Author Topic: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)  (Read 2200 times)

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Offline B_T

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My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« on: January 09, 2009, 01:57:00 PM »
Now... what?

She knows I'm a Universalist, however she refuses to accept that early Christians prayed for   dead people. It's not in her bible. She also refuses to accept that the Bible has changed in the past.

At least she loves me so much she will never leave me.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 04:19:07 PM »


Gotta let God use the seeds you plant.   I cannot convince my own family and trying just created more potential for arguments.

Being open about my beliefs and study but silent in trying to "convince" has proven to change more thought than anything else. 


Offline B_T

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2009, 04:51:38 PM »
Well, I'm open and I share my beliefs, but they are viewed as nonsense.


Offline Sarah

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 05:03:06 PM »
I have shared my beliefs with several people. Many have thought I was crazy, but later came to accept it, or partly. Many times as circumstances in people's lives force them to confront their own beliefs it is then that they are willing to change. It is just important to concentrate on what you share and to let your light shine.

Offline chuckt

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2009, 06:40:48 PM »
yeah if we always saw immediate results we would tend to get puffed up and take the glory for ourselves.

i dont wanna see results, i will wait.

God bless
chuckt
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Offline Brian

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2009, 07:01:11 PM »
Now... what?

She knows I'm a Universalist, however she refuses to accept that early Christians prayed for   dead people. It's not in her bible. She also refuses to accept that the Bible has changed in the past.

At least she loves me so much she will never leave me.

You can't expect people to "buy into" UR at first offer. As long as you're both followers of Jesus, this doesn't make you unevenly yoked. I'm sure there are plenty of couples where one is  Calvinist and the other is an Armenian, and they'll never see eye to eye, on that. But they do see eye to eye, and keep their eyes, on Jesus.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 05:42:53 AM by Brian »
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

martincisneros

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2009, 09:37:00 PM »
Well, 1Timothy 2 says to pray for everyone everywhere and doesn't specify the living or the dead.  It just says to make sure that you include anything/everything anyone/everyone that would have baring on the peace of the Church, though it would be understood to include anything/everything anyone/everyone that would have baring on each member of the Church.  If Jesus isn't the ransom for all men, as stated in that chapter, then what's her assurance that He's the ransom for any man beyond the first century AD?? -- which by the way is one of the dangers I see inherent in preterism, that if it was all back then, then who's to say that it wasn't just for all men back then that He died to the exclusion of everyone else??  Some preterists might not like the implication and may have an emotional reaction against the question, but the reasoning is valid nonetheless. 

If 1John 2:1-2 says that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and for those of the whole entire world and if the second half of that is bullcrap, then why isn't the first part sheer bullcrap as well? 

If Mark 16:15 about preaching the Gospel to every creature -- remembering that Gospel means extravagent superexcessively extraordinarily fantastic [though not incredible] great, great news in the Greek -- if it doesn't mean literally "out of this world news to all of Creation," then on what basis do we preach it to any man since Christ Jesus was obviously speaking in bullcrap after His resurrection, per your girl's ideas, rather than in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. 

If Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God that took away the sin of the world, according to John 1:29, then on what basis can we conclude that He's taken away any man's sin if John 1:29 is bullcrap and He didn't take away the sin of the world??

I'd personally bid her adieu, if it were me, if she could say something so blatantly blasphemous against the Blood by which I've been sanctified.  But that would be much easier for me than for most people for several personal reasons.  Without getting into the megalomania aspects of my personality, I'll simply say [since someone inevitably PMs me about it if I've tried earnestly to be brief] that abandonment issues add to it being particularly easy for me to part ways with people since I genuinely don't believe that anyone in this earth will be with me to the end of my days anyway.  So, my own mentality is that "sooner or later, they're gone anyway, so might as well get it over with rather than prolong my punishment and torment by thinking that they're really 'with me' rather than with themselves and out for themselves alone."

If you're not careful, if your life has been about nothing but pruning thus far, you can easily get to where [in your weaker moments] that that's all that your life will ever be about until 1Corinthians 15:28, "and even then who knows?"

Seems like you're at a couple of forks in the road:

1. Is she rational enough, or sensitive enough to Holy Spirit to where she'd eventually come around if given enough evidence by the Scriptures and Holy Spirit, or is she one of those "her mind's already made up, don't confuse her with the facts" as quite a few people have historically been.

2. Is it a deal breaker for you to where it matters that she's on the same page with you if you're to be life time partners?  If when you get married to her, if you're not already, if you can go home everyday to an ETer/Hellangelist type that probably secretly fears you'll burn forever too for believing as you do, then just don't bring it up again if you can deal with being canned like a sardine for the rest of your life with an ETer.  But on a certain level, if she's not on the same page with you, then it does involve the two of you living two entirely separate spiritual lives while living for the rest of your lives under the same roof and in the same bed.

I personally couldn't do it, but that's just because I've personally been through sooo much already.  Going to an ET church is one thing, if they're not focusing on that with every breath that they breathe during the service, but having to put up with ANY OF THAT at home is a bit much.  It gets to the core of her perspectives about the world, life, her image of God, and her image of you to where it does matter.  But if you can live with that because of your love for her being soooo intense, then simply don't bring it up again.  But you're kidding yourself if you think that she'll ever look at you the same way again after she finally understood that you believe that not a drop of Jesus' Blood will have been wasted and that He'll finish the work given to Him to do by the Father when He was appointed to His next assignment at God's right hand from the Book of Hebrews until 1Corinthians 15:28.  To me, it would be a Blood issue, although I realize that not all UR folks are on the same page with me yet about things like that.

With her ET mindset, you know that her underlying goal, even if she doesn't approach it militantly, is to bring you around to her way of thinking/believing.  With you in her life, she faces UR every single moment of every single day that she's with you, and as you said, she thinks it's bullcrap.

Offline Nancy

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hi ya B_T
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2009, 11:45:11 PM »
Hi ya B_T,

I know how you feel but from a different perspective.  I married my husband Jason, when i believed in ET.  When i look back i don't think that i was a believer in Christ. How could i have been, never having heard the 'good news'.
 
By the way my husband is Jewish but we used to go to church together and he enjoyed the fellowship, i think, more than the worship.  When i had a breakdown and feared i was going to hell, i was transformed when i 'read' the good news on Tentmaker (for which i'll be forever grateful) and i couldn't go to church. My husband was more upset about not going than me!!  Sometimes i want to give in and go for his sake but then i hear a ETer talking on TV or in the street and feel that i cannot bear hearing God being talked about like that. I feel sick to my stomach and i get angry.

I couldn't tell you what to do because i would be a hypocrite of the first degree. Just pray about it, i guess.

Godbless
Nancy

Offline B_T

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2009, 12:58:51 AM »
Quote
I'd personally bid her adieu, if it were me, if she could say something so blatantly blasphemous against the Blood by which I've been sanctified.

I can't leave her. I love her too much and God has already showed me that this is the person I'll spend my life with. Maybe God has a plan for her.
And she's not guilty. Her teachers and pastors are guilty in my opinion.

Quote
If 1John 2:1-2 says that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and for those of the whole entire world and if the second half of that is bullcrap, then why isn't the first part sheer bullcrap as well?

It's logical. But churchy and indoctrined people don't trust in logic.

Quote
If Mark 16:15 about preaching the Gospel to every creature -- remembering that Gospel means extravagent superexcessively extraordinarily fantastic [though not incredible] great, great news in the Greek -- if it doesn't mean literally "out of this world news to all of Creation," then on what basis do we preach it to any man since Christ Jesus was obviously speaking in bullcrap after His resurrection, per your girl's ideas, rather than in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.

Actually, she does believe that the Gospel should be preached to every creature. But we have that FREE WILL. And some people won't repent until they die and when they die it's over...

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Is she rational enough, or sensitive enough to Holy Spirit to where she'd eventually come around if given enough evidence by the Scriptures and Holy Spirit, or is she one of those "her mind's already made up, don't confuse her with the facts" as quite a few people have historically been.

Well... she has already been indoctrined. That means that even when you show her the facts... she won't accept them if they doesn't suit her understanding.

Quote
Is it a deal breaker for you to where it matters that she's on the same page with you if you're to be life time partners?  If when you get married to her, if you're not already, if you can go home everyday to an ETer/Hellangelist type that probably secretly fears you'll burn forever too for believing as you do, then just don't bring it up again if you can deal with being canned like a sardine for the rest of your life with an ETer.

She's not a typical ETer. Though she's indoctrined, I have seen that she's very sensitive in a lot of situations. And she trully loves me. I personally think that she doesn't realise the horrors of this doctrine. Basically, thought this is not a pleasant subject and she avoids it, the bible teaches it and it's written as-is period.

Quote
I personally couldn't do it, but that's just because I've personally been through sooo much already.

Well... I'm young. I can't allow to be terrorized by a single doctrine if I don't believe it. I won't make compromise with my faith and I will never ever believe in everlasting torment.

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Going to an ET church is one thing, if they're not focusing on that with every breath that they breathe during the service, but having to put up with ANY OF THAT at home is a bit much

Actually, we NEVER, NEVER speak about ET at home or when we are alone.
This actually proves my thesis that she doesn't realise the horrors of the doctrine and she just repeats as a parrot what she's been taught.

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It gets to the core of her perspectives about the world, life, her image of God, and her image of you to where it does matter.

If she doesn't realize the horrors, this can't get to the core of her perspectives IMO. She still claims that she loves me too much.

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But if you can live with that because of your love for her being soooo intense, then simply don't bring it up again.

I think it's the best thing I can do for the moment. I shouldn't bring this up again.

Quote
But you're kidding yourself if you think that she'll ever look at you the same way again after she finally understood that you believe that not a drop of Jesus' Blood will have been wasted and that He'll finish the work given to Him to do by the Father when He was appointed to His next assignment at God's right hand from the Book of Hebrews until 1Corinthians 15:28.

If some day she realizes how poweerful our Lord is...  :HeartThrob: :girlheart: Then... Oh, well.
But I do hope I'm not kidding myself. It's up to God to warm her heart.


Offline Nathan

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2009, 01:45:39 AM »
For me bro, the emphasis doesn't have to be on what you believe, but on who you love.  You both love God . . .and even if you don't, there's enough love in just one of God's kids that covers the whole household . . .(you and your houshold will be saved . . you can quote that one)

Jesus wasn't interested in doctrines as much as he was interested in relationships.  You plant your seeds and let her be.  Let her come to the water on her own terms.  If you try to do it any other way, you'll just be conforming someone to something that they're not ready for and that never has a pretty ending.

God's love is unconditional . .can you imagine that???  Even the people that took his son out . . . he still made accomodations for them.  It's not about a belief system.  Many here have stated and I truly appreciate they did . . .UR isn't what saves you or gets you into heaven.  Our centerpiece should never be about one strand of Truth.  It should always and forever be the source of Truth.  Enjoy her company and let the Spirit do the transforming.

Blessings.

Offline jabcat

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2009, 01:50:34 AM »
For me bro, the emphasis doesn't have to be on what you believe, but on who you love.  You both love God . . .and even if you don't, there's enough love in just one of God's kids that covers the whole household . . .(you and your houshold will be saved . . you can quote that one)

Jesus wasn't interested in doctrines as much as he was interested in relationships.  You plant your seeds and let her be.  Let her come to the water on her own terms.  If you try to do it any other way, you'll just be conforming someone to something that they're not ready for and that never has a pretty ending.

God's love is unconditional . .can you imagine that???  Even the people that took his son out . . . he still made accomodations for them.  It's not about a belief system.  Many here have stated and I truly appreciate they did . . .UR isn't what saves you or gets you into heaven.  Our centerpiece should never be about one strand of Truth.  It should always and forever be the source of Truth.  Enjoy her company and let the Spirit do the transforming.

Blessings.

And take that one to the bank  :thumbsup:   (I just realized Bro B_T....that saying may have a totally different meaning in Bulgaria...what it means here in the US, and what I mean, is I think the above is very good advice that you can count on)..maybe you learned a crazy new American saying today  :hihat:.  God's blessing, Brother.  Js.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 01:53:53 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Brian

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2009, 05:46:03 AM »
Well, I'm open and I share my beliefs, but they are viewed as nonsense.

We all experience that with just basic Christianity alone. Where did Jesus say it was going to be easy?
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Brian

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2009, 05:57:13 AM »
Quote
I'd personally bid her adieu, if it were me, if she could say something so blatantly blasphemous against the Blood by which I've been sanctified.

Quote
I can't leave her. I love her too much and God has already showed me that this is the person I'll spend my life with. Maybe God has a plan for her.
And she's not guilty. Her teachers and pastors are guilty in my opinion.

No one is guilty under the Blood of the Lamb.
There are just too many Brothers and Sisters out there whom I love with all my heart enough to willingly gladly die for, who don't believe/understand UR. Their shared love of Christ is all that matters. CHRIST AND CHRIST ALONE.
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Cardinal

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2009, 06:36:09 AM »
 :cloud9: Hey, B_T, tell your girlfriend the ultimate prayer for the dead involved Jesus and Lazarus. :winkgrin: Good thing no one told Him not to because it wasn't in their Bible.  :mshock: Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Brian

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2009, 07:00:01 AM »
If Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God that took away the sin of the world, according to John 1:29, then on what basis can we conclude that He's taken away any man's sin if John 1:29 is bullcrap and He didn't take away the sin of the world??

I'd personally bid her adieu, if it were me, if she could say something so blatantly blasphemous against the Blood by which I've been sanctified.

What conclusion is someone who reads Revelation 14:9-12 supposed to arrive at?

9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. NIV

9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. NSAB


9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, "Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10 must drink the wine of God's anger. It has been poured full strength into God's cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name."
12 This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus. NLT


9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. KJV


Personally I'm not going to accuse anyone of blasphemy for believeing what their Bible says point blank.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 07:06:23 AM by Brian »
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

Offline Sarah

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2009, 05:17:36 PM »
 If the Lord told you she is the one, their you have it. Anyway, just because you marry someone with the same belief system as yourself doesn't mean they will always believe that way. My husband and I haven't always been "on the same page". Part of marriage is to accept someone "as is", and also as "who they will become". If she knows Christ, she is becoming more like Him. Beliefs come and go, but a relationship with Christ is life-changing. I am not the same person I was when I got married and my beliefs have radically changed. That is why it is so awesome that the Lord gave you direction. Enjoy her!

Love, Sarah

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2009, 07:01:26 PM »


Everything is bullcrap!!    :laughing7:

Ec 1:2 Vanity of vanities, says the Assembler; Vanity of vanities, the whole is vanity.


Offline firstborn888

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2009, 10:23:55 AM »
My girl of 28 years thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)

And she says she may not have married me back in '81 if she knew my stance.

But it's really more about superficial (albeit deeply ingrained on some superficial level) teachings than reality. Almost everyone behaves as a universalist in the real day to day. :thumbsup:

Offline firstborn888

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2009, 10:25:18 AM »


Everything is bullcrap!!    :laughing7:


Or howabout "All non-bullcrap is bullcrap" Can we just go with that?  :laughing7:

Offline B_T

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2009, 12:14:36 PM »
Quote
My girl of 28 years thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)

And she says she may not have married me back in '81 if she knew my stance.

absolute indisputable proof of UR: granddaughters

Offline firstborn888

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2009, 10:25:46 AM »
Quote
My girl of 28 years thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)

And she says she may not have married me back in '81 if she knew my stance.

absolute indisputable proof of UR: granddaughters

That's right!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
There's the proof right in front of everyone's faces!

Offline sparrow

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2009, 08:02:12 PM »
For me bro, the emphasis doesn't have to be on what you believe, but on who you love.  You both love God . . .and even if you don't, there's enough love in just one of God's kids that covers the whole household . . .(you and your houshold will be saved . . you can quote that one)

Jesus wasn't interested in doctrines as much as he was interested in relationships.  You plant your seeds and let her be.  Let her come to the water on her own terms.  If you try to do it any other way, you'll just be conforming someone to something that they're not ready for and that never has a pretty ending.

God's love is unconditional . .can you imagine that???  Even the people that took his son out . . . he still made accomodations for them.  It's not about a belief system.  Many here have stated and I truly appreciate they did . . .UR isn't what saves you or gets you into heaven.  Our centerpiece should never be about one strand of Truth.  It should always and forever be the source of Truth.  Enjoy her company and let the Spirit do the transforming.

Blessings.

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

"Every knee shall bow..."
I love that. A long time ago, I read that and felt pretty freaked out. Every knee would bow and then half of those knees would go plummeting into hellfire...  :mshock:

now it's ..."every knee shall bow.." WOO HOO!!!  :happygrin: :happy3:

You don't knock someone to their knees and force them to bow...

Every knee SHALL bow. It's a promise. All will come to the beautiful, wonderful, happy truth.

Why do we humans always have to have things on OUR timetables?
every knee shall bow.
What difference does it make if it happens now or later or after a person dies?
It WILL happen.
Isn't that all we need to know?
Just keep that little happy nugget of information close to your heart and smile, and look at your loved one with the eyes of the future....see her future knees bowing and the mind-blowing happiness that will fill her heart. That vision is REAL. Because it WILL happen. God's promise, not mine. As much as we want others to see truth now, it's not up to us. It's their path. Smile and feel peace. Every knee shall bow. :)
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline chuckt

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2009, 03:47:48 PM »
Quote
What difference does it make if it happens now or later or after a person dies?

Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. 


chuckt
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Offline Nathan

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2009, 04:43:09 PM »
Quote
What difference does it make if it happens now or later or after a person dies?

Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. 


chuckt

Yes!  If salvation comes after we die . .it means we never came into the purpose God intended for us in this brief life on earth.  For me, that purpose is to manifest that which is invisible in "His" kingdom, here on the visible earthly kingdom.  And to reproduce his nature in others.  "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven . . ."  To come to Christ during this lifetime, is to fulfill the desire of the Father and complete Christ's prayer.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: My girl thinks that universalism is bullcrap :)
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2009, 04:49:32 PM »
 :cloud9: Hi Nathan.....Amen, it means that He was robbed of a body to manifest through, but even in that the thief was required to repay 7 times (smile) over.....His will is gonna be done no matter what......and just thought I'd point out, that prayer says IN earth (ours) as it is in heaven......Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor