (time) PROCEEDED from the mouth of GOD... which "mouth" preceeded TIME.

The FIRST DAY... means that there were NO "DAYS" before it, otherwise, it was NOT the "FIRST DAY", and the Scripture bears an UNTRUTH (not! :mnah:)...

Prior to the "FIRST DAY"... (days being the primary BIBLICAL measure of TIME), ...TIME did NOT EXIST... which equates to the term TIMELESSNESS...  :dontknow:

Here are some SCRIPTURES which indicate DAYS as the primary and  foundational BIBLICAL measure of TIME:

ADAM:  Concerning the longevity of His life, the WORD notes DAYS --Gen 5:4 -- This notes that YEARS contain DAYS and are a grouping OF THEM...

JESUS:  concerning the DAYLIGHT noted this TIME measure -- John 11:9

JESUS:  Matt 25:13 -- Noting the TIME of His return, bases it upon a DAY...

JESUS:  Matt 6:34 -- noted that CHRIST instructed to stay focused in NOW (toDAY), for the elements of TIME (the "morrow") were irrelevant to NOW which is "when" we LIVE...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #136 on: July 24, 2009, 12:33:48 AM »
willieH: Hi sis!  :cloud9:

:cloud9: Thanks Willie;  :HeartThrob: aside from being speechless right now, I can't really say it any better than what you just did.  :thumbsup: Blessings....

PS. Just read your post Sheila...... :thumbsup: excellent also. Blessings....

Bless you sis!  And I agree, Sheila's post was great!  :happyclap:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Seth

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #137 on: July 24, 2009, 12:34:49 AM »
Quote
I completely agree with this thinking, Seth... NOW is all we have... TIME is the tool of the decay/corruption of "NOW" while it is "manifest" within the finite realm in which we find ourselves.

Hi WillieH, interesting thoughts. Time is one of those issues, fascinating, yet sometimes baffling. You said that "time is the decay of now." Maybe the difference in how we see time factors in to the conclusions we reached, even though some conclusions agree with eachother.

I usually relate the word "decay" to things which are physical. The NOW is really not subject to decay by "time," because no matter where or in what condition we are, "now" always is, and always will be....now. Nor do I (as a side note) believe that time ITSELF decays physical things, only that other physical things do that as now proceeds infinitesimal moment by moment. For example, the passing of time is not the ACTUAL tool of decay for a rock on the beach, the ocean is. Physical decays physical.

One big difference, maybe, in how we view time, is in time being an "entity." I do not see time as an "entity" as being something with an independent existence from everything else which would be discarded. I view time as thought, and really nothing more: The past is memory, and the future is expectation/promise/intention, which is not, until it is.

Here is my official (that is just at this moment, not that I wouldn't change my mind if I saw reason) definition of time: a mental ascertaining of moments.

In THAT respect, I do not see "time" as having a beginning or end. If music exists in eternity, and I percieve each note, I will remember those notes, and therefore those notes will be passed, where the actual existence of the sound occurs in the moment it is played. From the perspective that I see "time" as being not an independent entity from thought, for time to end in eternity, our memories would need to be wiped. So if we experienced music in the now, we would not be able to remember what we heard as eternity progresses.

This perspective calls to mind the theory that "eternity" is somehow the past, present, and future occuring all at once all the time. Huh? Not saying that this is your theory or not, but such a theory is presupposes that something HAPPENS IN the past, which I think you and I agree is not really the case.

If everything is now, as we agree, then time is not an existent LINE whereby events happen simultaniously along that line. That's the stuff of Science Fiction movies and comic books. I personally think that is bunko. Three things work against THAT past/present/future all-at-once-theory: not Scriptural, incomprehensible, not logical. Nothing "happens" in the past, and nothing "happens" in the future. Everything happens now and the rest is mental.

Just my thoughts bro.  :HeartThrob:

Quote
I agree that there must be "progression" in Eternity otherwise everything would be "frozen" -- without activity, ...but that progression is not due to TIME elapsing...

I don't believe time does elapse. Going back to the idea of NOW being in decay. NOW is never decaying, however, taking the example of music: what elapses is not the NOW, but the note that plays IN that moment. So it isn't that TIME (the mental construct) itself elapses, but the EVENTS IN the now elapse after they occur allowing progression to exist. The "now" is stationary, and events pass through it, from promise, to actual experience (now), and then instantly into memory.





« Last Edit: July 24, 2009, 02:25:28 AM by Seth »

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #138 on: July 24, 2009, 01:13:58 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

God never gave us an experience that exits in timelessness.  The Apostles and our Lord have never introduced such an idea.  The idea of timelessness is unscriptural.
 

Until you show Scriptural support for your positions, you are in no position to name another's position as, ..."UNSCRIPTURAL"...

So, ...have you found Scripture to "debunk" my CHALLENGES to "your" UNSCRIPTURAL statements , bro?  If not then where do you "get off" saying to another that TIMELESSNESS is, ...UNSCRIPTURAL?  :laughing7:

"Pot", ...calling the "Kettle" _____  :dontknow:

Remember if there is no TIME then God cannot be longsuffering.

Paul

It is not argued by me that GOD is LONGSUFFERING (which is actually PATIENCE)... however,

Where does it say that GOD's "longsuffering" (patience) is done WITHIN TIME Paul?  Since you require SCRIPTURAL basis from others, ...Please note the Scripture which STATES  that GOD's "LONGSUFFERING" is stated as done IN TIME...  :dontknow:

Any element of GOD's existence of "BEING"... is NOT dependent upon TIME, for HE ...IS... ETERNALLY BEFORE it... and the CREATOR ...of IT... which is TOTALLY Scriptural!

TIME is an entity which was MADE -- Gen 1:1-31 by an entity (YHVH) which PRECEEDED it's "creation"... for TIME did NOT EXIST, until it (time) PROCEEDED from the mouth of GOD... which "mouth" preceeded TIME.

The FIRST DAY... means that there were NO "DAYS" before it, otherwise, it was NOT the "FIRST DAY", and the Scripture bears an UNTRUTH (not! :mnah:)...

Prior to the "FIRST DAY"... (days being the primary BIBLICAL measure of TIME), ...TIME did NOT EXIST... which equates to the term TIMELESSNESS...  :dontknow:

Here are some SCRIPTURES which indicate DAYS as the primary and  foundational BIBLICAL measure of TIME:

ADAM:  Concerning the longevity of His life, the WORD notes DAYS --Gen 5:4 -- This notes that YEARS contain DAYS and are a grouping OF THEM...

JESUS:  concerning the DAYLIGHT noted this TIME measure -- John 11:9

JESUS:  Matt 25:13 -- Noting the TIME of His return, bases it upon a DAY...

JESUS:  Matt 6:34 -- noted that CHRIST instructed to stay focused in NOW (toDAY), for the elements of TIME (the "morrow") were irrelevant to NOW which is "when" we LIVE...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

WillieH, I have no need of your challenges to know the Truth on this topic.  You haven't yet shown where the scriptures say that "God exists in timelessness".   Time is not something that is created.  It just IS - as He is.

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #139 on: July 24, 2009, 01:18:41 AM »
WillieH, don't confuse measurements of time with time.  You used Genesis 1:31 to claim that God made time.  He does no such thing.  Time exists as He exists.  Genesis 1:31 doesn't say that time was created.  In fact all things created were created INSIDE of time.

Paul

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #140 on: July 24, 2009, 02:26:29 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

WillieH, I have no need of your challenges to know the Truth on this topic.

 :laughing7: -- My "challenges" were to UNSCRIPTURAL statements you have made in this discussion, bro... and as I said, you won't be producing them, for they don't exist.

You haven't yet shown where the scriptures say that "God exists in timelessness".

I have more than made a basis for TIMELESSNESS Scripturally, you just do not acknowledge it... which is fine with me... Only God shall teach you what you need to know, when you need to know it...  :dontknow:

Time is not something that is created.  It just IS - as He is.

Paul

This is nothing but denial you make in order to maintain your beliefs concerning TIME...

DAYS are the essential CREATION of TIME... as I have already noted and have no intention of repeating... That you purposely avoid this is your affair bro...

The challenges to your UNSCRIPTURAL statements remain:

CHALLENGE #1:  Thus far, even though you have responded to me several times (including this response), ...and you have avoided one challenge so far, in that you have not provided the Scripture which notes "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... are you having trouble locating it?  :Chinscratch:

CHALLENGE #2:  Note the Scripture which says (according to the words you just stated) "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #141 on: July 24, 2009, 02:55:48 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul...  :icon_flower:

WillieH, I have no need of your challenges to know the Truth on this topic.

 :laughing7: -- My "challenges" were to UNSCRIPTURAL statements you have made in this discussion, bro... and as I said, you won't be producing them, for they don't exist.

You haven't yet shown where the scriptures say that "God exists in timelessness".

I have more than made a basis for TIMELESSNESS Scripturally, you just do not acknowledge it... which is fine with me... Only God shall teach you what you need to know, when you need to know it...  :dontknow:

Time is not something that is created.  It just IS - as He is.

Paul

This is nothing but denial you make in order to maintain your beliefs concerning TIME...

DAYS are the essential CREATION of TIME... as I have already noted and have no intention of repeating... That you purposely avoid this is your affair bro...

The challenges to your UNSCRIPTURAL statements remain:

CHALLENGE #1:  Thus far, even though you have responded to me several times (including this response), ...and you have avoided one challenge so far, in that you have not provided the Scripture which notes "ETERNITY is a SPAN of TIME"... are you having trouble locating it?  :Chinscratch:

CHALLENGE #2:  Note the Scripture which says (according to the words you just stated) "TIME itself is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD"  :dontknow:

:Peace:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Willie, I will show you in time, bro.  But let me tell you, just as the scriptures don't say that "Eternity is a span of Time", it also doesn't say "God will save trettep".

Anything less than getting word for word literal translation for you seems to be pointless at this point Willie.  Because you will quickly say "show me a sign".

Paul

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #142 on: July 24, 2009, 03:27:50 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

WillieH, don't confuse measurements of time with time.

Please bro... You stumble over your own words in trying to keep from drowning in the self-deception in which you wallow...  :sigh:  How can TIME be separated from its MEASUREMENT?  That is like saying the GALLON (measurement) is separate and not to be confused with the MILK...  :mshock:

An HOUR is 60 minutes and cannot be separated from that measurement... a DAY is 24 hours and cannot be separated from that measurement...

If these things were as OPTIONAL as you propose (TIME's "measurement" separate from itself)... then you must be just as willing to work A YEAR for a WEEK's pay -- as opposed to just a WEEK -- eh?  :pointlaugh:

Such thinking is stubborn and just ridiculous... :pitiful:

You used Genesis 1:31 to claim that God made time.  He does no such thing.  Time exists as He exists.  Genesis 1:31 doesn't say that time was created.  In fact all things created were created INSIDE of time.

Paul

More denial... ETERNITY is not an entity IN TIME... you have the cart before the horse, bro...

TIME was created INSIDE of ETERNITY...

FIRST -- I have proven that DAYS are the essential BIBLICAL measurement of TIME...

SECOND -- You in effect above DENY that DAYS are TIME!!

THIRD -- I have already SCRIPTURALLY proven that TIME is BIBLICALLY measured in DAYS... For ADAM's LIFESPAN of TIME, was noted IN DAYS...

FOURTH -- TIME is clearly the OPPOSITE of ETERNITY --->

>>  TIME is INCOMPLETE -- :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is COMPLETE --  :cloud9:
>>  TIME is TEMPORAL --  :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is PERMANENT --  :cloud9:
>>  TIME is the realm of DECAYING and SIN and DEATH --  :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is the realm of HEALTH and HOLINESS and LIFE --  :cloud9:

1 John 2:18 --  we know that it is the LAST TIME...
Rev 10:6 -- there should be TIME ...NO LONGER...
Eph 5:16 -- the DAYS are EVIL...
Acts 2:17 -- the LAST DAYS...
John 6:44 -- the LAST DAY -- no more "days"


PRIOR to Creation OF DAYS which CHRIST noted as a TIME MEASUREMENT (already provided) -- GOD's Spirit is NOTED -- Gen 1:1 as well as ALL the SONS of GOD were PRESENT -- Job 38:7

DAYS were created Trettep... yet you deny them as "time", calling them "measurements" which are separate not to be confused with the entity they "measure"...  dont' know whether to -- :rolleye: -- or just  -- :sigh:

Paul... you require others to BIBLICALLY prove themselves, but all you seem to do is post your OPINION (your words) with NO BIBLICAL support of it...  :thumbdown:

In your short time here, I have noted your enlightenment on other subjects... which notes you to be a seeker...  :nod:

And it is not necessarily vital that you know this particular truth, in order for you to be an effective witness for God...  :dontknow:

I believe that you shall know it as TIME comes to unfold in your experience...  :happygrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #143 on: July 24, 2009, 03:56:23 AM »
When time is removed, we will all LIVE in the MOMENT and behold it, NOW... it will not be elusively gone in a wink of an eye, as the "clock ticks" but remain joy, everlasting...

But this just doesn't make sense to me.
So when time is removed....
and I see you and say "Hi Willie!"
are you saying that as soon as I say "hi" it is gone so in that moment you hear me say "hi" then all of a sudden, I say "Willie!" and then that is gone... and it was essentially like I never even said "hi willie!" because there is only NOW.

What is so wrong with time that it cannot have a NEW PURPOSE, a glorified purpose?


"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #144 on: July 24, 2009, 03:59:58 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

Willie, I will show you in time, bro.

Hmmm.... Really?  I don't make statements about the Scriptures and then later look into them, hoping to find my statements IN THERE!   :mshock:

Be honest bro, ...If indeed you KNEW these thoughts were Scripturally based, you would've long ago posted that proof...

In any event, ...I won't "hold my breath", ...and don't take TOO LONG brother, after all, I'm 64 years old -- for crying out loud!  :laughing7: 

But let me tell you, just as the scriptures don't say that "Eternity is a span of Time", it also doesn't say "God will save trettep".

Nice to see you admit that one of your statements is not mentioned in the WORD...  :thumbsup:  I commend you for it!  :happygrin:

ahhh, but GOD DOES SAY He will SAVE ALL, which happens to include YOU, brother "trettep"!!!  :laughing7:

In any event, we are not discussing that the SCRIPTURE does not personally NAME us... we are discussing that YOU have made some statements which are NOT FOUNDED in the SCRIPTURE, and until you name their SCRIPTURAL FOUNDATION... they remain UNSCRIPTURAL...

One of which you have just admitted to,  :cloud9: ...and btw... the other ("Time itself, is an ATTRIBUTE of GOD") isn't in there either...  :mnah:  :wink2:

Anything less than getting word for word literal translation for you seems to be pointless at this point Willie.

Come - on!  :Violinhit:

You haven't produced ANYTHING Paul!  Not even a "loosely worded" -- "kinda close" to your statement -- kind of SCRIPTURE!  NOTHING!  Cough it up dude!  Or it just appears you are talking out of your B__t opinion... :dontknow:  :laughing7:

Hey we all do it here & there, no biggie, bro...  :laughing7:

  Because you will quickly say "show me a sign".

Boy, you are really reaching there my friend... All I asked was for you to produce foundation for your statements... You have FAILED to do so... and WHERE have I required of you to "show me a sign"?   :JCThink:  Come on me-bratha  :afFro:

Let's face it bro, they ARE NOT IN THERE...  It is part of the learning process to engage humility... trust me, I have eaten a word or two along my pathway.
"Humble pie" doesn't taste that bad... It is a healing food to eat... and believe me, I've munched on it a time or two!

I would hope to get it through to you, that it is not YOU against ME... we are both seeking the TRUTH... and one possibly both of us, shall have a bite of that "PIE" as TIME unfolds...  :laughhand:

I don't have a problem with being INCORRECT... for part of the DUTY of the SCRIPTURE is to CORRECT... and I LOVE that about SCRIPTURE... I do not avoid it... I jump INTO IT...

So, come on in brother trettep, ...the water's fine!  :friendstu:  :beach:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #145 on: July 24, 2009, 04:05:29 AM »
No time makes sense.
and then it doesn't make sense.


see... I'm on the verge of it making sense..
and then I lose it.

hmmm.
maybe I should just stick to pondering this subject for now.

peace ya'll..  :Sparkletooth:
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline willieH

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #146 on: July 24, 2009, 04:07:11 AM »
willieH: Hi sister S...  :cloud9:

When time is removed, we will all LIVE in the MOMENT and behold it, NOW... it will not be elusively gone in a wink of an eye, as the "clock ticks" but remain joy, everlasting...

But this just doesn't make sense to me.
So when time is removed....
and I see you and say "Hi Willie!"
are you saying that as soon as I say "hi" it is gone so in that moment you hear me say "hi" then all of a sudden, I say "Willie!" and then that is gone... and it was essentially like I never even said "hi willie!" because there is only NOW.


NO... what I was saying that your greeting IS enjoyed forever... not just disappearing into a forgotten past, as does most of this life... What did you have for lunch on July 1st?

What is so wrong with time that it cannot have a NEW PURPOSE, a glorified purpose?

GOD notes time shall end... and its purpose is accomplished... which means that HIS PURPOSE is what we need to embrace, not our perceptions in this life...

Whatever He has prepared for us in our RETURN to ETERNITY... is JOYFUL and COMPLETE well beyond the LIMITED parameters of this life, to include  :clock: --TIME...  :grouppray: :friendstu: :banana: :myahoo: :LoveH1: :mfriends: :nod:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #147 on: July 24, 2009, 04:35:40 AM »
willieH: Hi Paul... :hithere:

WillieH, don't confuse measurements of time with time.

Please bro... You stumble over your own words in trying to keep from drowning in the self-deception in which you wallow...  :sigh:  How can TIME be separated from its MEASUREMENT?  That is like saying the GALLON (measurement) is separate and not to be confused with the MILK...  :mshock:

An HOUR is 60 minutes and cannot be separated from that measurement... a DAY is 24 hours and cannot be separated from that measurement...

If these things were as OPTIONAL as you propose (TIME's "measurement" separate from itself)... then you must be just as willing to work A YEAR for a WEEK's pay -- as opposed to just a WEEK -- eh?  :pointlaugh:

Such thinking is stubborn and just ridiculous... :pitiful:

You used Genesis 1:31 to claim that God made time.  He does no such thing.  Time exists as He exists.  Genesis 1:31 doesn't say that time was created.  In fact all things created were created INSIDE of time.

Paul

More denial... ETERNITY is not an entity IN TIME... you have the cart before the horse, bro...

TIME was created INSIDE of ETERNITY...

FIRST -- I have proven that DAYS are the essential BIBLICAL measurement of TIME...

SECOND -- You in effect above DENY that DAYS are TIME!!

THIRD -- I have already SCRIPTURALLY proven that TIME is BIBLICALLY measured in DAYS... For ADAM's LIFESPAN of TIME, was noted IN DAYS...

FOURTH -- TIME is clearly the OPPOSITE of ETERNITY --->

>>  TIME is INCOMPLETE -- :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is COMPLETE --  :cloud9:
>>  TIME is TEMPORAL --  :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is PERMANENT --  :cloud9:
>>  TIME is the realm of DECAYING and SIN and DEATH --  :sigh: -- whereas ETERNITY is the realm of HEALTH and HOLINESS and LIFE --  :cloud9:

1 John 2:18 --  we know that it is the LAST TIME...
Rev 10:6 -- there should be TIME ...NO LONGER...
Eph 5:16 -- the DAYS are EVIL...
Acts 2:17 -- the LAST DAYS...
John 6:44 -- the LAST DAY -- no more "days"


PRIOR to Creation OF DAYS which CHRIST noted as a TIME MEASUREMENT (already provided) -- GOD's Spirit is NOTED -- Gen 1:1 as well as ALL the SONS of GOD were PRESENT -- Job 38:7

DAYS were created Trettep... yet you deny them as "time", calling them "measurements" which are separate not to be confused with the entity they "measure"...  dont' know whether to -- :rolleye: -- or just  -- :sigh:

Paul... you require others to BIBLICALLY prove themselves, but all you seem to do is post your OPINION (your words) with NO BIBLICAL support of it...  :thumbdown:

In your short time here, I have noted your enlightenment on other subjects... which notes you to be a seeker...  :nod:

And it is not necessarily vital that you know this particular truth, in order for you to be an effective witness for God...  :dontknow:

I believe that you shall know it as TIME comes to unfold in your experience...  :happygrin:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Willie, a day is not 24 hours.  A day is 12 hours.  Light is the measurement for measuring the day.  There cannot be more than 12 hours in a day.   See your confusing measurement and time.  Were talking scripture, willie, you won't find an hour mentioned more than twelve in the scriptures.

Those are measurements OF Time. 

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you get that willie?  We are to understand God by the things that are MADE in this creation (kosmos).  Now where is timelessness to be understood by the things that are made?

Can you tell me what is made by which I should understand timelessness?

Paul

trettep

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #148 on: July 24, 2009, 04:41:01 AM »
No time makes sense.
and then it doesn't make sense.


see... I'm on the verge of it making sense..
and then I lose it.

hmmm.
maybe I should just stick to pondering this subject for now.

peace ya'll..  :Sparkletooth:

Sparrow, time always exists.  There is never a time when there isn't time.  Days, years, months, seconds, seasons, durations, etc... are all just measurements in time.

Paul

Offline sparrow

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Re: Personal Savior?
« Reply #149 on: July 24, 2009, 05:03:11 AM »
NO... what I was saying that your greeting IS enjoyed forever... not just disappearing into a forgotten past, as does most of this life... What did you have for lunch on July 1st?


GOD notes time shall end... and its purpose is accomplished... which means that HIS PURPOSE is what we need to embrace, not our perceptions in this life...

Whatever He has prepared for us in our RETURN to ETERNITY... is JOYFUL and COMPLETE well beyond the LIMITED parameters of this life, to include  :clock: --TIME...  :grouppray: :friendstu: :banana: :myahoo: :LoveH1: :mfriends: :nod:

:Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

ohhhhh.... hmmm. I like that, willie. "your greeting IS enjoyed forever... not just disappearing into a forgotten past, as does most of this life.."

That is making "eternity" make more sense and seem less scary.
I mean, eternity, sometimes.... seems a bit scary.
because you start to think of things in strange, not so good ways.

But what you just said.. and thinking about the quote I posted earlier, and then what Seth said...
hmmm. I think I'm in the beginnings of this maybe starting to make a little more sense.

thanks you guys...
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.