Discussions Relating to Universal Reconciliation > Christian Life

Jesus Wants His Body Back (Worth Another Read)

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--- Quote from: redhotmagma on April 11, 2011, 07:25:50 PM ---Excellent post.

One question I have as I contemplate this is how does the ecclesia function, with the posts of elders, overseers?  Which are given by Paul.  He obviously set up some structure, how does it work without becoming institutionalized?  what does that look like?

--- End quote ---

 :cloud9: Great post by Reformer, AMEN  :thumbsup:

How does it function? It functions like HIM. He IS, the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher, ie. when He ascended, He gave gifts unto men. The gifts He gave when He ascended, are not the men standing in these offices, but rather the portion (earnest) of CHRIST, that operates AS that gift, THROUGH man. Knowing Christ is the first step; knowing who Christ is IN YOU, is the second step, and that comes by revelation of the Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit are His "personality"; the gifts of the Spirit are the "works" that personality DOES.

The Kingdom of God IS, righteousness, peace and joy. The Kingdom is a nature, a character, a state of being. The Kingdom is within you, and the evidence that it is, manifests in ALL the above mentioned ways. Blessings....


1 Tim 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
oregomai <3713>

oregomai oregomai

Pronunciation:   or-eg'-om-ahee
Origin:   middle voice of apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary [cf 3735]
Reference:   TDNT - 5:447,727
PrtSpch:   v
In Greek:   oregetai 1, oregomenoi 1, oregontai 1
In NET:   aspires 1, reaching for 1, they aspire 1
In AV:   desire 2, covet after 1
Count:   3
Definition:   1) to stretch one's self out in order to touch or to grasp
something, to reach after or desire something
2) to give one's self up to the love of money
middle voice of apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary
(compare 3735); to stretch oneself, i.e. reach out after (long
for):-covet after, desire.
see GREEK for 3735

bishop, overseer
episkope <1984>

episkoph episkope

Pronunciation:   ep-is-kop-ay'
Origin:   from 1980
Reference:   TDNT - 2:606,244
PrtSpch:   n f
In Greek:   episkophn 1, episkophv 3
In NET:   appears 1, office of overseer 1, position of responsibility 1, visitation 1
In AV:   visitation 2, bishoprick 1, office of a bishop 1
Count:   4
Definition:   1) investigation, inspection, visitation
1a) that act by which God looks into and searches out the
ways, deeds character, of men, in order to adjudge them
their lot accordingly, whether joyous or sad
1b) oversight
1b1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder
1b2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church
from 1980; inspection (for relief); by implication, superintendence;
specially, the Christian "episcopate":-the office of a "bishop",
bishoprick, visitation.
see GREEK for 1980

There doesn't seem to be much evidence for bishop being an office in the new testament, if you follow [1980] its definitely visitation.  But if you follow the word back to the Hebrew, half the time it seems to imply an office.
p@quddah <06486>

hrqp p@quddah

Pronunciation:   pek-ood-daw'
Origin:   pass part of 06485
Reference:   TWOT - 1802a
PrtSpch:   noun feminime
In Hebrew:   Mtdqp 11, tdqp 5, tdqpw 3, twdqp 3, Ktdqp 2, Mtdqpl 1, Mtdqpw 1, Ktdqpw 1, hdqph 1, wtdqp 1, hdqpl 1, hdqp 1
In NET:   punish 4, responsibility 3, judgment 2, assigned 2, punished 2, reckoning 2, assigned responsibilities 1, destruction 1, divisions 1, appointed 1, accountant 1, duties 1, appointed over 1, job 1, overseer 1, oversight 1, punishment 1, muster 1, stored up 1, guards 1, intervention 1, fate 1
In AV:   visitation 13, office 5, charge 2, oversight 2, officers 2, orderings 1, account 1, custody 1, numbers 1, misc 4
Count:   32
Definition:   1) oversight, care, custody, mustering, visitation, store
1a) visitation, punishment
1b) oversight, charge, office, overseer, class of officers
1c) mustering
1d) store
feminine passive participle of 6485; visitation (in many
senses, chiefly official):-account, (that have the) charge,
custody, that which...laid up, numbers, office(-r), ordering,
oversight, + prison, reckoning, visitation.
see HEBREW for 06485

I've read where it was more of a protector role, helping out the body, perhaps even advocating for it in a sense.  Might it have had at least something to do with the times, the persecution of the church?  Possibly..not sure.  I personally just don't see it as a "this is my church and I'll run it how I want - sit down and listen".  I realize most pastors aren't quite that obvious or forceful, but still, the whole institutionalization of it and the possible ramifications of that are an issue for me personally.   

It's a good question, i.e., what did that early set-up really look like compared to today's salaried professionals.  Paul certainly did address "how to behave in the ecclesia", but we may have a dim view of the context he was dealing with at the time.   :2c:

Another interesting related note is when John said (1st or 2nd chapter?) "you have no need of any man to teach you"...we're also told the Holy Spirit would lead us into all truth.

Quite a bit to consider...

What ever my  :2c: is worth, I believe that His Body is just where it is supposed to be and not one iota is out of line or out of place. Just because we (mankind) and believers, find empty spaces where "we think" there ought to be, is quite minimal. Jesus is building, bringing His Body together on His timetable for His age.


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