Marriage

[Diane]

To the woman He said:
      "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
      In pain you shall bring forth children;
      Your desire shall be for your husband,
      And he shall rule over you." Gen 3:16

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'  God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."  And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. Matt 22:29-33

but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1Cor 7:9

It looks to me from these verses that heterosexual marriage became perverted in the fall, is not for those who believe in the resurrection of the dead and not for those who have self-control.  So who's to say that homosexual marriage is any more out of order than is heterosexual marriage? 

[Michele]

Hi Diane....IMHO in the resurrection all things are one in Christ....so there is no desire nor need for marriage.......when all things are already married together as One in Spirit. 

[Diane]

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:23-26

"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me." John 17:20,21

Aren't those of us who now believe in Christ "already married together as One in Spirit?"

[Michele]

Aren't those of us who now believe in Christ "already married together as One in Spirit?"

Yeah I agree Diane, but the flesh is weak....God knows our struggles and knows our desires......

[Diane]

Isn't it great to have such a grace filled God!

[Michele]

Isn't it great to have such a grace filled God!

Yep, it sure is!!

[Pierac]

So who's to say that homosexual marriage is any more out of order than is heterosexual marriage?

 

God does! and that's just the way it is no matter what you or I want to think!


Paul

[Diane]

As I read the texts, God says both are out of order.  I'm not aware of any hierarchy of disorders.

[jabcat]

There are other scriptures that address both, and taken within context, heterosexual marriage is indeed "blessed" (at least as an acceptable option), whereas Paul quite clearly denounces homosexual relationships.

[jabcat]

To note a few examples;  heterosexual--woman/man leave mother/home cleave to each other, husbands love your wives as Christ loves the ecclesia, better to marry...;  homosexual--burning in lusts with one another, leaving natural affection man/w man woman w/woman, God gave over to reprobate mind, doing that which is unseemly....

[Reverend G]

Sticky subject!!

I can't find myself supporting homosexual marriage.  I also am aware of scripture that does condemn homosexuality.  Yet, I do feel we all will be ultimately reconciled to Him, homosexuals included.  My personal take is that homosexuality is wrong, with scriptural support for that idea, and I cannot give sanction to such things knowing that it is wrong.  Same sex marriage is extreme sanction of this behavior.  Regardless of our ultimate ends, I must attempt (imperfectly) to do as He would have done, hence to reinforce improper behavior such as this would be wrong.

[Diane]

I'm not suggesting that there wasn't same gender sexual behavior going on that Paul and OT writers condemned.  There was also opposite gender sexual behavior that they condemned.   Since sex was used to lord-it-over it's no wonder patriarchal societies would forbid a man to lie with a man as with a woman.   None of it was in the context of committed, long term, monogamous relationships.  For me it's a stretch to apply those texts to such relationships. 

Is anyone aware of any society that has had legally sanctioned same sex marriages?  Doesn't that create a kind of catch 22?  The history of marriage and the church's involvement in it is a very interesting read.

[martincisneros]

It looks to me from these verses that heterosexual marriage....is not for those who believe in the resurrection of the dead......So who's to say that homosexual marriage is any more out of order than is heterosexual marriage? 

I genuinely don't follow how you arrived at these conclusions from a Scripture where the Pharisees were asking a question of Jesus about whether or not marital bonds were still obligatory in the resurrection state.  Paul addresses this same thing in Romans 7:1-3 in saying that if a husband or a wife dies, then you're freed from marital obligations to them.  And though the Scriptures you've cited don't touch specifically on homosexuality, as has already been said in this thread, it's forbidden by both parts of the Bible, Old and New Testament.  Some people try to cite Galatians 3 about there being no male nor female in Christ, but there's nothing about that chapter that's talking about marriage.  It's specifically talking about equality with regards to rights in the Biblical covenant with God through Jesus Christ.  Just because women were and still are severely limited in their rights in the middle east, that doesn't mean that it'll always be that way for them if they've embraced the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Being single is generally more preferable in the context of a more intimate relationship with the Lord.  It's not a matter of having self control in yourself and having self control just for the sake of having self control or to be able to claim pompously (like some do) that they have self control and have no romantic needs.  It's a matter of having a richer relationship with the Lord and being more easily freed to follow His purposes for one's life.  Contextually, 1Corinthians chapter 7 was saying that it's best not to marry if you can avoid it because the world that St. Paul was speaking to was ending.  While he was speaking to many Gentiles in that crowd, he was likewise speaking to many Jews.  I know this from the 11th and 14th chapters where he was dealing with keeping women more peaceable in a synogogue type setting where the men sat on one side of the isle and the women sat across from the men while the Rabbi would be at the front addressing the segregated congregation that was divided right down the middle between the men and the women.  Women would occaisionally, and particularly in a Christian context be talking to the men on the other side of the isle and they'd be compromising the quality of the service and of the instruction for everybody when there was a traveling teacher or Apostle present that had limited time on his hands for sharing the Word before it was time to hit the next city.  With too many of those types of distractions, then the residing pastor/rabbi would be no better for having had the guest speaker and the immediate future of the congregation wouldn't be taken to a new level of edification, understanding, sanctification, and more fruitful works from what was shared.

Anyway, in this context of speaking 1Corinthians chapter 7 to a partially Jewish audience, he was saying "the world's about to end."  And their world did end in 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem.  He was addressing that crisis that was immediately on the horizon for the Jewish Christians of his day.  So, only if you believe in a premillenial view of Bible prophecy that says that Jesus could come back at any second and everything will immediately go to hell either immediately afterwards or slightly before -- only in that kind of context would St. Paul's comments in 1Corinthians chapter 7 be all of that relevant about "it's better not to marry, unless you're going to be driven to distraction by the opposite sex!"  It's a timeless truth in one sense, but a more practical truth only in that setting.  And St. Paul did say that he wasn't trying to be burdensome by saying that, but was thinking of the people that he was speaking to.  So, it wasn't something to be attained to or anything like that.  Just something to think about depending on one's personal beliefs about what the near future holds for them, and how committed they are to experiencing the deepest possible walk with the Lord without the luggage of a high maintenance relationship on the side that jacks with when you can fast, when you can this or that, how long you're up at night praying, spending time in the Word, or just in Stillness with the Holy Spirit.

[Diane]

It looks to me from these verses that heterosexual marriage....is not for those who believe in the resurrection of the dead......So who's to say that homosexual marriage is any more out of order than is heterosexual marriage? 

I genuinely don't follow how you arrived at these conclusions from a Scripture where the Pharisees were asking a question of Jesus about whether or not marital bonds were still obligatory in the resurrection state.

Why did Jesus bring in the fact that God is not God of the dead but of the living?  I think it's because he was talking to Sadducees who didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead and thought eternal life was obtained through having children which was their purpose for marriage.  With that purpose removed the reason for marriage is removed.  That's how I see the way that exchange fits is with the other scriptures to bring me to my conclusions.

Paul addresses this same thing in Romans 7:1-3 in saying that if a husband or a wife dies, then you're freed from marital obligations to them.

 

I don't see that what Paul said is related to what Jesus said.

And though the Scriptures you've cited don't touch specifically on homosexuality,

They are on marriage and how it was messed up in the fall, misunderstood by the Sadducees, and no longer a plus for those in Christ.

it's forbidden by both parts of the Bible, Old and New Testament.

The scriptures that are used to say homosexuality is forbidden, speak to specific behaviors.  With the NT scriptures there's disagreement as to exactly what that behavior was.  All of that leads me to conclude that we are not in a position to say that same sex marriage is forbidden in scripture.

[jabcat]

To the woman He said:
      "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
      In pain you shall bring forth children;
      Your desire shall be for your husband,
      And he shall rule over you." Gen 3:16

Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'  God is not the God of the dead, but of the living."  And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. Matt 22:29-33

but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1Cor 7:9

It looks to me from these verses that heterosexual marriage became perverted in the fall, is not for those who believe in the resurrection of the dead and not for those who have self-control.  So who's to say that homosexual marriage is any more out of order than is heterosexual marriage? 

passage #1)  "pain, desire, rule over you"...nothing about marriage, per se, but about woman's "lot" in life...addressing her pain, emotions, and situation (especially true during the culture of "Bible times")

passage #2)  addressing "fleshly" desires, needs, the "natural" things God gave us...there will be no need for those things in our immortality, in our immortal bodies, when we have put off mortality...not in God's plan then as it is now and down through the ages until resurrection

passage #3)  Paul giving "permission" to marry...I don't believe he would have done so were it not according to God's will...conversely, he did not give permission to homosexual relations


Is there something Diane that you want to see because it suits your purposes somehow, or are you honestly seeing what you're stating when looking at the whole context of scripture without a personal bias?  There are many times I've wanted scripture to say something or "allow" something because I thought it would then suit me better and/or allow me to do what I either was already doing or wanted to do.  IMO, however, we are to be conformed to God's truths and will, not the other way around.  Or maybe you're honestly just really understanding the scriptures to say what you're saying.  I personally don't believe a thorough, honest dividing of and Spirit revelation of scripture supports that view at all.  We can share with each other and God can use that, but in the end, only God veils and reveals.  He's still got a lot to show me :). 

[Mickiel]

[quote author=Diane link=


The scriptures that are used to say homosexuality is forbidden, speak to specific behaviors.  With the NT scriptures there's disagreement as to exactly what that behavior was.  All of that leads me to conclude that we are not in a position to say that same sex marriage is forbidden in scripture.

[/quote]


I am curious. If a woman really loves her dog, do you see any problem in scripture with her marrying an animal?

Peace.

[jabcat]

Don't want to skip over Mickiel's interesting question, but here are some other thoughts on the subject; 

Romans 1:26-27: "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another...this passage to this point is not talking about "specific, debatable behaviors"...it is talking about lust, desire, for the same sex...and that being against nature (or God's creation)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor *homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."   

*In this passage Paul coined this specific word for homosexuality.  It is made up of two Greek words: "arsane," meaning male, and "koite," meaning couch or bed.  Many of the terms at that time described not so much homosexual people but homosexual acts or behaviors.  If Paul had used any of those terms, those would have been limiting terms. ... In this instance he was going for a broad condemnation of any erotic male-male contact.   (per Joe Dallas, ex-gay member of Metropolitan Community Church and former homosexual activist, now provides scripturally-based lectures on homosexuality)

In Matthew 19:5-9 Jesus  defines marriage as being between one man and one woman...man, woman, cleave together, one flesh...

IMO, anything else is just a stretch.

[97531]

While I do not condone homosexuality, I do not judge it either.  For me the genitals are well designed and fit for purpose and the one compliments the other as nature intended.

It is very easy to judge based from a "normal" heterosexual POV being married and all and being sexually satisfied for lack of a better word.  Yet there are cases where folk have lets say inclinations of the opposite sex and are "born with the wrong parts"

I do not know what makes a gay person tick and what causes it specifically.  It is ironic that the the biggest homo bashers tend to be the very ones that have perverse leanings in that direction and preach their own weaknesses - there was a recent case of a mega preacher in the USA that turned out to have both abused female and male members of his congregation.

I always wondered if the woman caught - caught is really catch phrase pun intended - was a homo what would Jesus' reaction have been then?

Unless folk back then did it like dogs in the street, I am not sure how one would determine if one was committing adultery or carrying out homosexual acts.  I am sure folk were as discrete as they are today and in light of the laws of the religious sex police, they would have surely done this in secret?

At the end of the day, this sin is singled out as the worst sin yet we all know that sin is sin.  Seeing Jesus did not have an issue hanging out with the prostitutes of the day, I am sure that He would treat the matter differently.  He sees the heart, we tend to see the flesh.  No matter how despicable it appears to us, we really cannot judge it. 

Gossiping is an equally bad sin yet few folk have problems with that - why?  Everyone does it.

It is amazing how folk that judge homosexuality change their POV when it happens to one of their own siblings.

In closing - at the end of the day, the norm is as nature intended male - female, what opposes nature I will not judge as I truly do not know what makes these folk tick and what causes this to happen.

Blessings

[martincisneros]

In closing - at the end of the day, the norm is as nature intended male - female, what opposes nature I will not judge as I truly do not know what makes these folk tick and what causes this to happen.

People do a lot of things that I don't understand.  When I used to work in the grocery industry, I used to see stuff [all the time] that would just make me smile, blush really hard, and shake my head thinking, "Well, people are just people where ever ya go!"

[jabcat]

We are actually all a mess, each in our own ways   .

I understand scripture to teach us not to judge, we all sin, sin is sin (I do plenty), Jesus died for it/us all, Jesus loves sinners and we are to do so as well.   Scripture also teaches us wrt marriage and what Paul teaches wrt homosexuality. 

We are given scripture as a lamp unto our feet, to show us the way...the balance of scripture is to love and to teach truth as God reveals it by His Spirit.  There's a "straight and narrow way that leads to life". 

The poor soul, lost, wounded, and now finding themselves in the trap of sin and despair, needs someone to lovingly point them to a better way.  Jesus loved, forgave, and accepted the sexually indiscriminate woman, but He also instructed her to "go and sin no more".   IMO, the balance of The Word, in action.

[Diane]

Is there something Diane that you want to see because it suits your purposes somehow, or are you honestly seeing what you're stating when looking at the whole context of scripture without a personal bias? 

I have no reason to want to see it that way.  I am a 66yr old woman with a good marriage that is in its 45th year with no homosexuals in my immediate family.   I do honestly see it that way in the context of the whole of scripture.  Am I without bias?  Surely not.   

I am curious. If a woman really loves her dog, do you see any problem in scripture with her marrying an animal?

Yes I would have a problem with her marrying her dog.  Dogs are not made in the image of God.  Do I have a problem with pedophelia?  Yes.  Love does no harm.

[sparrow]

I agree with Seeker's views...

[Diane]

Well so there are limits in your beliefs, I was curious about that. So, seeing that you have limitations as to how far your belief goes, I am curious; would you have a problem with an adult male marrying a teenage male?

Love does no harm.  For me to give my blessing to any marriage I need to know the people involved in order to see how their relationship affects their lives.  Maturity can come early to some and never to others.

I agree with Seeker's views...

I too thought Seeker's post was very good.

[sparrow]

Love does no harm. 

Only four words, but such a profound statement, huh? 

[fire walker]

Are people born with genetic defects such as conjoined twins, amorhadites or other such things chosing to live in sin because they are not natural? I hardly judge anyone
with physical, harmones or mentaly genetical defects as living a life of sin, they are burdened enough already without my self righteous condemnation of them just because they fall outside of what man calls natural, they are still capable of receiving and giving love  , in fact without love life could not exsist, babies have been known to die in some cases where the mother has neglected to give them love and care.
Also scripture exhorts us to know no man after the flesh, it is the spirit that we are to descern not the natural flesh which is a temporary mortal clay house.

And Peter seing him, John asked Jesus  and what shall this man do? and Jesus answered and said: if I will that a man tarry until I come WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?  you just  follow me.

 I see the message in those verses as a powerful exhortation to us, to be concerned with getting the beam out of our own eye instead of trying to influence others in what they should do by the letter, remember the letter is death, only the spirit gives life, 

Fire Walker