Author Topic: original sin?  (Read 2091 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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original sin?
« on: October 28, 2010, 11:39:50 PM »
The expression "original sin." has been about for sometime. My question is what does it mean? Where did it come from?
Just what is original sin?
David said
Psa 51:5  Lo! in iniquity, was I brought forth, And, in sin, did my mother conceive me. But I dont know, does that mean sexual intercourse is a sin?
I do not find the word "sin" used  in the Bible until
Gen 4:7 Would you not, should you be doing well, lift it up? And should you not be doing well, at the opening a sin offering is reclining, and for you is its restoration. And you are ruler over it.
I do not find the word sin used in reference to Adam and Eve in Genesis, yet Paul writes in 
Rom 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind, on which all sinned -"
Ive always been taught that it was Adam he spoke of, is it?
Original sin, when did it start?
Its like the expression the "fall of man," did man fall?  The way I see it if man "fell" then God goofed up. If God didnt goof up, then man did not "fall."
Seems to me there is alot of expressions of learned men of the theological persuasion that are not biblically sound. Like we have an "immortal soul," "rapture," "trinity," there are more but I hope you get my point.
Right now Im wondering about information on "original sin."
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Lefein

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2010, 11:46:04 PM »
The original sin is a "cover all" term to describe the fact that humans by nature, are sinful creatures, starting after Adam's disobedience.

A bit like the Trinity being a "cover all" term to describe the nature of God's manifestations on Earth - Angel of The Lord, Holy Spirit (God in us) Jesus, etc, etc.

Basically, they are not terms used in the Bible, but they are convenient ways to be able to say something without having to say a mouth full, because most people get what you mean.

It is in my understanding, that alot of the terms like, rapture, trinity, original sin, and all of these cover-all terms, are a bit like this;

I can say "gravity" as a cover-all term for "the not entirely well known force of attraction between objects with mass as determined by mass to volumetric ratios modified by the total distance between said two or more objects."

Its much easier to just say gravity, rather than the quoted statement all the time.

CLV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred, it rouses up quarrels, Yet love covers over all transgressions.
KJV: Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Offline thinktank

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2010, 11:54:27 PM »
sometimes I wonder if man fell before Adam sinned. That the tree was a 2nd test of loyalty. But this is just speculation, there are many biblical problems with this.

But I think something happened to us, maybe we were once gods who rebelled against God and his his anger he punished us by changing us into flesh and blood and made us forget who we are, that we are prisoners of the flesh...you are hereby sentenced, to mortality and suffering and ye shall no longer have access to heaven, until God comes himself to save you.
Any of this ring a bell.......!

 :2c: :2c:  :2c:

Offline Cardinal

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 01:03:08 AM »
 :cloud9: Actually, yes it does...... :winkgrin:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 01:59:49 AM »
:cloud9: Actually, yes it does...... :winkgrin:

Not to change the subject, but in what way does your bell ring?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 09:13:11 AM »
Back and forth.... :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Cardinal

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 09:50:09 AM »
:cloud9: Actually, yes it does...... :winkgrin:

Not to change the subject, but in what way does your bell ring?

 :cloud9: When we were lowered, a veil of forgetfulness was put upon us to prevent us from fully remembering who we were in Him. By remembering, I don't mean the common usage of the word, I mean the remembrance that comes only from the Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance, which imparts the life that accompanies revelation. I believe from a dream/vision He gave me, this remembrance may be what initiates the final swallowing up of corruption by incorruption, but it can only be obtained thru and by Him. My  :2c: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Cardinal

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 09:50:53 AM »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 04:45:40 PM »
:cloud9: Actually, yes it does...... :winkgrin:

Not to change the subject, but in what way does your bell ring?

 :cloud9: When we were lowered, a veil of forgetfulness was put upon us to prevent us from fully remembering who we were in Him. By remembering, I don't mean the common usage of the word, I mean the remembrance that comes only from the Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance, which imparts the life that accompanies revelation. I believe from a dream/vision He gave me, this remembrance may be what initiates the final swallowing up of corruption by incorruption, but it can only be obtained thru and by Him. My  :2c: Blessings....

I dont understand this, " when we were lowered...."??
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 05:27:48 PM »
 :cloud9: The only way I can answer you is to go deep........

We were lowered from being one with Him from the foundation of the world, into this bondage of corruption (flesh). When God divided spirit and soul (Eve from Adam) they "fell" and were given skins of flesh.

In the same way, He divided the waters above (spirit) from the waters below (soul) in Genesis 1. In Noah's day, symbolically speaking, the waters above came down, and meeting the waters below (as in a re-union), RAISED UP (like a resurrection) and PRESERVED ALIVE, Noah and his family.

As I have shared before, the resurrection is the re-union of the spirit and the soul, which was divided by God, producing a "fall" into the realm of flesh or dust, where the serpent lives and eats.

God knew a divided HOUSE could not stand, but Adam didn't and had to learn it by EXPERIENCE. Adam and Eve WERE ALREADY ONE, but Adam couldn't SEE IT, and so God brought the soul out so he could see what was in his heart.

And to Lucifer (who is NOT Satan, and was called a MAN) He said, you were perfect (means complete or WHOLE) until iniquity was found in thee. Adam was as a High Priest of God, Lucifer had every precious stone as his covering (the ephod had stones).

The iniquity that was found, BTW, was found in Adam, which is why it says in another place, the SONS OF GOD came before God and Satan was among them. It wasn't "found" as in it took God by surprise that it was there, it was placed there by Him, to use to prove him (like metals are tested and strengthened). Conversely, this is also why Jesus said the prince of this world cometh, but he hath nothing IN ME.

Truth in the same patterns is hidden in plain sight EVERYWHERE. Blessings....
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 05:50:32 PM by Cardinal »
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 05:29:45 PM »

Offline Cardinal

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2010, 06:11:35 PM »
 :cloud9: I don't read his stuff normally (only because I want confirmation, after the fact, of what I hear for myself), but I read the first couple of paragraphs to see why you posted it.  God is good......:thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2010, 06:22:02 PM »
I dont believe that is correct.  Are representing a law of circularity, that man was  spirit before Gen. 1.?  I have read Eby.

It boggles my mind how a post always seems to go somewhere else almost immediately after its posted.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2010, 06:30:38 PM »
 :cloud9: You can't fall from a place you've never been before  :bigGrin:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2010, 06:34:08 PM »
:cloud9: You can't fall from a place you've never been before  :bigGrin:


We are somewhere else before we are sown in corruption, if only in the farmer's hand.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2010, 06:35:09 PM »
:cloud9: You can't fall from a place you've never been before  :bigGrin:

What fall are you talking about?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2010, 06:36:02 PM »
:cloud9: You can't fall from a place you've never been before  :bigGrin:


We are somewhere else before we are sown in corruption, if only in the farmer's hand.

I dont understand that.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2010, 06:37:08 PM »



The Sons of God are of One Spirit.

Offline Molly

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2010, 06:41:53 PM »
:cloud9: You can't fall from a place you've never been before  :bigGrin:


We are somewhere else before we are sown in corruption, if only in the farmer's hand.

I dont understand that.
Paul is using a farming metaphor to explain what is happening here, and such farming metaphors are used throughout the Bible.

When a seed is sown, where does it come from?  It comes from another plant which is somewhere else, then is preserved [dies], taken by the farmer and later sown in the soil.

If we are sown in corruption--born into this body--we are taken from somewhere else and then sown.


...according as He hath chosen us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to Himself (Eph. 1:4-5).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 06:45:22 PM by Molly »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2010, 06:48:04 PM »



You were there and so was I
The seed of Great "I AM",
We were extensions of Himself
So He called our name "Ad-AM".

Thus out of God we did proceed,
Projected into time,
In innocence and purity,
A state of bliss sublime.

He breathed us in a body
That He had made of dust,
Male and Female Adam,
Both in body thrust.

Lora Huston

Offline willieH

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2010, 08:36:29 PM »
willieH: Hi Micah!  :hithere:

:cloud9: Actually, yes it does...... :winkgrin:

Not to change the subject, but in what way does your bell ring?

 :cloud9: When we were lowered, a veil of forgetfulness was put upon us to prevent us from fully remembering who we were in Him. By remembering, I don't mean the common usage of the word, I mean the remembrance that comes only from the Spirit bringing all things to our remembrance, which imparts the life that accompanies revelation. I believe from a dream/vision He gave me, this remembrance may be what initiates the final swallowing up of corruption by incorruption, but it can only be obtained thru and by Him. My  :2c: Blessings....

I dont understand this, " when we were lowered...."??

My  :2c:

1.  Job 38:4 -- where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?  DECLARE ...IF... thou has understanding.

Job 38:7 -- when the morning stars sang and ...ALL... the SONS of God shouted for joy?

ALL the SONS of God were present at creation...  but have been immersed in the SINFUL state by the CONCLUSION of GOD -- Rom 11:32 --  therefore "understanding" of the state that preceeded this one, is not presently available to us.



2.   Read the parable of the prodigal son... the son was WITH the Father and spoke with the Father so he was ALREADY a cognizant being, then he left, and then he RETURNED...



3.  ALL things about YHVH are ALIVE (including His KNOWLEDGE)... YHVH is an UNCHANGING being... whatsoever is within or a portion OF Him is also UNCHANGING -- Acts 17:28 -- This present world is a REVELATION of things IN Him (knowledge of Good and Evil) which prior to this experience were UNREVEALED...

As CARD said... we have been lowered into this realm for the purpose of the REVELATION of the WORD which contains the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... and as LIVING participants which engage both within the same scenario, ...to exemplify which of these two is acceptable behavior concerning the conducting of LIFE and which one is NOT.  Thereby GLORIFYING YHVH in His Holiness and WAY of conducting LIFE, which is done forever in the state of GOOD.

Hope that helps you Micah...  :friendstu:


...willieH  :cloud9:
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 09:06:04 PM by willieH »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2010, 08:50:52 PM »
Amen Willie,
Sin is nailed to The Eternal Cross.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2010, 10:19:20 PM »
Job never answered, did Job declare?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2010, 10:22:48 PM »



The Sons of God are of One Spirit.

Amen to that! :bigGrin:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline willieH

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Re: original sin?
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2010, 10:43:56 PM »
willieH: Hi Micah...  :happygrin:

Don't mean to sidetrack the "original sin" question you have asked, ...but to answer this:

Job never answered, did Job declare?

As I see it, ...the "answer" was both in the "question" God asked him... "where were you"?  There must have been a "where" for God asked Job to name it...  :Sparkletooth:  ...as well as in the statement that followed -- "when ALL the SONS of God shouted for joy"...  The answer (if Job had understanding) was "shouting for Joy" (at the marvel of the foundational revelation)

If there were no "where", then God likely would have noted it in different terms... such as "Did you exist"?

In any event, Job didn't answer because he didn't have understanding...  :winkgrin:

He did not "know" (have understanding) where he was or even, IF he was... so he did not answer...  :dontknow:

...willieH  :cloud9: