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Offline jabcat

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Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« on: April 11, 2011, 09:02:50 AM »
Re: Did any of you ever belong to an evangelical, protestant or Catholic Church?
Reply #20 on: May 22, 2010, 11:40:38 PM       

________________________________________
Consider that most of the people in various Christian groups do have a genuine love for God.  The Father delights in that.  I seek to regard that reality with a mercying heart full of tender pity and loving kindness.   Yet, if there is a path that leads into the heart of God, a path that is blocked by the way we function when we meet, we would speak the truth in love.

Quote from:     on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
Hey reFORMer.  From reading your posts in the section you listed, my understanding is that you have a fundamental mistrust of the developments that emerged in the first few centuries, as well as having issues with many denominations such as the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglican Churches.  Honestly, I do understand where that mistrust comes from because I have felt the same way.


The religious bureauchrazies you mention are the ritualists.  My posts were more aimed at the practices of those following the  reformation model for meetings; but, I did touch on the earliest beginnings.  You'll find a direct parallel between the beginning of Israel inheriting the land of promise and the Eclessia's beginnings.  Israel was led by the Holy Spirit Who chose to constitute from among them a Seer and the early Eclessia was led by gifts of the Spirit among them.  Early on that was replaced by  knowledgeable men who became authorities recreating the hierarchies of the Roman Empire similar to Israel demanding of Samuel the Seer:

"'[5]...appoint to us a king, to judge us, like all the nations.' [6] And the thing is evil in the eyes of Samuel, when they have said, `Give to us a king to judge us;' and Samuel prayeth unto Jehovah. [7] And Jehovah saith unto Samuel, `Hearken to the voice of the people, to all that they say unto thee, for thee they have not rejected, but Me they have rejected, from reigning over them. [8] According to all the works that they have done from the day of My bringing them up out of Egypt, even unto this day, when they forsake Me, and serve other gods -- so they are doing also to thee. [9] And now, hearken to their voice; only, surely thou dost certainly protest to them, and hast declared to them the custom of the king who doth reign over them.' [10] And Samuel speaketh all the words of Jehovah unto the people who are asking from him a king, [11] and saith, `This is the custom of the king who doth reign over you: Your sons he doth take, and hath appointed for himself among his chariots, and among his horsemen, and they have run before his chariots; [12] also to appoint for himself heads of thousands, and heads of fifties...'" (1 Sam 8:5-12, YLT)

In the midst of telling them how a king would take whatever was theirs, even their own selves, God points out how the carnal king rules:  by hierarchies.  The rule of God is an intimate union with Jesus as Spirit and no other intermediaries.

[18] "And ye have cried out in that day because of the king whom ye have chosen for yourselves, and Jehovah doth not answer you in that day.' [19] And the people refuse to hearken to the voice of Samuel, and say, `Nay, but a king is over us, [20] and we have been, even we, like all the nations; and our king hath judged us, and gone out before us, and fought our battles. (1 Sam 8:18-20, YLT)

This latter statement is what you use to justify the bureaucrazies that always persecute those who pursue the Spirit.

Quote from:     on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
Honestly, I do understand where that mistrust comes from because I have felt the same way.


I think you misunderstand both the source and the depth of my repulsion for Institutional Christianity.  It is not just a feeling.  Whether we will build the temple or be assimilated in Babylon is what is at stake.

Quote from:    on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
And although I have come to believe differently, I still do have many issues with the Churches I just mentioned, including the Catholic Church which I am in the process of becoming apart of.  However, those differences do not outweigh the things that I am in agreement with.  For starters, there is the issue of authority.  I know many will disagree with me but I have come to the point in my faith where I can no longer affirm Sola Scriptura.  The fact of the matter is, Sola Scriptura was developed by the Protestant Reformers in reaction to the abuses of the 16th Century Catholic Church, abuses which they had every right to feel indignation towards.


The practice of using Scripture as authority is from the beginning.  >From the men of God in Abraham's footsteps and ancient rabbis to the days the Christian's Oracles were written and the centuries that followed, again and again from the evidence of many manuscripts, Scripture is elevated above the reason and tradition of man and is cited as the authority of God.  What is called "The New Testament" abounds with the use of the Hebrew Scriptures as Divine authority attesting to the veracity the New Testament.  The Reformation call to return to "Sola Scriptura" as authoritative was not innovative.  Certainly, it was not the standard for the Roman Church which not only burned Scripture in the vernacular by the wheelbarrow full, they came to burn alive as proven heretics whoever possessed copies of The Word in their native tongues.  It is interesting that these vernacular versions were from the Byzantine or Western family of texts, from which we get the King James Version.  Many of the recent English Versions use Vaticanus, Alexandrinius, Siniaticus, which are the Roman Catholic texts.  The agreement of the vernacular versions, including English, is clear from the later (1599 AD) Nuremberg Polyglot presenting the four gospels in twelve languages.  This also reveals a disagreement with the Roman version.  The war against believers in the Word and whoever experienced the gifts of the Spirit was engaged by the setup in Rome very early.  "Sola Scripture" also was not an island to itself.  It was balanced with "Sola Gratis," and "Sola Fides, " by grace through faith alone.  As well, the reformers admitted they failed to accomplish the return of the ministry to the people of God, what they called, "The Priesthood of All Believers."

Today for people to say, "We believe the Bible" is in part a result of the reformers call to return to purity, but it has become a gimmick.  The problem is , unknown to those parroting those words, they are often unaware of what the Scripture does or does not say.  Without that there is no practical exercise of Scripture as authority.  Ninety-seven percent of those saying they are born again and attend Church regularly have never read the Bible through even once. In almost all of the churches attended the Scripture is not gone through systematically, from the first chapter of the first verse consecutively through to the last verse of the last chapter, the way God gave it to us.  If people demanded the Scripture be presented to them, rather than topics with a few verses thrown in, they could get it to happen.  It is to better for the positions of importance and the incomes of comfort of those with titles of honor from other men to keep the Word of God from the people.

Besides, Scripture alone has  never been the ultimate authority for the saints.  They serve a living and present God.  Jesus suffered and died to bring us into a direct and intimate relationship with God; and now, men are inserted between us and God, and we are expected to pay them for it?!  I don't care how gifted or knowledgeable the man on stage is, he's not body of Christ, and JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!!

To, "Have many issues," and, "Differences," as you under-state it, is the work of the Holy Spirit to save your life.  You need to take time to pay attention to these things.  Men have set up their own kingdoms and claimed it to be God's.  Many of their doctrines and practices are not of God, but exist for the unauthorized Priesthood that benefits from them.  Don't be another of their dupes.  Get free as fast as you can!

Quote from:    on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
Yet this does not erase the fact that for the first 1500 years of Christianity, the Church did not view Scripture as the sole source of authority.  This would be impossible to do for several reasons.


This is an unjust judgment based on inadequate historical knowledge.  Among other things, the Pope ordered out armies to kill those with Scripture and spiritual gifts, people like the Montanists and Albiginians.  You assume again that things were a certain way and that justifies thing being that way.

Quote from:     on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
First, is the fact that the exact definition of what Scripture is wasn't developed until centuries after Christ and the Apostles and was in fact developed by the very Church that so many today view as corrupt.


If you only read Roman or radical scholars you do yourself a dis-service.  As what Jeremiah wrote was immediately recognized to be Scripture by those of his day, the apostle Peter, who had a weakness for identifying with Jewish law and custom, that Peter calls the writings of Paul his contemporary Scripture:  "And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation, according as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16, Concordant Literal Translation)  What was already in use as Scripture was what was officially canonized by the officials of the developing Institutional replacement for the Church.

I have an excellent book (from Amazon) titled:  Khaboris Manuscript which is an ancient Syriac New Testament scribed in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke at home.   It comes from the first decade of the 200's.  The only difference from our present New Testament is it excludes Revelation, and four short Epistles, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude.

There's a Biblical proverb that says, "As the mouth tries food, so the ear tries words."  "My sheep hear my voice, and another they will not follow."  That is the way Jesus put it.  Being born of Truth, the people of God are not so stupid as the religious professionals in the Institutions portray us.  By what they do we are not supposed to know anything.  They certainly don't trust the Holy Spirit with us!  These are reasons why we cannot stay with them.

Quote from:     on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
Second, even if Scripture was the only source of authority, it wouldn't do most of the world any good due to the fact that the vast majority of the world was illiterate and even if that were not the case, books were very expensive to make and distribute before the advent of the printing press.  Most of the manuscripts we have today were apart of codices that belonged only to wealthy Christians and these codices don't all have the same works in them.  Some contain only the Gospels, some only have the Pauline Letters, and some contained all of that plus works that eventually came to be excluded from what we now have as the New Testament.


The Cambridge History of the Bible states that scriptures were so widely known worldwide that a deacon in the ancient church in Heraclea was "confident that even if all copies of the scriptures should disappear, Christians would be able to rewrite them from memory..."

"It is assumed by writers of the next hundred years that lay people can without difficulty get hold of Bibles for private study, if they will.  'Get books that will be medicine for the soul,' Chrysostom [A.D. 345-407] told his people.  'At least procure the New Testament, the Acts of the Apostles, the Gospels.'  More surprisingly perhaps, in the sixth century, Gaul Caesarius of Arles can press his flock to buy the Bible and read it at home in the dark hours of winter.  He does not appear to anticipate any lack of copies, or that they will be impossibly expensive for the farmer and tradesman" (vol.3, pp. 476-477)

"Concerning what we commonly call the New Testament, (though that really is what is written by the Spirit of God in our hearts and minds) . . . there is no compelling historical reason to reject it being finished written before 70 AD. and that vernacular versions were translated by the apostles themselves before the close of the 1st Century . . . Bibles were very available and in the languages of the people before Constantine.  This was a grassroots hand copied phenomena apart from the false authority by officials usurping the place of the Holy Spirit in the developing bureaucracy of what became Christendom which in turn took early to destroying the vernacular versions, burning them by the cartload, killing many who possessed them as well as those manifesting spiritual gifts.

(continued...)


« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 09:10:59 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2011, 09:07:15 AM »
reFORMer
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Re: Did any of you ever belong to an evangelical, protestant or Catholic Church?
Reply #21 on: May 22, 2010, 11:45:08 PM       

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(part 2, of 2...)
Quote from:     on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
Thus, it would have been impossible for the Early Church to have only Scripture as authority.  Instead, they had Scripture, Tradition, and the Community of Faith represented by the Bishops.


If what you are calling "The Early Church" is post-Nicene it wouldn't be The Early Church.  In fact, what you are saying is only true as the bureaucrats took over from around 500 to 800 AD.  The church of the Bishops was the beginning apostasy, replacing the priesthood of all believers with an elite unwarranted priesthood just to believers.

Quote from:     on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
To say certain things should not be apart of our faith because they aren't found in Scripture doesn't hold up because Tradition, the developments that came about during those first few centuries, do testify to those practices.


So, again, because certain things exist they are right?!  The fact the majority of Christians are not Roman indicates the Roman claim is false.  Not only do I know I know God and find His demonstrations in my life to prove that He is with me; but, world wide, the majority of Christians meet in their homes, apart from Pastor or Priest and largely apart from tradition and ritual.  Because the Church is not even on the program in the Sunday Morning Protestant Ritual, nor is The Church part of the performance called The Mass; but, in freely functioning home-fellowships, where there is every member participation of the body of Christ, the Church is the program de facto proves the error and antichrist nature of Institutional Christianity.  Virtually no one in such "free-for-all" fellowships can be persuaded to return to work on Massa's Plantation.

Quote from:     on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
I do not argue or believe that the Early Church was perfect but it is far from the demonized characiture that has become prevalent in modern circles.  It is claimed that the Early Church eagerly hopped into bed with the pagan world yet the reality is that the Early Church willingly gave up their lives rather than give into the pagan world around them.


Again, what is the time period for your "Early Church?"  The art, the graffiti of the ante-Nicene (before Constantine) Church portrayed Jesus as a young man, like a "happy wanderer," often surrounded with people like sheep.  When Constantine came in the art changed.  Jesus began to be portrayed as a Caesar on a throne, with a severe countenance and lightning bolts around His crowned head.

Quote from:      on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
Some ideas may have indeed crept in but this is far cry from image of a Church that flung itself into the arms of the pagans.  It is also claimed that the Early Church willingly gave into a flood of heresies yet the reality is that Early Church fought tooth and nail to defend the Faith against the likes of the Gnostics, the Montanists, the Marcionites,the Valentinians, the Arians, etc.  I do not agree with every teaching from that period but again, what we see is a far cry from the group of apostates that supposedly abandoned the Truth after the last Apostle died.


Much of what the Reformers of the 1500's cried out against is still live and well in the Roman Church today.  Indulgences are still for sale.  The market for "relics," objects of veneration (worship,) paying to get a dead loved-one out of purgatory...it's all still happening.  Rather than knowledge and implementation of the Biblical facts on the feminine in God and the female in ministry, Mary as Mediatrix is promoted.  Unfortunately, the Protestants don't seem to recognize their "Pastor" is as much another mediator as any Priest, and in conflict with the only mediator, Christ Jesus.  A good point to remember in all our attempts to have a pure Church according to the apostolic pattern is that the Reformation came and went, but the Roman Church is still here.

What we have from when the last Apostle of the Lamb died for about ninety years is nothing.  In fact, of historical artifacts until the Diocletian persecution, there are only about 100,000 personal letters, 25,000 of which are labeled "Christian."  None of them mention any kind of authority or boss over them.  Never once.  They talked to each other as brothers.

Here you're saying what Israel of old said to Samuel, demanding a king:  "...our king hath judged us, and gone out before us, and fought our battles." (1 Sam 8:20)  This is carnal, or what Jesus called "Gentile" as distinguished from spiritual authority.  This is instead of God ruling over us though the gifts of the Spirit in our midst.

At Babel you find out how the Institution is built, with brick from molds and slime for mortar instead of living stones fitted into one another.  At Babel you find out what their motive is:  "Let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth."  Yet, contrariwise, "Not by might, nor by troops, but by my Spirit says the LORD."  Babel is a lot of work!  There you find their motive is also to access the heavens and circumvent God's plan.  You also discover at Babel that God Himself creates a division you can never undo, a division and confusion showing mercy on us and the rest of creation.  This Babel, The Gate of Confusion," "God's Confusion," "The Confounding of God," is where "Babylon, Mother of Prostitutes" begins.

[1] And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. [2] And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. [3] And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. [4] And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. [5] And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. [6] And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. [7] Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. [8] So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. [9] Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. (Gen 11:1-9, KJV)

Quote from:      on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
The point I'm trying to make is that simply because something developed in the 2nd Century onwards does not mean that should be discarded.  The Early Church, despite it's flaws, is our forefathers in the faith.


There are sufficient and abundant reasons integral to many of these emerging doctrines and practices to demand our abandoning them.  Once we have met freely in a group without human headship that functions like a family, God having lead forth from us, nothing else will ever satisfy again.  Once you've seen, not God and just each other as individuals, but once you've seen "her," the Bride, God's girlfriend, you can never forget it.  It is too late to tell us we cannot fly.  These you call forefathers are certainly not "Our Father" and that settles it for me.

Quote from:      on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
And it is the traditions such as the Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, and Anglican that have closest kept that spirit alive.


What spirit?  Did God get sick and die off somewhere when I wasn't looking?  I know what the "spirit" in both Roman and Protestant bureauchrazies has produced, both of old and in my own life.  They killed each other when they could.  They've gotten rid of me when they had the opportunity.

Imagine off in the distance a group of men up on a hillside.  They all have elaborate jewel encrusted robes and crowns on.  They are facing one whose crown is more than twice the size of everybody else's crown.  It looks like they're doin' "the Hokey Pokey."  "Turn to left, now turn to your right...Simon says sit.  Simon says stand.  Now, kneel."  Why does this NOT look like Jesus and the apostles?!

Quote from:     on May 19, 2010, 11:32:22 PM
Again, I don't agree with everything presented in any of those traditions yet as I now stand, the things that I do agree with far outweigh the latter.


This is your judgment?! If there are saints in Babylon you shouldn't come out of her as the Lord commands? you shouldn't return to build the temple, the house of God?  In the days of Israel and Judah's return from Babylon most were assimilated.  Only one out of seven of the priests returned.  Even then, most of them were only building their own houses.  This is where we are at now in the USA.  There has been some return from Babylon, but most are Pastor over independent churches.  They are each building their own house, not the house of God, the body of Christ, a temple for the Presence of the Lord to freely move within, where the Lord alone is King.

(end)






Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline lomarah

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2011, 04:52:38 PM »
 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2011, 07:25:50 PM »
Excellent post.

One question I have as I contemplate this is how does the ecclesia function, with the posts of elders, overseers?  Which are given by Paul.  He obviously set up some structure, how does it work without becoming institutionalized?  what does that look like?

Offline Molly

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2011, 08:46:31 PM »
Do you realize the ekklesia includes that assembly of saints [divine council]
in heaven? :icon_king:


G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.


saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly[ekklesia] will I sing thy praises.

--Heb 2:12

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2011, 07:45:10 PM »
Excellent post.

One question I have as I contemplate this is how does the ecclesia function, with the posts of elders, overseers?  Which are given by Paul.  He obviously set up some structure, how does it work without becoming institutionalized?  what does that look like?

 :cloud9: Great post by Reformer, AMEN  :thumbsup:

How does it function? It functions like HIM. He IS, the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, ie. when He ascended, He gave gifts unto men. The gifts He gave when He ascended, are not the men standing in these offices, but rather the portion (earnest) of CHRIST, that operates AS that gift, THROUGH man. Knowing Christ is the first step; knowing who Christ is IN YOU, is the second step, and that comes by revelation of the Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit are His "personality"; the gifts of the Spirit are the "works" that personality DOES.

The Kingdom of God IS, righteousness, peace and joy. The Kingdom is a nature, a character, a state of being. The Kingdom is within you, and the evidence that it is, manifests in ALL the above mentioned ways. Blessings....
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 12:08:30 AM »


1 Tim 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
aspire:
oregomai <3713>

oregomai oregomai

Pronunciation:   or-eg'-om-ahee
Origin:   middle voice of apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary [cf 3735]
Reference:   TDNT - 5:447,727
PrtSpch:   v
In Greek:   oregetai 1, oregomenoi 1, oregontai 1
In NET:   aspires 1, reaching for 1, they aspire 1
In AV:   desire 2, covet after 1
Count:   3
Definition:   1) to stretch one's self out in order to touch or to grasp
something
, to reach after or desire something
2) to give one's self up to the love of money
middle voice of apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary
(compare 3735); to stretch oneself, i.e. reach out after (long
for):-covet after, desire.
see GREEK for 3735

bishop, overseer
episkope <1984>

episkoph episkope

Pronunciation:   ep-is-kop-ay'
Origin:   from 1980
Reference:   TDNT - 2:606,244
PrtSpch:   n f
In Greek:   episkophn 1, episkophv 3
In NET:   appears 1, office of overseer 1, position of responsibility 1, visitation 1
In AV:   visitation 2, bishoprick 1, office of a bishop 1
Count:   4
Definition:   1) investigation, inspection, visitation
1a) that act by which God looks into and searches out the
ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them
their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad

1b) oversight
1b1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
1b2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church
from 1980; inspection (for relief); by implication, superintendence;
specially, the Christian "episcopate":-the office of a "bishop",
bishoprick, visitation.
see GREEK for 1980

There doesn't seem to be much evidence for bishop being an office in the new testament, if you follow [1980] its definitely visitation.  But if you follow the word back to the Hebrew, half the time it seems to imply an office.
p@quddah <06486>

hrqp p@quddah

Pronunciation:   pek-ood-daw'
Origin:   pass part of 06485
Reference:   TWOT - 1802a
PrtSpch:   noun feminime
In Hebrew:   Mtdqp 11, tdqp 5, tdqpw 3, twdqp 3, Ktdqp 2, Mtdqpl 1, Mtdqpw 1, Ktdqpw 1, hdqph 1, wtdqp 1, hdqpl 1, hdqp 1
In NET:   punish 4, responsibility 3, judgment 2, assigned 2, punished 2, reckoning 2, assigned responsibilities 1, destruction 1, divisions 1, appointed 1, accountant 1, duties 1, appointed over 1, job 1, overseer 1, oversight 1, punishment 1, muster 1, stored up 1, guards 1, intervention 1, fate 1
In AV:   visitation 13, office 5, charge 2, oversight 2, officers 2, orderings 1, account 1, custody 1, numbers 1, misc 4
Count:   32
Definition:   1) oversight, care, custody, mustering, visitation, store
1a) visitation, punishment
1b) oversight, charge, office, overseer, class of officers
1c) mustering
1d) store
feminine passive participle of 6485; visitation (in many
senses, chiefly official):-account, (that have the) charge,
custody, that which...laid up, numbers, office(-r), ordering,
oversight, + prison, reckoning, visitation.
see HEBREW for 06485

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 12:45:18 AM »
I've read where it was more of a protector role, helping out the body, perhaps even advocating for it in a sense.  Might it have had at least something to do with the times, the persecution of the church?  Possibly..not sure.  I personally just don't see it as a "this is my church and I'll run it how I want - sit down and listen".  I realize most pastors aren't quite that obvious or forceful, but still, the whole institutionalization of it and the possible ramifications of that are an issue for me personally.   

It's a good question, i.e., what did that early set-up really look like compared to today's salaried professionals.  Paul certainly did address "how to behave in the ecclesia", but we may have a dim view of the context he was dealing with at the time.   :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 12:50:38 AM »
Another interesting related note is when John said (1st or 2nd chapter?) "you have no need of any man to teach you"...we're also told the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

Quite a bit to consider...
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 01:09:56 AM »
What ever my  :2c: is worth, I believe that His Body is just where it is supposed to be and not one iota is out of line or out of place. Just because we (mankind) and believers, find empty spaces where "we think" there ought to be, is quite minimal. Jesus is building, bringing His Body together on His timetable for His age.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 01:19:02 AM »
I also have some agreement with that bro. micah, as I believe God is in control. 

However, individually, I believe we do get led by God to do, or to change, or to leave, etc., when it fits His plans...

do you personally believe the "come out of her my people" is related to this topic at all, or pretty much addressing something different?  Thanks :)

Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Nathan

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 01:22:27 AM »
Personally, "come out of her" is the call for a separation between my spirit and carnal flesh.

Corporately, "come out of her" could be the call for a separation for those pursuing relationship over religion

publically, "come out of her" could be that every man be free from worldy powers of sin and come into the love and light of the freedom of Christ.

Offline Molly

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 03:55:39 AM »
This is what I think of--he is taking us to a new place.


Genesis 12
 1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:


Offline micah7:9

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2011, 04:40:47 AM »
I also have some agreement with that bro. micah, as I believe God is in control. 

However, individually, I believe we do get led by God to do, or to change, or to leave, etc., when it fits His plans...

do you personally believe the "come out of her my people" is related to this topic at all, or pretty much addressing something different?  Thanks :)

Yes, it is related. When His Voice is heard there must be a response, in this case it is come out. As with any thing that is rotting, dying, infected if it is not cleaned and taken from the area that caused the illness it will only get worse or spread the infection or illness.
2Co 6:16  and what agreement to the sanctuary of God with idols? for ye are a sanctuary of the living God, according as God said--`I will dwell in them, and will walk among them , and I will be their God, and they shall be My people, 2Co 6:17  wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I--I will receive you,
2Co 6:18  and I will be to you for a Father, and ye--ye shall be to Me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.'
So if, or should one be listening(and hearing) he will know that whatever the outside circumstances may offered, His Body is becoming ONE. Amidst the kosmos as man sees it.


1Co 2:14  and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;
1Co 2:15  and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;
1Co 2:16  for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we--we have the mind of Christ.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2011, 04:54:28 AM »
Inspiring thoughts, "church"    :bigGrin:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2011, 05:12:28 AM »
Inspiring thoughts, "church"    :bigGrin:

You know this Jabcat..... church :ekklēsia...a calling out.
I really believe it is a hearing thing. There are many(lots, a great amount) hearing about the Good News of Jesus Christ and His Blood and His Cross, and His sacrifice and His saving Grace....yet there are few that hear The Voice of the Shephard.. to be seperate; I believe The Father is seeking His Son, He sent His Son as the pattern..THIS is His  desire, His will, His wish, His want and I believe The Father WILL have His son.

 
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2011, 06:02:38 AM »
Amen.  (yeah, that's why I put church in "  "...   I prefer 'ecclesia'    :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2011, 07:36:56 AM »
HE is so Good! So Wonderfull so Precious a Lamb..I love you Jesus thank you for this love.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2011, 07:59:53 AM »
God's own love, feeling His love, His love for me...loving Jesus...experiencing love for the rest of the world, specially other believers...these are the things that are beginning to happen in a new way for me recently.  It is most wonderfull.  "God is love."  This is really the greatest revelation made known to man.  No other religion or philosophy even comes close.  Realize, it isn't just a sublime idea.  It is something God accomplishes in us, that he demonstrates.  This is meant to become our day to day reality.  This is how we reign in life.
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline Molly

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2011, 02:17:34 PM »
Amen.  (yeah, that's why I put church in "  "...   I prefer 'ecclesia'    :thumbsup:
ekklesia--It's a supernatural word.


Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Offline Ross

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2011, 04:10:03 PM »
Hi;  Eph 3;18,19 " In order that you might be mighty enough to grasp firmly with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height, to get to know the KNOWLEDGE SURPASSING LOVE OF THE CHRIST, in order that YOU may be filled to ALL the fulness of God."
Fellow brother in Christ

Offline Molly

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2011, 04:55:50 PM »
Hi;  Eph 3;18,19 " In order that you might be mighty enough to grasp firmly with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height, to get to know the KNOWLEDGE SURPASSING LOVE OF THE CHRIST, in order that YOU may be filled to ALL the fulness of God."

Amen!


20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

 21Unto him be glory in the [ekklesia] by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

--Eph 3

"world without end"
aion aion

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2011, 12:34:18 AM »
 :cloud9: How about "come out of her" as the Father calling forth the Son (who's in us) out of the womb of the morning?
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline Molly

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2011, 01:59:29 AM »
wow.

There are elect angels...


1 Timothy 5:21 (King James Version)

 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.



Offline eaglesway

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Re: Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2014, 09:35:24 PM »
Personally, "come out of her" is the call for a separation between my spirit and carnal flesh.

Corporately, "come out of her" could be the call for a separation for those pursuing relationship over religion

publically, "come out of her" could be that every man be free from worldy powers of sin and come into the love and light of the freedom of Christ.

Beautiful.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com