Kirk Cameran just roasted because he cannot defend his belief...

[arcticmonster2003]

I am sorry to say, for those whom say the "intentions" of the "atheists" are good. You say watch the entire video and you will see their good intentions?
One only has to go to the beginning to see the intentions. (have you seen the end without going to the beginning? )

[shibboleth]

I watched this video yesterday and the fact that Ray uses some of the OT commandments to prove God's existense was so wrong; when Kirk said they would use no scriptures to prove God.

The fact that Kirk and Ray ask people if they lie, commit adultery (in the heart), and steal is proof that all they have is the OT and law to try to get people to listen to their spiel. I always tell people how much God loves them....no matter what they've done or will do.

Ray holds up a picture and said that scientists locked in a room would agree that someone had painted it. The fact is that scientists wouldn't know that someone painted the picture unless they had been told that fact, or seen someone paint it themselves. All scientific truths have to be observable....if I told 100 people to put a bar of Ivory soap in water to see if it floats; that's scientific observation. But, to simply stair at a picture to "prove" someone painted it doesn't prove a thing.

For me, anyway, the fact that I can't prove God exists is greatly satisfying to my soul. If God was provable mathmatically, scientifically, or any other way, He would be no greater than the items that are used to prove their scientific validity.

I watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly. I don't think these people hate God, they hate the idea that God would burn and torment people forever for no other reason than they didn't believe in Him. IMO of course.

[arcticmonster2003]

quote

FYI - The signal isn't devil Worship.  Ronnie James Dio, a rock star in the late 70's and early 80's made it up.  Simply put, Ronnie James Dio called the hand gesture "Darkness".  Now, you have to understand that Ronnie James Dio is agnostic himself.  He doesn't believe in the devil, and also speaks out against institutionalized religion.  I see nothing wrong with the rock hand gesture, especially as used in the video.  It was clearly a response to get mindless Christian fundamentals into a blood frenzy.

There are those whom might disagree that its just for fun rock and rollers. But believe as you may.

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/signsymbols.htm



see this one especially
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7291576249010861576
and this one
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/signs_of_satan.htm

[studier]

I watched a number of these utubes from athiests and noticed the hellfire doctrine came up repeatedly. I don't think these people hate God, they hate the idea that God would burn and torment people forever for no other reason than they didn't believe in Him. IMO of course.

I got that feeling too. I am sure a lot of them believe in God, but hate the God that Ray and Kirck teach, their God is irrational.

[Gabe Grinstead]

I am sorry to say, for those whom say the "intentions" of the "atheists" are good. You say watch the entire video and you will see their good intentions?
One only has to go to the beginning to see the intentions. (have you seen the end without going to the beginning? )

I am affraid that some of this is going over your head.  You seem to think these people are anti Christian.  The reality is that they are anti-Religion Christian.  There is a HUGE difference.  You see, most people that represent Christianity are not Christians at all.  They just going through the motions. A true Christian is to know God and those that know God will not believe that is pure evil (ET). For it God does inflict ET, then truly he is evil.  But those that know God know that he is not like that.  Thus, most Athiests know God better than most Christians.

You are free to dissagree, but I think you are simply offended that people speak out about Christianity and you somehow find yourself in that group.  Whether this is a misconception of yours or not, I am not sure.  When someone says "I hate Christians" you can't take it personally or that they hate you.  You have to understand the context. They are saying that they hate the Christians they see on TV and the ones they met, and generally for good reason.  You need to find out WHAT it is they hate about them instead of simply taking offense and writing them off as God-haters. The reality is, they hate the false God of Christianity, which is the one who tortures people.  I hate that False God too! Thank goodness that is NOT the true God.  That is a false God whom 90% of the spiritual world worships.

I am a believer in Christ and I am not offend by those who speak out against Christianity.  Because, again, I am not sure I want to be associated with the name Christian because of all the people that clearly give it a bad name.

As for the devil horns... A lot of that stuff is non sense.  Pure and utter non-sense.  Do you believe that an actual curse comes out of your hands if you do the 'devil horns'? A curse is in the intent, not doing some motion with your hands.  A curse is from the heart and that is why it is bad.

[Gabe Grinstead]

If people want to know why I mock the occult, it is because I simply believe too many people believe that Satan has more power than God.  People run around trying to cast out demons of sex, lust, etc... That is laughable. I am sorry, that is just pure laughable. I simply don't believe that touching a video game with a warlock in it is going to unleash demons into my house, or take posses my child... Sorry, I am not sure I believe that way.

Even if it does exist, ones intent would have to be on unleashing those powers.  I have no intent to raise undead minions to do my bidding.  Additionally, if someone cast a spell on me, I would laugh it off.  Besides, isn't God, my protector more powerful than any spell that could be cast on me? I mean seriously... People have taken this occult thing WAY TO FAR and have given it power to scare and spread fear.

Isn't Elijah and the 400 Profits of Bail proof enough? 400 Profits chanting to the bail god (devil worship) and nothing! Seems to me it is powerless.

[arcticmonster2003]

All Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ, this is why I defend them.

I'm sorry if you thought I was empowering the occult, as I wasn't, nor do I acknowledge that it has any power over those whom serve God, but this doesn't mean that people aren't into it or that they might not use a hand signal to identify each other.

Yes, I do think those spirits were anti-christian. Everything has a spiritual root.
1 John 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

As I see things more clearly, the spirit world is the real world of whom Jesus Christ is Lord, this is a real fact, so where we have spirits denying this fact, we have a spiritual battle. I cannot look on these type of things anymore with American political correctness, As Jesus is Lord, and thats at real fact.

[studier]

Tis all good. Sometimes it takes a the lowiest of animals to have God speak through, an athiest challenging a Christian who cannot defend their irrational God, would be no different than a donkey doing it, would you agree?

[arcticmonster2003]

No, I wouldn't agree. I rather the donkey do it. As I said, where we have spirits denying Christ, we have a spiritual battle. Jesus is Lord, the spirits know this, even the unclean ones, so where there is a human being battling Christ, it is a spirit battling, with no good intentions.

(or what would you think if a donkey was speaking that there is no God?) You would say it had an unclean spirit in it. (at least I think you would)

[Gabe Grinstead]

(or what would you think if a donkey was speaking that there is no God?) You would say it had an unclean spirit in it. (at least I think you would)

Uhhm... That depends.  Do you recall in the OT when God said he would send a lying spirit? Don't you find that interesting? Can you explain what that is and was?

[Gabe Grinstead]

No, I wouldn't agree. I rather the donkey do it. As I said, where we have spirits denying Christ, we have a spiritual battle. Jesus is Lord, the spirits know this, even the unclean ones, so where there is a human being battling Christ, it is a spirit battling, with no good intentions.

I cannot say I dissagree with this.  But I am not sure why this applies... These people are not attempting to debunk Jesus.  They are debunking 1) That Kirk and Ray did not have any scientific evidence and 2) That God is going to send people to eternal torture.  I don't see this as Anti-Christ at all... I see that as the facts... God isn't going to eternally torture anyone, and Kirk and Ray did NOT have any scientific data... So, tell, where does the bolded part you wrote about really apply?

[Michele]

I think I've watched that debate between Kirk Cameron and the atheists.......interesting to say the least.

......wish both sides would have found some common ground to build on like......kindness, family, charity.......and most of all love.  I'm sure both sides would agree that God isn't a bearded old man who lives in the sky.

I wish Kirk Cameron would have gone into defining what he believes God is.  Seems as though he defines God as creator, and the atheists say we have no creator.  That's where everything gets tricky.  I wish they would have went into asking the atheists about what they believe is guiding the universe starting from what they call the "Big Bang"......and about their theories on mass consciousness, and if they believe there is such a thing.....and if so how it impacts the universe and all the complexities of time and how it unfolds for each of us in its own mysterious way.

These are the kinds of things atheists, Christians, and all people should be asking -- how is it that we are -- how is it that we even exist?....and how is it that we may find Hope for humanity.....and know that goodness will prevail?

Lately I've been listening to some recordings from Jane Goodall (you know the lady who studies the chimpanzees of Africa) and I've been thinking about getting one of her books.......it's called A Reason For Hope   

Here is the link to some of the reviews on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Reason-Hope-Spiritual-Jane-Goodall/dp/0446676136/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196975394&sr=1-3

[Cardinal]

  SG, I'm not trying to get all off subject here, but have you seen the work someone (not sure who she was now) did with a chimp and a small pictograph thing where she trained it in sign language? So it would ask for an apple, or to hold it's kitten. I love His creation, and when I saw that, I just started bawling,and praising God. Bawling for what poor stewards man has been of the creatures of the earth, and praising Him for the spirit He placed in them. Blessings to you.....

[Cardinal]

  And Gabe, I know God is more powerful than Satan, but the Word He had me tell people to stand on regarding those sorts of things, is "Take not an unclean thing into your house, lest ye worship that thing."

When He had me in that walk many years ago, it was nothing to see things flying off the walls of their homes and MUCH WORSE, when we went to witness, and I was continually having to educate them on why they needed to get the astrology books, ouija boards, tarot cards, ect., demonic so-called "kids" games like D and D, out of their homes and repent of such.

Now understand they didn't come forward admitting to these things initially; they wanted help for the very real evil manifestations they were experiencing in their homes, and were scared, and looking to blame anything but what they had done to bring it in. But in ministering truth to them, the evil spirits got angry because they didn't want to leave their happy home(s) and so would manifest openly in our presence, which would lead to the questions about what they had done to open the door to it. I NEVER saw anyone who didn't open the door by bringing one or more of these things into their home, or else not being aware their children had, one of the two.

One of my more memorable times, the woman's son had brought in the offending games. While we were sitting at her kitchen table discussing why this was bad, and she was making excuses because she didn't want to confront her son about it, suddenly the lights went out in ONLY her apartment, and it sounded like 5 seconds later, right beside her in the dark, like someone dropped a bowling ball from about 6 feet high. She screamed and literally nearly jumped in my lap, hanging on my neck (I was sitting on the other side of her from the noise) begging me to help her. If she hadn't been terrified it would have been really funny, so abrupt was her change of heart.

The Word IS a sword, cutting asunder soul and spirit, and sometimes soulish things don't  take kindly to the circumcision process, LOL. Blessings to all..... 

[Kept]

omgosh you guys, athiests are donkeys and what was Gary A as a former agnostic, a monkey or something?

I am very dissappointed, you guys need to get out more, rub sholders with people that dont believe in a God and you will find most of them are not much different than you are. They live, they love, they laugh, they cry.

kept

[Gabe Grinstead]

omgosh you guys, athiests are donkeys and what was Gary A as a former agnostic, a monkey or something?

I am very dissappointed, you guys need to get out more, rub sholders with people that dont believe in a God and you will find most of them are not much different than you are. They live, they love, they laugh, they cry.

kept

Amen! :D

[studier]

I never said Atheists are donkeys, I said that if God could use a Donkey, why can't he use an Athiest? :P

[Kept]

Tis all good. Sometimes it takes a the lowiest of animals to have God speak through, an athiest challenging a Christian who cannot defend their irrational God, would be no different than a donkey doing it, would you agree?

yeah, but go back and read, you said the lowest of animals, and so your point was athiests are the lowest of humans

that my friend is really ugly to me and how most of the wonderful christians that come to 'save' them treat them too and then they wonder why there is so much anger?

kept

[Gabe Grinstead]

Tis all good. Sometimes it takes a the lowiest of animals to have God speak through, an athiest challenging a Christian who cannot defend their irrational God, would be no different than a donkey doing it, would you agree?

yeah, but go back and read, you said the lowest of animals, and so your point was athiests are the lowest of humans

that my friend is really ugly to me and how most of the wonderful christians that come to 'save' them treat them too and then they wonder why there is so much anger?

kept

Kept,

I don't think Craig meant it in that way... Besides, we were all athiests at some point, even if we do not remember it.  Therefore, it is one of those things you cannot really be prejaduce against what you once were.  Some people still are though. I think many Athiests believe in a God, just not a personal God.  They might not admit it, but I think that is probably where many stand today. Like, they don't leave out the possibility of God, they just don't want false hope?

[arcticmonster2003]

quote arcticmonster2003

No, I wouldn't agree. I rather the donkey do it. As I said, where we have spirits denying Christ, we have a spiritual battle. Jesus is Lord, the spirits know this, even the unclean ones, so where there is a human being battling Christ, it is a spirit battling, with no good intentions.

quote Gabe

I cannot say I dissagree with this.  But I am not sure why this applies... These people are not attempting to debunk Jesus.  They are debunking 1) That Kirk and Ray did not have any scientific evidence and 2) That God is going to send people to eternal torture.  I don't see this as Anti-Christ at all... I see that as the facts... God isn't going to eternally torture anyone, and Kirk and Ray did NOT have any scientific data... So, tell, where does the bolded part you wrote about really apply?

Again I did explain pretty well my belief that "the spirit world is the real world" understanding, these people were anti-God period, and Christ is God, since they don't even acknowledge God, they certainly don't acknowledge that he walked the earth as Jesus Christ. I agree that Kirk and Ray were in over their head, they should know better than to babble about scientific proof, and did not realize that this was a spiritual matter, but they are blessed for the persecution in Christs name.

If you disagree on why this applies, I do understand. What I feel is based on their spirit, not their words so much.

quote arcticmonster

(or what would you think if a donkey was speaking that there is no God?) You would say it had an unclean spirit in it. (at least I think you would)

quote Gabe

Uhhm... That depends.  Do you recall in the OT when God said he would send a lying spirit? Don't you find that interesting? Can you explain what that is and was?

Ok, Gabe, if I saw a donkey saying there is no God, I would agree it could be called a lying or unclean spirit, but I wouldn't listen to it or try to justify that donkey's words when it clearly came to lie to me. When it was clearly a lying spirit or unclean spirit.

As far as God sending these spirits, I really don't want to address that here, as there is "Sovereinty" thread in the debate section thats like 50 pages long.
 
 

[arcticmonster2003]

The reason I said I would rather have a donkey say there is no God, is that then people would more easily be able to see the unclean\lying spirit, since donkeys do not talk ordinarily, even the unbelieving would then see it is a spiritual matter, not a fleshly matter.

Kept, sorry about the donkeys, as I was responding to questions that were made, and am talking of a spiritual matter.

I am gracefully bowing out of this thread.

[studier]

Tis all good. Sometimes it takes a the lowiest of animals to have God speak through, an athiest challenging a Christian who cannot defend their irrational God, would be no different than a donkey doing it, would you agree?

yeah, but go back and read, you said the lowest of animals, and so your point was athiests are the lowest of humans

that my friend is really ugly to me and how most of the wonderful christians that come to 'save' them treat them too and then they wonder why there is so much anger?

kept

Then you didn't understand how I said it.

The reason there is so much anger, is because people jump to conclusions and let their emotions rule them. We need to keep our emotions in check and examine our hearts.

[Molly]

..and then they wonder why there is so much anger?

Kept, they are angry at God.  Trust me on this one.  I'm surrounded by them.

Notice how they spend almost as much time talking about God as we do?

[Molly]

Understand, these atheists think they won the debate.  They actually think they 'won' something.

Well, what did they win?  The proof that they are going to be annihilated when they die?  The proof that there is really no purpose in life except their own shallow pleasures?  The proof that they really don't have very much to aspire to or to live for?  The proof that they are ultimately alone in the universe and there is no good reason to do one thing or another?

Ok, they won.

So did Camus.  Right before he drove his car into a tree.

[studier]

I honestly don't think they were atheist. They were rationalists. A little different. They want to believe in a loving God and they believe it is more rational than what these two were teaching.