Kirk Cameran just roasted because he cannot defend his belief...

[Gabe Grinstead]

I was searching the net this evening and found a really good video. You really need to watch the entire thing, because if you decide to only watch the 1st 1/2 you may not come to the conclusion that you should.  The people in the video, even though they are not Christian, clearly know God better than the two people who were chosen to defend him!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-rKiGJrcNw&feature=PlayList&p=339C039DED8DFD8B&index=10

Post your thoughts... :D

[Sarah]

Wow, doesn't look too good for Cameron and Ray.....I can't believe they agreed to offer scientific evidence for the existance of God and their only ammunition was a painting.  The two athiests were right that their God was a terrorist.   

[Kept]

I believe in a good God and in my opinion He is raising up beautiful people to speak against the lies of christianity from outside christiany. Personally I find that incredibly insinc with something Molly spoke about how she sees the sons of God manifesting. Its going to blow some minds when we see whom is being used to speak truth and whom is still speaking lies.

I find nothing wrong with a person waiting on God to reveal Himself to them and in the mean time living honestly and logically and standing against the lies of christianity. Makes me wonder if these folks are not doing more of Gods work then many of those that think they are doing Gods work.

loved it

kept

[jfraysse]

I agree with Gabe, Sarah and Kept and many of the arguments tendered forth by most atheists.  Many unbelievers and ex-believers became so by actually studying the Bible and Christian History.  Most Christian dogmas are very difficult to defend in any absolute sense.  Approaches from the perspective of a Theist or Deist allow more latitude in deflecting atheistic arguments.

Seeing Dimly, John 

[Gizmo]

Haven't we all taken the atheist's path, at least in part.  We've rejected the god of christianity, the spiritual waterboarder...

Fortunately we've been saved from churchianity by Jesus!!!

Giz

[Kept]

  good one Giz

kept

[Molly]

I don't know how I got so lucky but my earliest memories are of loving Jesus.  I never even heard the word 'hell' in my church --protestant congregationalist.  I grew up very secure in a loving God.

I just can't fathom all the people hurt by religion.  I can't figure out how that happened.

The youngest children were taught this:

Jesus loves me, this I know
'cause the Bible tells me so
Little ones to him belong
They are weak, but he is strong.

Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
The Bible tells me so!

Didn't you guys sing songs like that as little children?

[Sarah]

Didn't you guys sing songs like that as little children?

Absolutely....Along with 'I'll fly away'...some glad mornin when this life is oer I'll fly away...I'll fly away ol' glory...when I die halaluja bye and bye I'll fly away.

and 'Jesus on the main line', ... if you want salvation, tell Him what you want.  Call im up, call im up, tell Him what you want, tell im what you want right now.

I'm being silly...I love singing those songs.  Although I don't think I'll 'fly away' as many suppose, I think that song is so fun to sing.  And I laugh everytime I think of Jesus on the mainline...I picture Eva Gabor on Green Acres climbing up the telephone pole.

Approaches from the perspective of a Theist or Deist allow more latitude in deflecting atheistic arguments.

I agree.

[Molly]

Jesus on the mainline? LOL

I don't even know what a mainline is now, much less when I was a little kid.

Is that a train?

[reFORMer]

Early telephone connections included entire neighborhoods.  Rural was last to have private service to each cutomer.  I can still remember when you could pick up the phone and hear the conversation of some neighbor with a friend they'd called, interrupt with a request that they'd hang up so you could make a call.  You could point out to them that after all, they'd hogged the line for over an hour.  Just pick up the phone.  You don't even have to dial some outside number.  Jesus is on the mainline here and now.  (Sometimes I sing it with a more racy meaning in my head.  I imagine I'm addicted to Jesus and I'm just now shooting up!  Jesus on the mainline now!)

After watching Rational Response Squad roast Kirk Cameron I noticed they had 6,148 comment/responses.  On youtube's intro page for Featured Videos I chose "Most Discussed."  None of their 4 out of 12 (that was 2 out of 12 the third time) with even more views had more than 335 comments. What am I getting when I choose "Most Discussed?"  What's going on?  Can I access the videos that have the most "discussion" or do they mean something else than the most comments by that terminology?

Something that athiests do, which is also a common error of Christians:  they mistake religion for God.  Often, most of what they're against isn't even God.  It's Institutional Christianity and the belief's and practices of the people who have intercourse with it.  Various persons who're think they're against God in their minds, I've told them that the real God agrees with them.  He's against religion more than they are.

---James

[jfraysse]

Hey Molly, I sing these songs too!  Who wouldn't.  The idea that some cosmic force or being created and cares about us, and even took our form and was willing to be tortured and killed to confirm God's Law of Love is compelling beyond words!  But these songs point out the "goodness and light" aspects of Christianity and do not touch on its theologically complicated, dark and morally ambiguous aspects. 

Atheists and agonistics attack these elements of institutionalize religion.  They tend to target the "Big Three Abrahamic" faiths (Christianity, Judaism and Islam), especially fundamentalism which can lead to Religious Fascism.  They argue that the existence of a personal God is completely unsustainable in any rational or scientific sense.  Further, they insist that these "delusions" when combined with a mandate to "conquer the world for God" have actually hurt humanity by dividing it and abating its collective progress toward social justice, tolerance, self-rule, scientific discovery and personal freedom. I must agree.  I guess this makes me a spirit-lead, Bible-Skeptical, (Christian?) Deist ( I hates labels!).  A heretic, nevertheless!

Gee, its late!  I'm going to bed! Love to all ! 

Grace & Peace, John (Rm 1:19-20)

[97531]

Well I have not watched the vid but I have seen Kirk on TV.

Half the plan of salvation is worked out in him, Jesus/Father have done the initial revelation.

Because of his star status, thrust into a ministry he is not called into and clearly w/o even watching the vid, he is not qualified to speak out.

Pretty faces doth not a teacher make.  All he has done is to exchange the glamour and glitz of Hollywood for the glamour and glitz of "christian" TV.

How close am I?  Promise I have not looked.

Blessings

[hopeful]

The youngest children were taught this:

Jesus loves me, this I know
'cause the Bible tells me so
Little ones to him belong
They are weak, but he is strong.

Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
Yes Jesus loves me
The Bible tells me so!

Didn't you guys sing songs like that as little children?

No...  I never heard that song until I knew He loved me because HE told me so!    Thank you, Lord!   

[arcticmonster2003]

You are pretty close there SeekerSA, Kirk definetely had that deer in the headlights stare, like his mom just told him his dad isn't his real dad, or something like that.

[Molly]

Hey Molly, I sing these songs too!  Who wouldn't.  The idea that some cosmic force or being created and cares about us, and even took our form and was willing to be tortured and killed to confirm God's Law of Love is compelling beyond words!  But these songs point out the "goodness and light" aspects of Christianity and do not touch on its theologically complicated, dark and morally ambiguous aspects. 

Atheists and agonistics attack these elements of institutionalize religion.  They tend to target the "Big Three Abrahamic" faiths (Christianity, Judaism and Islam), especially fundamentalism which can lead to Religious Fascism.  They argue that the existence of a personal God is completely unsustainable in any rational or scientific sense.  Further, they insist that these "delusions" when combined with a mandate to "conquer the world for God" have actually hurt humanity by dividing it and abating its collective progress toward social justice, tolerance, self-rule, scientific discovery and personal freedom. I must agree.  I guess this makes me a spirit-lead, Bible-Skeptical, (Christian?) Deist ( I hates labels!).  A heretic, nevertheless!

Gee, its late!  I'm going to bed! Love to all ! 

Grace & Peace, John (Rm 1:19-20)

What's "theologically complicated, dark, and morally ambiguous" about Love your neighbor as yourself?

Nothing. lol.  Jesus told us the two greatest commandments were Love God and Love your neighbor.  He said all the law and the prophets were summarized in these two commandments.  These two are also found in the Old Testament, as he was pointing out to the rabbinical leaders of the time, something they seemed to consistently overlook along with some modern sects of Christianity who will remain unnamed (hear that Hagee?).

Here are these commandments from Jesus in the New and directly from God himself in the Old Testament:

Matthew 22
But when the Pharisees heard that He had put the Sadducees to silence, they gathered themselves together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
    And He said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."


Deut 6:5
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.


Lev 19
18 " '.... but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.


Did you guys learn the golden rule as children?

Matt 7:12

Therefore, however you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Jesus made it as simple as he possibly could for these evil men who do not love God or they would obey his second commandment.  Even a child could understand it.  If the three great religions of this world would listen to their God, I think it would be a much nicer place to live.  As usual, the problem is man, not God.

PS Don't you miss the personal relationship with God?

[Molly]

Well I have not watched the vid but I have seen Kirk on TV.

Half the plan of salvation is worked out in him, Jesus/Father have done the initial revelation.

Because of his star status, thrust into a ministry he is not called into and clearly w/o even watching the vid, he is not qualified to speak out.

Pretty faces doth not a teacher make.  All he has done is to exchange the glamour and glitz of Hollywood for the glamour and glitz of "christian" TV.

How close am I?  Promise I have not looked.

Blessings

He didn't have the science background to deal with these two lightweight atheists.  A scientist could have dealt with them in a newyork minute.  And, their demeanor was mean and hard hearted, so they didn't win any points there, either.

They think the universe created itself.  Someone should put them in a room with the pieces of a Swiss watch and command them to stay there watching them until the pieces assemble themselves into a perfect watch keeping perfect time.  Don't touch!  Tell them we don't want to hear from them again until they can show us the watch.


Before anyone waxes poetic about atheists, it should be noted that this is part of an orchestrated social movement away from Christianity.  You all may have noticed the subset of that which is a movement away from liberty and freedom.  They are just pawns.   Check out history and note that the great communist countries cannot allow Christianity because it is so threatening to their central fascist command.  People who believe in God are put in mental institutions or killed outright.  The Russian communists killed 60 to 100 million of them.

He who is ignorant of history is destined to repeat it.

[arcticmonster2003]

It is interesting that in the car ride to the "event" two of the "atheists" make that Satanic hand gesture.

 

[Cardinal]

Well I have not watched the vid but I have seen Kirk on TV.

Half the plan of salvation is worked out in him, Jesus/Father have done the initial revelation.

Because of his star status, thrust into a ministry he is not called into and clearly w/o even watching the vid, he is not qualified to speak out.

Pretty faces doth not a teacher make.  All he has done is to exchange the glamour and glitz of Hollywood for the glamour and glitz of "christian" TV.

How close am I?  Promise I have not looked. Blessings

Sad. but true Seeker. His heart is right, he clearly wants to serve God, but he has been indoctrinated by man and not by God so much it hurts me (for him) to watch him. This is a prime example of what respect of persons does. People look at the outward titles, successes, ect. and their attitude towards them changes, and they are ascribed maturity in God they may not even have yet.

He once took me into a church evening service when I was visiting some people in Canada and gave me a word of knowledge and a word of wisdom for the pastor's wife, and the co-pastor, which I related after the service, privately, who tearfully acknowledged it was God. He also gave me a word for 2 men in the church, HE said were elders He had placed there, one of whom told me he had just prayed asking an answer to that very thing (isn't He amazing?), in the morning service.

The "funny" thing was, those 2 men were not the elders the church recognized as elders. He knows those who are seeking His face/nature and those who are in a place in their walk of seeking recognition of men, yet He loves all men equally. Now that's a good God. Blessings to all......

[Molly]

It is interesting that in the car ride to the "event" two of the "atheists" make that Satanic hand gesture.

 

Yes, I noticed that, too, LOL.

I just heard this about astronomers on the radio yesterday, so I googled and found this on wisconsin christian news.


"Ninety percent of all astronomers alive today, those that look into the farthest extent of the universe, believe the hand that made the stars is Divine!  The esteemed astronomer Carl Sagan and other prominent scientists have estimated that the possibility of man evolving at roughly 1 chance in 102,000,000,000.  This is the number one with two billion zeros after it.  No chance at all.  The famous astronomer and mathematician Sir Fred Hoyle wrote, "The chance that life forms might have emerged in this way is comparable with the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials within, or a dictionary resulting from an explosion at a print shop."

[Cardinal]

  LOL, loved that Sir Fred observation........

[Kept]

the hand signals are to offend fundamentalist christians. Its not because they are satan worshippers.

Athiests dont believe any more in satan then they do in God. Its laughable to them.

kept

[jfraysse]

Hey Sister Molly:  I appreciate your pure heart!  You are one of many on this site!  You, of course, are correct about "loving your neighbor" and yes, this is easy to understand, but as I pointed out, this idea is part of the "goodness and light" aspects of religion.  BTW, the law of reciprocity is not unique to the Abrahamic faiths and, in fact, is quite common among other world religions that pre-date the Big Three by thousands of years. 

What Christianity and Jesus bring to the table that is UNIQUE is the concept of "unconditional love" and the idea of "sacrificial love", that is, loving someone without requirements on their part and the laying down of one's life for, not only one's friends, but also for the greater good of one's enemies.  These "rules to live by" are very difficult to implement but nevertheless, easy to understand.  After these and a few more, the theology becomes complicated, dark and morally ambiguous to the point that anyone so disposed can justify about anything with the Bible record!

We can discuss some of these "dark" topics if you like, but the bottom line is that I don't believe the Biblical record in many places, especially the OT.  I reject much of the Dogma associated with St Paul's letters and all prophecies associated with the "end-times".  I believe many of these to be divisive and counter-productive to improving the human condition.

Romans 1:19-20 makes sense to me and if it is true, then everyone (even without "scriptures") has a knowledge of God that is spiritually revealed and John 15:26 states that God's Spirit will guide us in all truth.

Using our God-given ability to reason and the assurance of God's spiritual help is the only hope we have to survive our own religiosity.  To me, this is very personal and reason for me to be continually thankful!

Grace & Peace, John

[arup]

I couldn't watch the whole thing.  Kinda made me nauseous.

There was little of scientific merit from either side.  For Kirk and Ray it was another evangelizing opportunity and they didn't do their homework.  I suspect their hearts were in the right place, but they were unprepared.  For the atheists it was nothing more than a "urinating" match (sorry, a lousy attempt at trying to soften my language there).

Andrew

[Gabe Grinstead]

Arup,

Because you did not watch the entire thing, I believe you came to the wrong conclusion over it.  I could be wrong, but because you didn't finish it, you didn't see the heart of the people who were against Kirk Cameron.  They are genuinely good people...

FYI - The signal isn't devil Worship.  Ronnie James Dio, a rock star in the late 70's and early 80's made it up.  Simply put, Ronnie James Dio called the hand gesture "Darkness".  Now, you have to understand that Ronnie James Dio is agnostic himself.  He doesn't believe in the devil, and also speaks out against institutionalized religion.  I see nothing wrong with the rock hand gesture, especially as used in the video.  It was clearly a response to get mindless Christian fundamentals into a blood frenzy.

Arup, you also seem to forgot the the burdan of proof lies upon Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc... They are the ones trying to convert and spread fear through.  In fact, these guys mentioned that these religions are terrorists and touches on that.  Something Gary of this site believes as well! I thought to myself, AMEN when those two athiests made that statement, because it is true!  Anyway, to get back to my main point, the burden of proof is on Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc... Therefore, no scientific evidence was even needed on their part except to refute the empiracle evidence...

I suppose some people are going to try and label me an athiest for this - that is ok.  God knows where I stand.  The fact is, I cannot prove God exists, I believe it. I am totally at peace about not being able to prove it through science. Why does everyone else get upset?

[arup]

Arup,

Because you did not watch the entire thing, I believe you came to the wrong conclusion over it.  I could be wrong, but because you didn't finish it, you didn't see the heart of the people who were against Kirk Cameron.  They are genuinely good people...

Hi, Gabe.  You might be right.  If I get some time later I'll see if can catch the whole thing...

edit - I guess I just got the sense from the first few minutes that they were more interested in making the Christians look stupid than having a real discussion...  I'll try to hold my judgment until I look at it again...