Author Topic: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions  (Read 26763 times)

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Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #275 on: June 14, 2015, 03:47:26 AM »
I personally do not believe the Creator is anywhere near upset as to how each of His individual creations react to any given situation.
A Truth, HE KNOWS and He does not find any unexpected good or bad outside of anything that He has planed in any one soul. I believe that perhaps WE, with our own thought process, consider that any one of those[our] thoughts, maybe outside of what The Creator had in store for each individual to produce is...well "free will" thinking, which has no merit, at least in scripture. Now should you believe that the first man was outside of the Creators Will, then maybe man's will is the greater will....I do not. :2c:
Our minds..each of our minds are unique( one and only; single; sole)having nothing or equal in a decision as He offers/produces the cause and circumstance from what we make for our choice. Every hair is numbered and every star is named......does anyone really believe that Our Father does not KNOW how each of us will react to the CAUSE HE produces?  :2c:
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 04:18:09 AM by micah7:9 »
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #276 on: June 14, 2015, 05:21:37 AM »
I personally do not believe the Creator is anywhere near upset as to how each of His individual creations react to any given situation.
A Truth, HE KNOWS and He does not find any unexpected good or bad outside of anything that He has planed in any one soul. I believe that perhaps WE, with our own thought process, consider that any one of those[our] thoughts, maybe outside of what The Creator had in store for each individual to produce is...well "free will" thinking, which has no merit, at least in scripture. Now should you believe that the first man was outside of the Creators Will, then maybe man's will is the greater will....I do not. :2c:
Our minds..each of our minds are unique( one and only; single; sole)having nothing or equal in a decision as He offers/produces the cause and circumstance from what we make for our choice. Every hair is numbered and every star is named......does anyone really believe that Our Father does not KNOW how each of us will react to the CAUSE HE produces?  :2c:

Amen!! Yes, when He put the tree of good and evil in the garden He knew what would happen.

CHB

CHB

Offline lastpost

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #277 on: June 14, 2015, 06:40:48 AM »
"O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.
You know when I sit down or stand up.
You know my thoughts even when I'm far away
"

There is no thought more comforting to the soul than his Saviour being inside and outside of every situation in which His little ones could be. He always waits for the response to His Call. The Lord is within and without. He follows His lost sheep into the valley.

Knowing and being pleased are two different matters.

Is the Lord pleased when His child steals or kills against His Will? Personally, I think not. Does He know what will happen. Yes.

Is the Lord pleased when His child does not do these things and obeys His Will? Personally I think yes. Does He know what will happen. Yes.


In my opinion, man must learn that he cannot escape his personal responsibility to think and act and will in accordance with God's own Will. That is why He has laws that are designed to teach his children as to their ways...

        "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven...For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."
        Luke 6:37

        "...be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that he shall also reap..."
        Gal.6:7

        "...every man's work shall be made manifest...if any man's work abide...he shall receive a reward. If any man's work be burned (destroyed) he shall suffer loss..."
        1 Cor.3:13-15

        "...that everyone may receive the things done in the body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
        2 Cor.5:10

        "...God will render to every man according to his deeds..."
        Rom.2:6

        "For he that does a wrong shall receive the wrong he has done, there is no favouritism"
        Col.3:25

        "...The Son of man...shall reward every man according to his works..."
        Matt.16:27

        "...And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's work/labour (ergon) ..."
        1 Peter 1:17

        "...And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man as his work shall be."
        Rev.22:12

        "...dead were judged according to their works..."
        Rev.20:12


Man must learn to use his will properly so that he does not abuse it: "Thy Will be done, not my will be done".

That is just my opinion.

Peace







« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 06:52:03 AM by lastpost »
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one". "Christ is like leaven for the entire mass, and having made that which was damned one with himself, frees the whole from damnation".

Gregory of Nazianzu

Offline Dandelion

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #278 on: June 14, 2015, 08:14:51 AM »
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2

Nice post, lastpost.  :thumbsup:
7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Matthew 7:7 -8

Offline CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #279 on: June 14, 2015, 11:34:35 PM »
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2

Nice post, lastpost.  :thumbsup:

For it is [/b]God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/b]

CHB

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #280 on: June 14, 2015, 11:38:22 PM »
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2

Nice post, lastpost.  :thumbsup:

For it is [/b]God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/b]

CHB

 :thumbsup:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Caffus

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #281 on: June 16, 2015, 07:25:57 AM »
Ok so we have a self will but God can influence it when ever He chooses and He uses what ever we choose for good in the end knowing all before hand.  Like in the story of Jonah He used his disobedience to be a symbolic story of Christs death and resurrection as he was in the whale three days as Jesus was in the tomb. Of course this doesn't excuse disobedience because we should desire to please Him...but its also Him that gives us faith and the desire to please Him.     
The Truth will set you free! 😃

Offline CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #282 on: June 16, 2015, 08:10:07 PM »
If we have a self will where did we get it? It always goes back to the main source, God. How do we do anything outside of the will of God? It is impossible unless we are more powerful than God is.

CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #283 on: June 16, 2015, 11:02:05 PM »
Kind of like......even if we were to give God lemons, He can make lemonade, since He made the lemons, water, and sugar.
 
 He is working all things together for good.

 This is impossible with man, but with God, all things are possible.     :dsunny:

Offline lastpost

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #284 on: June 16, 2015, 11:09:35 PM »
All things with God are possible.

Man tends to imagine that God thinks like he himself thinks.

Man thinks that God is not capable of creating life that can think free for itself.

Man forgets that God is God and can do anything He wishes.

If God can create life that is able to think free for itself, that is God's choice, not man's choice.

God is Spirit.

Man is made in God's Image.

Man is made of God but in a fragmentary way.

Through Christ all things were made.

Christ is the light that lights up every man that comes into the world.

God is at the centre of every man.

God is within, and God is transforming man's will to His own Will.

Yet also it is God's pleasure that this happens by His children conforming their wills to His Will.

He lets man do this. He wants man to do this. He Wills man to do this.

God's Will is that man shall conform his will to His Will.

God gives far more lavishly than man with his own limited generosity allows.

When man opposes God's Will, evil results, and the God who is Love is crucified. This is the God who is Love.

Man is keen to say that God is Love and yet he limits God's Love as to His most loving gift of precious individual life.

Man needs to learn to give the Creator more credit as to His ability to create.

 
In Christ think Peace, give Peace, be Peace
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one". "Christ is like leaven for the entire mass, and having made that which was damned one with himself, frees the whole from damnation".

Gregory of Nazianzu

Offline ed

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #285 on: June 16, 2015, 11:57:10 PM »
All things with God are possible.

Man tends to imagine that God thinks like he himself thinks.

Man thinks that God is not capable of creating life that can think free for itself.

Man forgets that God is God and can do anything He wishes.

If God can create life that is able to think free for itself, that is God's choice, not man's choice.

God is Spirit.

Man is made in God's Image.

Man is made of God but in a fragmentary way.

Through Christ all things were made.

Christ is the light that lights up every man that comes into the world.

God is at the centre of every man.

God is within, and God is transforming man's will to His own Will.

Yet also it is God's pleasure that this happens by His children conforming their wills to His Will.

He lets man do this. He wants man to do this. He Wills man to do this.

God's Will is that man shall conform his will to His Will.

God gives far more lavishly than man with his own limited generosity allows.

When man opposes God's Will, evil results, and the God who is Love is crucified. This is the God who is Love.

Man is keen to say that God is Love and yet he limits God's Love as to His most loving gift of precious individual life.

Man needs to learn to give the Creator more credit as to His ability to create.

 
In Christ think Peace, give Peace, be Peace
:iagree:

Offline rosered

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #286 on: June 17, 2015, 12:36:14 AM »
 :iagree:    Amen !
 
  Let the  Holy  Spirit  move in ways and wonders that we have long since forgotten and lost ....
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #287 on: June 17, 2015, 03:55:52 AM »


If God can create life that is able to think free for itself, that is God's choice, not man's choice.

Yes, but that is a scary thought once you really think about it.

Yet also it is God's pleasure that this happens by His children conforming their wills to His Will.

So, do we take credit for this if we are conforming to his will?

Just asking.

CHB

Offline Caffus

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #288 on: June 17, 2015, 05:33:49 AM »
I believe He conforms our will to His..by the things He causes and or allows to happen in our lives and that we definitely can't take credit.
The Truth will set you free! 😃

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #289 on: June 17, 2015, 07:12:17 AM »
There is no credit but to Him,

'Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor,

awho has given to Him that He should repay"
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com

Offline lastpost

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #290 on: June 17, 2015, 09:41:06 AM »
Good Morning.

To me, the concept of "taking credit", in my opinion, is a red herring.

Man has become so used to separating himself from His God through "sin", that man considers himself a separate entity to God. Man has blotted out God but God has not blotted out man, and waits and waits upon His Call.

God has always been with man and in man. Man's life exists because the life in him is of God. The children of God have been given individuality by God, hence they are His, of Him.

"Taking credit" for the power and life of God has no meaning.

"Taking credit" is a concept belonging to the lesser self.

"Taking credit" is of the world.

When the child of God has experienced those moments of communion with the God who is Love, in those moments the child of God knows something, even a little, of the Joy of having the power and the Love of God move in his being - but it is enough to permit him to know in Whom he has his being, and Whose Being is in him.

At those moments the child of God is moving in Him - and He is moving in the child of God. These moments are moments, because the benefits of the earth life are too valuable to waste, and temptations and tests must be met and overcome.

It is precisely the Joy of knowing the God who is Love - the Joy of feeling His power in ones very being, as being the real life - that removes all that is attached to the lower self (the baser side of man created through the separation of sin) so that it no longer has any meaning - and with the communion of the child of God with his God, any possible notion of "taking credit" is simply not a point of consideration - it belongs in a different sphere, it belongs to man's thinking.

"Taking credit" belongs to man's thinking that wants to take unthinkable Divine Love and "think" It into a compartment, which is something he has needed to do from ancient times when he considered evil things to be not only normal but desirable, a time when any more Divine understanding of the One Supreme God was impossible due to his earthy state, long before the higher revelations of the God who is Love were brought with the physical appearance of the Christ of God in Jesus.

When the child of God experiences God moving in and through him, he knows that his very being belongs to God, he feels the power of God, in miniature, pulsing through his spiritual body and he is uplifted in the form of something nearer to God's Will for him.

It is only man's thinking that such a state should be frightening, when really it is the most beautiful and wonderful state that a human being will reach while still in the flesh, and this being but the smallest indication of what God has in store for His child - the CHILD OF GOD.

The willing cooperation of the child of God with his God, is the complete union - the union is complete. It is what God desires with His child with a yearning far exceeding man's present capacity to take in, except in the smallest way. Even we mere humans with our extremely limited and often selfish ideas of love compared to the Divine Love of God, have the capacity within us to know this union even now.

This is just my opinion.


All is Peace in God
"A few drops of blood renew the whole world, and become for all men that which rennet is for milk, uniting and drawing us into one". "Christ is like leaven for the entire mass, and having made that which was damned one with himself, frees the whole from damnation".

Gregory of Nazianzu

Offline rosered

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #291 on: June 17, 2015, 01:04:26 PM »

 
  I believe it is  a given  ,  in order to  have a relationship    with the Lord there is obedience  and that is not credited to you   whatsoever
 its a given  , you cannot just hear    and that is it , the  obedience is   the very action of hearing
 But first  there has to be some kind of spiritual awakening ...
 
 I only say this because of the parable Jesus   spoke of  as an  unworthy servant  and the  apostles   put this in the spotlight  as the "rejected branch"   
  Even Jesus said the lukewarm  "member " will be spewed out of His mouth   , or rejected
 as not  up to the standard  or test     and" in the race"   , you are to do  as you are told   to do  , it is your     your job or duty and responsibility  TO DO  as you are taught   ...  obedience is better than sacrifice    ...  the sacrifice   is already    done in Jesus Christ   and  a thankful  and worthy   servant   and though a son  Honors   his Mother and Father    , being the New   creation   that does praise God     
 
you are to be praised for doing what you are supposed to be doing in the first place    ?
 
 
 Luke  17  The apostles said to the Lord, "Show us how to increase our faith."

The Lord answered, "If you had faith even as small as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, 'May you be uprooted and thrown into the sea,' and it would obey you!

"When a servant comes in from plowing or taking care of sheep, does his master say, 'Come in and eat with me'? No, he says, 'Prepare my meal, put on your apron, and serve me while I eat.

 Then you can eat later.'

And does the master thank the servant for doing what he was told to do? Of course not. In the same way, when you obey me you should say, 'We are unworthy servants who have simply done our duty.'

   For me this explains    two things   Jesus   told us to do  , one is   when, Lord did we see you ?and He said  , when I was hungry you fed Me and    when I was
 thirsty you gave me drink and a stranger you took me in     etc ,   to the least of these "little ones"    you have DONE it unto Me   
 
and the other is  If you give a cup of cold water  to these little ones   in the name of a disciple , you will not loose your reward    , this  being to me , loose your place   in Gods kingdom  , or   IS to say   "remain  in the Body of Christ "    the LIVING   WAY ...
 



" As Jesus continued on toward Jerusalem, he reached the border between Galilee and Samaria. As he entered a village there, ten lepers stood at a distance, crying out, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"

He looked at them and said, "Go show yourselves to the priests." And as they went, they were cleansed of their leprosy.

One of them, when he saw that he was healed, came back to Jesus, shouting, "Praise God!" He fell to the ground at Jesus' feet, thanking him for what he had done. This man was a Samaritan.

Jesus asked, "Didn't I heal ten men? Where are the other nine? Has no one returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?" And Jesus said to the man, "Stand up and go. Your faith has healed you."
       
 
  This   speaks volumes to me     ,    I  believe   that though they  , the 10 thought they were healed   , and they were physically   or outwardly    appeared   "cleansed "   they were NOT WHOLE  ...    it was the one who came to praise God   for his healing   and  fell at his feet  , that is to me as being   "faithful "' learned of Jesus teaching     and  worshipped the    Lord in Spirit and truth      that become   whole and complete  /perfect        healed inside and out   
 
  This one  out of the 9     received    COMPLETE HEALING FOR BEING " OBEDIENT  IN FAITH '     just being' '  faithful in a little  thing     "     received    more  , much more than  just  the  mercy    of GOD . Matt 5   
 This One  is an example of obedience"  as to use his faith  "    being the mercy of God ,    faithfully .
 
 What of the other 9  than ?  Did they  use the mercy of God  on themselves    faithfully ?
 
 Were they considered justified ?     Were they righteous in Gods  sight ?   
 
I only see one  made   righteous    and believe    it was  in Gods will that  , he alone did what was right ,  as to thanking God and willing  for  change  , learn of Jesus  and at his feet  and loving  back what Gods love showed him personally  .  he was healed and  done nothing but asked  in the right heart ..

  So  for me  ,  the other 9 were  deceiving their own hearts  ...     
 
 James Hearing and Doing
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

26If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man's religion is worthless.


 27Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
 
   
 I can only  think its letting everyone know   the source of your own healing  , being  thankful  to Him and loyal  to Him  by faith and  showing those whom need mercy   as to  point to Jesus Christ      that He  being lifted up will draw all  men unto Himself ..   
 
 
 
   
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline ed

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #292 on: June 17, 2015, 03:28:06 PM »


If God can create life that is able to think free for itself, that is God's choice, not man's choice.

Yes, but that is a scary thought once you really think about it.

I did think about it too.  I thought about God creating a man with free will, knowing that the man would run into adversity, because it was set up that way in the garden.  I thought about after the man chose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God did put limits on the man of freewill.  We have limits, but as lastpost said, we can find communion with God, and not without effort on our part..........................I think that there certainly are times when every avenue has been exhausted, and the realization that God is sovereign invades our running, the only effort we put into that was running.  Dragged back is what I am.  I run, but the realization of God I have never forsaken.  It is a personal choice with me, I prefer to believe, because I have tasted that the fruit of the spirit is indeed where true life is.





So, do we take credit for this if we are conforming to his will?

I am given credit for believing.  When I was young I "bought the feild", and sought God with tears and prayer.  I did those things until the reward of peace was finally given........I "wrestled with God".

Do "I" get credit?  God was always there, but God was lost to me in the doctrines that were ingrained in my soul.  The soul cleansing was entirely God's work, but I had to move to make it happen.........for my choice to move, God rewarded my with peace. 

Should I take credit?  There is always a remembrance of the victories of my youth, that help me to stay grounded in the present.  How did I get those victories?  How was I involved?  How do the victories of the past influence my choices in the present?   

Time to clock into work...............great stuff in this thread.


Offline Dandelion

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #293 on: June 17, 2015, 03:59:49 PM »
As a Lutheran, I was taught that we can only say 'no' to God of our own, because we are dead in our sins.

Only through the Holy Spirit, can we say yes. I believe God calls all of us, all of the time, to be one with Him, no matter our background or belief system.

In Romans 10, we are told this:

12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?


We are also told that faith comes by hearing the word of God, in other verses, too.

What sparks us to take that step? I believe there must be a step of acceptance on our part.

'Blessed are those who believe, yet have not seen.'

Running to work, but when I get back, late this evening, I will spend some time on this.

Good point, Ed.  :declare:

 :2c:

So, an addendum to yesterday.....

I believe God knows all, and knows what we will do in any situation, but, to me, that has nothing to do with free will. It has to do with Him not living in time and space, as we do.

I am thinking of Adam and Eve in the garden, and eating the apple. They made a choice, and were free to do so.

I think in many ways, we are here, first, to give God glory, but, another aspect of our lives on earth is to learn who we are and to make constant choices, which are the journey of our lives. God uses the journey to teach us, and prepare us for eternity.  He knows what is in our hearts, and puts us in situations, environments, surrounds us with certain people, etc. which shape our lives, but within that, we do have choices to make.

Just a few more thoughts, on this topic.



 

« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 02:47:59 PM by Dandelion »
7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Matthew 7:7 -8

Offline CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #294 on: June 17, 2015, 07:22:48 PM »
There is no credit but to Him,

'Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor,

awho has given to Him that He should repay"

Amen!!

CHB

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #295 on: June 18, 2015, 08:43:34 AM »
There is no credit but to Him,

'Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor,

awho has given to Him that He should repay"

Amen!!

CHB

:o)
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. www.hellisamyth.com