Author Topic: How to let go of ET?  (Read 2172 times)

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Offline Captain.Theophilus

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How to let go of ET?
« on: February 03, 2014, 05:18:05 PM »
I think I believe in UR, it's supported in the Bible, but I'm having a hard time letting go of ET. I feel like when I do my motivation for obedience disappears. Now don't tell me that if that's my only motivation that is a bad thing, I know it's a bad thing that my motivation is motivated by the threat of evil befalling me. I know that true obedience comes out of love, not fear.  :sigh:

I just don't know how to let go of it. I hope, want, and trust that UR is probably true, but I seem unable to give myself over entirely to the idea. I know that in order to, I need to understand that God loves everyone equally and need to escape from the "fear-culture" of obedience Christianity that has been impressed upon me since a child. I feel like if God can't condemn some people if he wants, then doesn't that make him a weakling?  :dontknow:

What is righteous anger? I feel that anger is a natural emotion, and good at some times. The anger that I would feel if my wife was being raped. I couldn't promise the man raping her would come out alive. What kind of anger does God have towards us when we do evil? Can he be angry and still satisfy his anger without sending everyone to Hell? If he wouldn't send anyone to Hell anyway, then why do we need Jesus? Why must there be a propitiation for his anger? But if he needed Jesus' death to forgive us our sins, then does that mean without Jesus that Hell could exist as a real possibility? What would be the punishment for us apart from Jesus' death, where would we end?

Does it matter? Was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world? If he was slain before the foundation of the world, maybe forgiveness in Jesus was as good as done before Adam even sinned.

I guess what I am asking is what is the real possibility of our end WITHOUT Jesus. If Hell doesn't exist, where would we go if Jesus hadn't come? Limbo? How do I find scriptural support for the theoretical possibility of Jesus' incarnation never happening resulting in our... what? Total end? Annihilation? Purgatory? What would happen? How can I support it from scripture?

I'm assuming that we all believe Jesus' death was really propitious, and not merely a symbol of some kind. I feel like apart from the necessity of the Cross, Christianity crumbles, and yet what is the necessity of the Cross if there is no anger? But if there is righteous anger on God's part, then what would our end be without the cross?  :eek:
"Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: "What! You too? I thought I was the only one."
― C.S. Lewis

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2014, 05:51:03 PM »
Dear Capt' please do not listen to your mind, or the little voices within of reason that you  likely hear that question and doubt  everything, but rather listen to seemgingly imperceptable voice of your heart.

Seth wrote a wonderful post on why Jesus died for us. I do not believe that it was for any payment of sin. For this would suggest that Father would not be complete nor perfect until the payment was recieved. Also, if you look at the big picture. ET teaches thst Father created man perfectly, but missed a serious flaw. Satan exploited that flaw, and humans have fallen into the birthright of sin ever since.

Now they say Father demands payment  so Jesus offered himself. Now Fathers perfect Son can only undo what Satan started, ONLY IF sinful deprived mankind acknowledge Christ with their lips.

Satan wins, Jesus acheives nothing as the grand shepherd loses most of his flock and Father is made look a FOOL. FIRST for creating an inferior product and SECOND being unable to rectify it. Satan wins, by doing nothing but laugh.

Isn't this the most saddest story you have ever heard :sigh:

If this story is true, then Father has NO justice, for how is He justified in demanding payment from His screwup and dooming millions to a firey death as Satan gloats in sheer delight.

Read all of this very carefully Capt' as this is the playbook of the ET church.

Jesus died to prove that death is an illusion, for no one is dead to Father .

Look very deep into your heart and see that Love could never do such a thing. Fear destroys what LOVE creates.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: February 03, 2014, 05:55:43 PM by JulieTang84 »
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2014, 06:05:55 PM »
Of course I have had many ETers ask me: "What if I am wrong?"

I answer with: "What if you are, for it is you who are making Father into a monster, not I."

LOVE Julie  :HeartThrob:
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Seth

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2014, 09:43:57 PM »
I think I believe in UR, it's supported in the Bible, but I'm having a hard time letting go of ET. I feel like when I do my motivation for obedience disappears. Now don't tell me that if that's my only motivation that is a bad thing, I know it's a bad thing that my motivation is motivated by the threat of evil befalling me. I know that true obedience comes out of love, not fear.  :sigh:

I just don't know how to let go of it. I hope, want, and trust that UR is probably true, but I seem unable to give myself over entirely to the idea. I know that in order to, I need to understand that God loves everyone equally and need to escape from the "fear-culture" of obedience Christianity that has been impressed upon me since a child. I feel like if God can't condemn some people if he wants, then doesn't that make him a weakling?  :dontknow:

I went through these emotions too. I had accepted the truth of UR on an intellectual level, but it took time for my emotions to come into check. I was at least 6 months before my fear and just the feeling of oddness at having such a dramatic paradigm shift in my beliefs to subside and be replaced with peace and reverence.

In answer to that last question, yes God can condemn anyone he wants. This isn't about "can" or "cannot" with God. It's about WILL or WON'T he, according to the Scriptures. He won't condemn everyone forever, simply because the Scriptures confirm this. It will take time for that to sink in. It did for me. It took a long time.

Here are some more answers to your questions:

Quote
What is righteous anger? I feel that anger is a natural emotion, and good at some times. The anger that I would feel if my wife was being raped. I couldn't promise the man raping her would come out alive. What kind of anger does God have towards us when we do evil?

God's anger is not the same as human anger. Our anger is filtered through a flesh that we have no mastery over until God gives that to us. God is Spirit. His anger does not overcome him the way it does with us. In fact, I don't believe we can yet truly understand how God experiences "emotion," but it's not flesh based like our own. The Bible reveals his wrath to be focused on his plan, and everything he does is about getting his plan fulfilled. Sometimes that means people experience his wrath, but this is to humble the proud. His aim is to humble the world before him, and humility is the best of things.

Quote
Can he be angry and still satisfy his anger without sending everyone to Hell? If he wouldn't send anyone to Hell anyway, then why do we need Jesus?

This scripture shows what satisfies God's anger.

Jeremaiah 23:19-20
Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in FURY, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, UNTIL he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.


As a studying Christian, all you need to do now is to study the scripture to find out what the "thoughts of his heart" and you will see the fruit of his anger. Watch this:

Daniel 4:35,37
All the people of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does what he pleases with powers of heaven and peoples of earth, no one may hold back his hand or say to him "what have you done?".Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the king of heaven because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk with pride, he is able to humble.


So his grievous whirlwind will be satisfied when everyone is humble. And being humble is a Godly trait.


Quote
I guess what I am asking is what is the real possibility of our end WITHOUT Jesus. If Hell doesn't exist, where would we go if Jesus hadn't come? Limbo? How do I find scriptural support for the theoretical possibility of Jesus' incarnation never happening resulting in our... what? Total end? Annihilation? Purgatory? What would happen? How can I support it from scripture?

We would be dead. Death is the result of sin, both in this life and in the grave. That's what God warned Adam would happen through disobedience: death. When someone hates his brother and walks in sin, he is spiritually dead while physically alive.

Quote
I'm assuming that we all believe Jesus' death was really propitious, and not merely a symbol of some kind. I feel like apart from the necessity of the Cross, Christianity crumbles, and yet what is the necessity of the Cross if there is no anger? But if there is righteous anger on God's part, then what would our end be without the cross?  :eek:

Jesus said that the Cross is the judgment of the world. The Cross represents the death of the flesh, which everyone will experience because Christ purchased everyone at the Cross with a price. Therefore, God's wrath is focused on putting our flesh to death, both in a spiritual and physical way. When Christ gives us his Life, it puts our carnal nature to death. That's the Cross at work. The Cross will encompass the whole world in due time when everyone is humbled.

I have a paper that might help put all these pieces together for you if you are interested. I know it's alot to ask someone to take time out of their day to read a paper, but I believe it could really help you.

The Judgment of the World by the Cross

Offline JulieTang84

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2014, 12:38:46 AM »
Father cannot feel anger as humans do as Seth said, for Father is PURE LOVE, LIGHT and TRUTH. Oh and being SPIRIT, in which ALL things exist. There is NOTHING HE lacks.

Oh yes, we, His children (all except his Christ) severely fall short in many things, but with careful study, we realize that it is by design and for want or even lack of it, no one comes to either Christ or Father without Father loosening the veil that binds ones heart (spiritual eyes and ears)

We must be very careful in our reading of the Hebrew Scriptures. Paul gives warning as such:

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. - (2Cr 3:13-18)

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

The Love that becomes ones life is beyond description. Ones WHOLE LIFE CHANGES and NOTHING is the same. One becomes immersed in a peace that could calm almost anything, and the Light of the Spirit brings everything to Life.
 

Love is all this and more....for it is Fathers LOVE for His children and to His children. Father is LOVE.

1 John 4:8 (NIV)
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (NIV)
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Father is also Spirit:

John 4;24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

WHAT John is saying here, reiterates the words of Paul earlier, when he said:  "with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image" Which is the Spiritual image of Father

All who are undergoing the transformation into a Spiritual being must also produce the fruits and the fruits of the Spirit are many:

Galatians 5:22-23 (NIV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

This now brings us to Fathers LIGHT  :dsunny:

There is absolutely NO DARKNESS in Father whatsoever. Father is LIGHT!!!!  :dsunny:

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

We can take so much from the last Scripture. We all (I assume) know what it is like to be Angry, Sad even some of us, Depressed - They all have a few things in common:

a) A lack of Light
b) An absence of Love (giving)
c) No Peace

Truly I could no more place an ant on a hot plate than hold my own hand. I would rather hold my own hand to do something so cruel. You see, if you take everything I have presented and meditate on them. There can be nothing what we understand as Anger, Retribution, Payment, etc. Because, if Father is more Perfect by many millions or trillions of powers than lil' me. Father would be sadistic to be able to perform the acts the ET belief believe he will perform.

On top of this: Any who even CONSIDERS He "might" or "could" do such a thing (as we Understand it) lack the gift of Love, Light and Spirit. I think most don't condone the ET belief, they are just too afraid to say so.

We should not hate them for this, as Father has sent them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie. (2 Thes 2:11)

With much Love, Julie  :HeartThrob: 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 01:26:54 AM by JulieTang84 »
Don't Forget LOVE.

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2014, 04:24:38 AM »


But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. - (2Cr 3:13-18)




In just the same way, when your pastor preaches Eternal Torment, the veil covers your heart and mind, does it not?  It used to with me, let me tell you.  However, if you turn away from that, and toward the Truth of Universal Reconciliation (not to mention other Biblical Truths which free your heart and mind), then the veil comes off, you can think more clearly, your emotions are more pure, and your vision opens up to a greater God and a more glorious existence.  Is this not what Jesus came to do for us, to give us life, and abundantly so?  :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline Captain.Theophilus

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2014, 06:15:52 AM »
Julie,

I would be remiss to listen to my heart and not my mind, as my mind is the only reason I escaped ET in the first place.
"Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: "What! You too? I thought I was the only one."
― C.S. Lewis

Offline Captain.Theophilus

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2014, 06:20:30 AM »
Thank you Seth for the article on judgment. It is not a lot to ask me to read an article! I came on here seeking advice and I am very thankful for your help
"Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: "What! You too? I thought I was the only one."
― C.S. Lewis

Offline Captain.Theophilus

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2014, 03:00:44 PM »
No, I'm not giving all the credit to my mind. Of course it was the Father who showed me. I'm telling you that without my ability to use critical thinking I never would have realized why ET can't make sense.

Yes, God uses critical thinking to show you stuff too, not just feelings. I can't help but feel I'm being rebuked, and I'm not sure what has warranted it. Definitely will think twice before sharing my heart on here again.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 03:10:22 PM by Captain.Theophilus »
"Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: "What! You too? I thought I was the only one."
― C.S. Lewis

Offline Seth

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2014, 05:45:16 PM »
Thank you Seth for the article on judgment. It is not a lot to ask me to read an article! I came on here seeking advice and I am very thankful for your help

No problem. Part One sets a foundation, but Part 2 really gets into the issues you raised about Hell, the Lake of Fire etc. You'll find a scriptural explanation for them all, and you can determine if it makes scriptural sense.  :friendstu:

Offline sheila

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2014, 06:08:55 PM »
there is a healthy godly fear,Captain T........  I pray He gift you with it,a perfect present from above.....

   Jude 1;22   be merciful to those who doubt,snatch other's from the fire and save them;

   TO OTHER'S SHOW MERCY MIXED WITH FEAR-hating even the clothing stained b corrupted

 flesh.

     one thing I've discovered..is He most certainl does discipline.  and yet...I am even comforted

 in that...that He not abandon me to go my own way to destruction.

   at times in m life I have prayed with thanks and gratitude..that He cared enough to 'correct me'

 and save me from my own foolishness.other times..I have cried out like David 'please do not

take away your Holy spirit from me..in fear.

  now some..He does turn over to satan for the destruction of the flesh[a terrible correction]

  in order that the spirit be saved on the da of the Lord. if the do not heed Him.......

  and like with natural children.....fear of abandomnent and rejection by the parent..is very

traumatizing. Isaaih 5;7,8  for a breif moment I abandoned you,but with deep compassion

 I will bring ou back. In a surge of anger,I hid m face from ou for a moment,but with evrlasting

kindness I will have compassion on you....'My God,M God,why have you forsaken me"..being

given over to death is horrendous...that is the tasting of death..the death that Christ tasted

 for every man on the cross....the feeling of abandonment and rejection.


   I have found..that I can 'lay down m life/die' if I know He loves me. But I have also found

  the thought of death with His anger is too much for me to bear. His love for me gives me

strength to meet and overcome 'that last enemy/death"

      O' death where is thy sting?...for He shall be death's plague

     SOS 8;6 Place me like a seal over your heart,like a seal on your arm..for love is as strong

as death..it's jealous unyeilding as the grave[Rev 7 the sealing/Rev 9 fifth trumpet foreheads

 sealed]heart/mind/arm...since we can not trust our own mind,our own heart..our own arm

to deliver ourselves...I invite you[as He does] to trust in HIS MIND,HISHEART,HIS POWER

   we need this  TRUST..to face that last enemy..'Father,into your hands I deliver m spirit"

  yes,Zion is carved into His palms...it is the work of God....and not man.
   



 

Offline Seth

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2014, 06:16:38 PM »
Amen Sheila  :iagree:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2014, 06:52:23 PM »
Julie,

I would be remiss to listen to my heart and not my mind, as my mind is the only reason I escaped ET in the first place.

Ones heart and mind are the same.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Seth

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2014, 09:35:54 PM »
No, I'm not giving all the credit to my mind. Of course it was the Father who showed me. I'm telling you that without my ability to use critical thinking I never would have realized why ET can't make sense.

Yes, God uses critical thinking to show you stuff too, not just feelings. I can't help but feel I'm being rebuked, and I'm not sure what has warranted it. Definitely will think twice before sharing my heart on here again.

HI Captain,
I hope you don't hesitate to share and ask things around here. I don't think Julie meant any harm, but forums are tricky places to communicate, because words on a screen can come across in ways not intended by the writer.

 :friendstu:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2014, 10:59:16 PM »
The only offering I made was that the mind and the heart are the same.
As for the ET thing, should any one, ANY ONE, find love and forgiveness in the blasphemous teaching of eternal torment or annihilation then I, personally, that's me, have no idea how they got such a thought other than from theologians, sects, denominations, which are but the writings from the imaginations of men's hearts(minds) who have given no thought to what the Bible teaches, but only the thinking of a vendetta.

Col 1:18  And himself is the head of the body--the assembly--who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things --himself--first,
Col 1:19  because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle,
Col 1:20  and through him to reconcile the all things to himself--having made peace through the blood of his cross--through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline watchman1706

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2014, 01:48:30 AM »
I think to simplify it for you captain just remember this. Hell does not exist in the bible. The word doesn't exist, either in the old or new testament writing in greek or hebrew. It's an english word from the saxon. It is beyond me how a non existent word in a late translation of the bible through multiple language translations should have gained so much power. It is utterly ridiculous. Putting your faith in such foolishness is no different than walking in the emperors new invisible clothes. You will end up naked, wanting and out in the cold. 

 :banana: :banana: :banana:

Offline micah7:9

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2014, 02:37:10 AM »
One should not under estimate the illusions and delusions that the human heart(mind) can whoop up to attempt to sway the human heart (mind) for profit; to play on human guilt is a supreme dollar maker it being, yes, it's the weakest link (guilt) that the human struggles with. That weakness can be pushed and manipulated like clay(ha but it is but a pun.)  :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Blackstar11

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2014, 07:13:03 PM »


"Dear Capt' please do not listen to your mind, or the little voices within of reason that you  likely hear that question and doubt  everything, but rather listen to seemgingly imperceptable voice of your heart."

Great advice!  :dsunny:

Offline Warhawk17

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2014, 06:59:48 PM »
I understand how you feel too. As overjoyed as I was when I started reading this site, I spent the next few months experiencing a wide range of emotions and remained fearful and confused at times due to such a great paradigm shift. Even though I am still young, it was difficult to let go of everything I was taught by the Catholic church. I also understand how hard it is for someone who is older and has spent their entire life in a sect. My parents and especially my grandparents are strongly set in their ways after sitting in the pews every Sunday and holiday their whole lives. But you've just gotta keep searching the scriptures and let God reveal things to you and don't rely much on what you heard in sermons.

Offline Jock

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2014, 04:40:31 PM »
Hey Capt

Just a two cent's worth. I was involved with some pretty radical groups but managed to escape the last one. They all preached Hell, and when I left, I was terrified, I thought that God was going to snuff me and my wife. I even tried to check into a mental hospital so that they would zap me up with drugs to get rid of this horrendous fear.

A brother wrote to me and gave me this verse,

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?

He also reminded me that any spirit/voice that brings fear and threats is NEVER the Christ like Spirit. So, what I hear nowadays I hold it up to that scrutiny. Hang in there mate.  :winkgrin:

Shalom

Jock. :Peace2:

Offline ed

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2014, 05:33:13 PM »
Hey Capt

Just a two cent's worth. I was involved with some pretty radical groups but managed to escape the last one. They all preached Hell, and when I left, I was terrified, I thought that God was going to snuff me and my wife. I even tried to check into a mental hospital so that they would zap me up with drugs to get rid of this horrendous fear.

A brother wrote to me and gave me this verse,

Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the LORD require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?

He also reminded me that any spirit/voice that brings fear and threats is NEVER the Christ like Spirit. So, what I hear nowadays I hold it up to that scrutiny. Hang in there mate.  :winkgrin:

Shalom

Jock. :Peace2:

Great post.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

God give what God is.

I'm in a time of correcting too, and am loving it.  I'm not in control.  I'm not fixing myself.  God is faithful.

.

Offline rrich7

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2014, 06:07:23 AM »
Ahoy Capiton !  :girlheart:

I understand what you're saying as I was also raised in an E.T church.  The E.T still lingers a bit within me but when those thoughts creep in, I remember LOVE prevails, God's victory has already been won! You are going to get through this! Have faith. You were BATHED in E.T teachings which after hearing it all your life can weigh heavily on your mind & because you are used to motivation based on fear that has become the "norm" for you. This is going to be a transitioning process, you're gonna have to let God work on you & get you to a new state of thinking & into a new norm. However we are also told to study the word in depth so it does not hurt to ask questions & search for truth. Just pray to God that the Holy Spirit gives you guidance, whether you're studying on your own or getting the opinions of those of us here.

I find it easiest when I think of the entire relationship between God & mankind as a 'perfect' parent & his imperfect children. Our sinful flesh & the author of confusion definitely will cause some doubt & confusion (look what a mess has been caused with mainstream Christianity). However sometimes relating things to an easily relateable human emotion can help one better understand something. Not everyone has been a parent but we've all been children so keep that in mind while you read the following.

A 'perfect' parent is loving, forgiveness is UN-ENDING even though they get angry with us. When we don't heed their warnings, they have do dish out their 'righteous anger' or I like to say loving punishment, to correct us. The punishment is not out of anger, but more out of love, to teach us that their are consequences for our actions, to help us understand that we should not do whatever we did again, because when we hurt they hurt, they don't want to see us struggle or in pain (who would want to see someone they love suffer), however it is necessary to the learning process, to hopefully help them become a well & rounded adult.

Now take that principle & apply it to a truly perfect being, God who IS love & His purpose for mankind.  He knew the outcome of this world before He started creation on day one (the following scripture proves this), everything was pre-ordained, including the fall, for some purpose.

Isaiah 46:10-11
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, `My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.


 Adam was not made complete, but made like a new born babe. Innocent, intelligent, but not really having an understanding of good & evil, if he did have that knowledge then eating the fruit would of made no difference in him.  As a curious child does not heed the warning of the parent out of curiosity, neither did Adam. Therefore everyone after Adam fell, by no fault or choice of our own we were destined to be born into a sinful flesh.

Why? What I get from the scripture in reference again to being a parent & child, is experience. Good & evil has to be learned by experience.  Taking a science approach, for every action there is an equal & opposite reaction.

For each sin we commit, we will pay! The bible is clear on this. However is it fair that for a limited life of sin one must spend an unlimited time in conscious torment? When parents dish out their punishments to their children the punishment normally reflects the seriousness of the wrong doing does it not?

I believe the way God inspired the word & Jesus spoke of Him as Father or Daddy, was to help us understand the correlation between a father & parent, but in God's case its in a perfect sense of a parent child relationship.

I guess what I am asking is what is the real possibility of our end WITHOUT Jesus. If Hell doesn't exist, where would we go if Jesus hadn't come? Limbo? How do I find scriptural support for the theoretical possibility of Jesus' incarnation never happening resulting in our... what? Total end? Annihilation? Purgatory? What would happen? How can I support it from scripture?

As Seth said death, but if I understand you're asking what would come after death. You won't find any biblical support on any other possibility of afterlife other than what is in the bible & Honestly Cap, I wouldn't focus on the question because God already paved a way for mankind. A loving God wouldn't put us in a hopeless, pointless situation like this & God is love is He not?? God's plan was NEVER going to fail, HE will become All in All and create the perfect family and it was F U L L P R O O F. In fact the victory has already been won!  :cloud9: :cloud9: Asking what coulda, woulda happened is unnecessary, you're delving into a matter that is apart from the word of God & I think it would do more harm than good trying to discover the answer. God said 'I will fight for you! You need only be still!' HE WILL HE WILL HE WILL as a matter of fact HE HAS! Isn't that wonderful. Just have faith & even if its the grain of a mustard seed, that is a great start! There is no what if with God because what He says, He WILL do & He is extremely clear on that:

Isaiah 14:24
The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,

Isaiah 55:11
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His will

Job 42:2
"I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.

Proverbs 19:21
Many plans are in a man's heart, But the counsel of the LORD will stand

Daniel 4:35
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, `What have You done?'


Blessings & Love On Your Journey,
  God is working on all of us & we're all here to support each other! :HeartThrob:  :friendstu:
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 06:27:58 AM by rrich7 »
Love Never Fails : Yes My God Never Fails. The battle has been WON!

From Him and through Him and to Him are ALL things.

Offline anti_nietzsche

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Re: How to let go of ET?
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2014, 03:43:21 PM »
I prefer to read the Gospels as a story. Of a son of God who rather accepted his own death than create another human kingdom on Earth. Forgiving even his executors and betrayers. The words in the story don't matter that much, they are not there as a manual but as bits and pieces of what people remembered many years after Jesus' going away. Often I think the man Jesus disappears behind the bible, but it is this man Jesus that we're interested in, not the whole bodies of theology and literature that people wrote about him in terms of doctrine and dogma. One good idea of the last century was that we needed a personal relationship with Jesus. Some kind of life with Him, which is different from bible study and going in theological circles all the time. Living with God and my neighbor, in love, without all the strange worries about afterlife and so on. To that end, and also because of a simple and straightforward idea of supreme justice, I believe in universalism. I have atheistic family and friends cannot believe they won't end up with God as well as christians do. God doesn't draw lines in the sand and tell us, if you cross them, I'll beat you up. There was a good theologian, sorry I forgot his name, who said that believers should practice to say, "god above god", ie always remembering that God is higher than us, and seeing an ever-increasing magnitude of goodness in that highness. 

For your daily life, I recommend looking a bit into zen philosophies. You need to get an idea of how arbitrary and senseless violence and anger are, and that a God has other means to exercise his plans than just follow these worldly ways. God actually says in Jeremiah that His ways are above ours, His thoughts are higher, and so on. This doesn't mean that when God thinks of a war, we now have to revere war as a higher way. It means that God has higher ways to do his things than requiring a war. Such thoughts lead us to make more use of Jesus' will for us, love for enemies and all that. It's an invitation not to lowly slavery but to a higher way of life.