Author Topic: To be...to become  (Read 833 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gregoryfl

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 446
To be...to become
« on: September 10, 2011, 05:58:33 AM »
There are many verses which speak of 'being', as well as those which speak of 'becoming'. Has anyone ever stopped to think that they are often misunderstood and treated as though they were saying the same thing, when they are not?

Ron Gregory

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2011, 06:20:10 AM »
Not sure if I understand?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline gregoryfl

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 446
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2011, 07:06:29 AM »
Ok, here is an example of what I mean. I will start off with the first phrase 'to be.'

If I were to say to a male 'Be a man!' can I honestly ask him to do that, and why or why not?

If I were to say to a female 'Be a man!' can I honestly ask her to do that, and why or why not?

Do you see a commonality with regard to these 2 questions?

What I think I see as to how these phrases are defined makes me weep for joy when I consider them in the scripture. I was hoping though, to see if anyone else has perhaps seen any significance to these little words in regard to Universal reconciliation, and our identity.

Ron Gregory


Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2011, 07:28:57 AM »
I still don't quite understand, but this is what I have for what it does for your wonder I do not know.
Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.(ASV)
Rom 8:6  For, what is preferred by the flesh, is death, whereas, what is preferred by the spirit, is life and peace; (Rotherham)

And a strong understanding for "to be" and "becoming."

Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega,is saying the Lord God, Who is and Who was and Who is coming, the Almighty."


Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.

When the Father draws us, Joh 6:44  no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

We are to be and we may become should we be of His choosing.  :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8953
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2011, 07:35:37 AM »
If you guys get around to talkin' about 'has-beens', then you've done stopped preachin' and started to meddlin'.   :laughing7:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline gregoryfl

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 446
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2011, 04:18:36 PM »
Thank you Micah.

Offline gregoryfl

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 446
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2011, 10:40:40 PM »
I was just going to let this die, but will go ahead and do what I did not want to, even though I know what is going to happen. So, here goes...

Peter said 'Become holy in all your conduct, because it has been written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.'

Here is a classic example of the difference between the idea of becoming, and of being. In the example I gave in the previous post, only a male can be told to 'be a man', not a woman. The reason is simple enough. A man is a man, while a woman is not. One can never 'be' what they are not.

Christianity often speaks out of lack, rather than out of reality. Those who do this would interpret Peter's words to mean:

'Become holy in all your conduct, because it has been written, 'Become holy, for I am holy.'

It would be foolish for Peter to tell them to 'become holy'. Why? Because they already WERE holy.

HOWEVER...

Just because one is holy doesn't mean we will always act like it. This was the case here. Peter was very careful in what he said. He did not say to 'become holy.' What he said was 'become holy IN ALL YOUR CONDUCT.'

And what is the basis upon which he could encourage them to become holy in all their conduct? THAT THEY WERE ALREADY HOLY! Remember, you cannot be what you are not already.

Peter spoke out of the reality of their being holy already, not out of lack, as though they were not holy and needed to work to become holy. No, he was merely encouraging them to act OUTWARDLY as they already were INWARDLY.

In the example I gave of the man, for me to encourage a man to 'be a man' implies that they are already a man, but are not acting like a man. I would be encouraging them to act like what they are.

Here is where it gets very exciting...

Adam and Eve were the first to, as husband and wife...'become one flesh.' This means they currently were not one flesh. They had not come together yet to make that happen. Now, once they have become one flesh, any further encouragements would be to 'be one flesh.'

To me, this sheds a whole new light on otherwise very familiar passages, but as Jesus words:

'...that they may be one, as we are one.'

I have always been taught to read this as becoming something that I was not currently. The idea presented is that man was not one with God, and Jesus came to make man one with God. But, what if man was always one with God, but that the reality of that was hidden from man by means of death and the experience of a separated mind from God, and that Jesus came, not to make us one with God, but to remove the barrier which prevented us from seeing the truth, which is we are one, and have always been one, with him? And I mean all mankind, not just us believers. We are simply the one who are having the blinders removed (so to speak).

Therefore, to 'be one', is to either see (or be seen) as one with God, and thus enabled to behave out of that reality.

Ron Gregory

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2011, 11:31:20 PM »
That is very good. Thank you :bigGrin:

I can see that what you have revealed, we will talk I hope. :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Molly

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 11247
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2011, 12:13:55 AM »
I was just going to let this die, but will go ahead and do what I did not want to, even though I know what is going to happen. So, here goes...

Peter said 'Become holy in all your conduct, because it has been written, 'Be holy, for I am holy.'

Here is a classic example of the difference between the idea of becoming, and of being. In the example I gave in the previous post, only a male can be told to 'be a man', not a woman. The reason is simple enough. A man is a man, while a woman is not. One can never 'be' what they are not.

Christianity often speaks out of lack, rather than out of reality. Those who do this would interpret Peter's words to mean:

'Become holy in all your conduct, because it has been written, 'Become holy, for I am holy.'

It would be foolish for Peter to tell them to 'become holy'. Why? Because they already WERE holy.

HOWEVER...

Just because one is holy doesn't mean we will always act like it. This was the case here. Peter was very careful in what he said. He did not say to 'become holy.' What he said was 'become holy IN ALL YOUR CONDUCT.'

And what is the basis upon which he could encourage them to become holy in all their conduct? THAT THEY WERE ALREADY HOLY! Remember, you cannot be what you are not already.

Peter spoke out of the reality of their being holy already, not out of lack, as though they were not holy and needed to work to become holy. No, he was merely encouraging them to act OUTWARDLY as they already were INWARDLY.

In the example I gave of the man, for me to encourage a man to 'be a man' implies that they are already a man, but are not acting like a man. I would be encouraging them to act like what they are.

Here is where it gets very exciting...

Adam and Eve were the first to, as husband and wife...'become one flesh.' This means they currently were not one flesh. They had not come together yet to make that happen. Now, once they have become one flesh, any further encouragements would be to 'be one flesh.'

To me, this sheds a whole new light on otherwise very familiar passages, but as Jesus words:

'...that they may be one, as we are one.'

I have always been taught to read this as becoming something that I was not currently. The idea presented is that man was not one with God, and Jesus came to make man one with God. But, what if man was always one with God, but that the reality of that was hidden from man by means of death and the experience of a separated mind from God, and that Jesus came, not to make us one with God, but to remove the barrier which prevented us from seeing the truth, which is we are one, and have always been one, with him? And I mean all mankind, not just us believers. We are simply the one who are having the blinders removed (so to speak).

Therefore, to 'be one', is to either see (or be seen) as one with God, and thus enabled to behave out of that reality.

Ron Gregory

 :thumbsup:

Gen 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.


Offline redhotmagma

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1106
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2011, 12:19:28 AM »
 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
He came to remove the veil, that is flesh, the god of this world has blinded men to the light

We look as in a mirror, an enigma, we've forgotten what our kind[genesis] is. But we all with unveiled faces relflecting the glory.  The mystery hidden in ages past, Christ in you the hope of glory.

We are now seated at the right hand of the Father

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3576
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2011, 12:54:01 AM »
BEAUTIFUL!!! :cloud9:

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2011, 05:17:14 AM »
Quote from: gregoryfl
I have always been taught to read this as becoming something that I was not currently. The idea presented is that man was not one with God, and Jesus came to make man one with God. But, what if man was always one with God, but that the reality of that was hidden from man by means of death and the experience of a separated mind from God, and that Jesus came, not to make us one with God, but to remove the barrier which prevented us from seeing the truth, which is we are one, and have always been one, with him? And I mean all mankind, not just us believers. We are simply the one who are having the blinders removed (so to speak).

I think this was what the mystery that Paul mentioned was all about. It was the plan of God from the very beginning to reconcile the world to himself. This knowledge was hid in God from the beginning and was reveiled to Paul first. No one knew about it, if they had they wouldn't have crucified Jesus. This is what I believe Paul said.

CHB

CHB


Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5618
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: To be...to become
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2011, 05:40:19 AM »
Quote from: gregoryfl
I have always been taught to read this as becoming something that I was not currently. The idea presented is that man was not one with God, and Jesus came to make man one with God. But, what if man was always one with God, but that the reality of that was hidden from man by means of death and the experience of a separated mind from God, and that Jesus came, not to make us one with God, but to remove the barrier which prevented us from seeing the truth, which is we are one, and have always been one, with him? And I mean all mankind, not just us believers. We are simply the one who are having the blinders removed (so to speak).

I think this was what the mystery that Paul mentioned was all about. It was the plan of God from the very beginning to reconcile the world to himself. This knowledge was hid in God from the beginning and was reveiled to Paul first. No one knew about it, if they had they wouldn't have crucified Jesus. This is what I believe Paul said.

CHB

CHB

 :thumbsup: :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.