Jesus is the Father Part II

[Peacetroll]

2 Chronicles 36:15
And the LORD God of their fathers sent to them by his messengers, rising up betimes, and sending; because he had compassion on his people, and on his dwelling place:

 Jeremiah 44
4Howbeit I sent unto you all my servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, Oh, do not this abominable thing that I hate.

 5But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear to turn from their wickedness, to burn no incense unto other gods.

Matthew 23:34
Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Malachi 3
 1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

 3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

 4Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

5And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.

6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Matthew 14:27
But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.


Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Matthew 11:10
For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

John 1:
 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

John 8:12
 12Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 12:46
 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 14:9 (King James Version)
 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

[Paul Hazelwood]

None of those state that Jesus is God "THE FATHER"


Why did Jesus  say   "I come to do the will of MY FATHER"

Why did he not say " I came to do the will of myself,  or even   say I came to do MY WILL?


You still have not answered WHY, Jesus did not say that the Father is Greater than myself?

[Molly]

Who do you think the Father is, Paul?

Does he have a name?

[Molly]

Malachi 3
 1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.




Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

[97531]

Who do you think the Father is, Paul?

Does he have a name?

many

Almighty, Everlasting God

[Molly]

17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

--John 10



Acts 3:26
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

[Molly]

Who do you think the Father is, Paul?

Does he have a name?

many

Almighty, Everlasting God

So you think he is the LORD of the Old Testament?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Who do you think the Father is, Paul?

Does he have a name?

God the Father is  The Father.   Jesus is the son, not Jesus is the Father.   What name you can equate to being spiritually one is not equal to Jesus being the father.


God has many names, Jesus is the son, equal to the father spiritually but is not the same person.   

Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may be giving you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the realization of Him,

God is both the GOD AND FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Is Jesus his own father?

Jn 16:27 for the Father Himself is fond of you, seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I came out from God.



Is Jesus going back into himself?  There is a clear distinction in entities here.

Jn 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I am leaving the world and am going to the Father."



Jn 15:1  "I am the true Grapevine, and My Father is the Farmer

[Peacetroll]

Have you considered these verses, and what Jesus is saying?

Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

John 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

 14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

John 16:2422And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

 23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

 24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

 25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

 26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

 27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

 29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

 30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

 31Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Have you considered these verses, and what Jesus is saying?

What Jesus is saying is the process by which things work.  What I see is a distinction between two persons acting perfectly in one accord.

Is this a contradiction?"

"I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).


Jn 14:28 You hear that I said to you,  `I am going, and I am coming to you.'  If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.



Note in John 10:30,  Jesus says  "WE"  from the greek  "eimi"   Plural

[Peacetroll]

He, the human being God lived in went to and sat down at the right hand of the Father-Power-of God.   He Jesus was the mind, wisdom, and Glory of God.  Why else would this have been written?

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 4:15
For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

Philippians 2:11
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 15:8
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Revelation 21:11
Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Revelation 21:23
And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

[Molly]

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

--1 Tim 3

[Paul Hazelwood]

God was manifest in the flesh,   God and Jesus are one,  the spiritual mystery is how God can manifest into the flesh and have a son that is not the father.


The problem is that both of you are ignoring the questions raised by Jesus words drawing a distinctive different between him and the father.   What is the purpose of that distinction if there is none?


It is not unreasonable to ask that you reconcile the problem here, posting scripture is fine, but none of the scripture declare that Jesus is the father,  I have proven that Isaiah 9:6 that is used to say that is translated wrongly and that was the cornerstone to peacetrolls thread title.

The scriptures indeed proves that Jesus was not just a man,  and was not just some prophet. 



So, Is Jesus his own Father?   

[Molly]

Because the Father is Spirit, and the Son is flesh and blood.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Because the Father is Spirit, and the Son is flesh and blood.

So Jesus is no longer the son now?

[WhiteWings]

That trinity stuff is a bit like smoke and mirrors to me. But this is what I found.

Genesis 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness ....
=> Our so there is more that one. Can mean anything.

1 John 5:7  For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
=> Three things are one. The Son/Jesus is missing; so my guess is he is called Word in this verse.

John 8:24 .... for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 10:25-30  .... the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me .... My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all ... I and my Father are one.
=> so the fathers is greater than all but still He's the same person as the Son/Jesus. That makes them equal to me.

John 17:21-22  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee ... that they may be one, even as we are one:
=> not to mean disrespectful but it makes me thing of black and white paint that are mixed to grey. The black and white still is there but in essence it's just grey.

John 20:28-29 Thomas said .... My Lord and my God.
=> Thomas called Jesus God and Jesus didn't rebuke him so He agreed.


Luke 6:5  And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
=> God commanded the sabbath long before this verse.



John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Word = God => made flesh = begotten of the father = Son = Jesus. Jesus is God in the flesh

Personally I would say there is just 1 person. Just like I'm flesh with a certain personality.
But then we get in conflict with verses the many times Jesus speaks to His Father. Just like they are not one.
(makes we wonder if the powers of God where decreased while Jesus was on earth)

From the quotes above I would say that there can be several views but all of them can be disproved by the combination of verses.
I think it's very important to have the exact definition of 'being one'
The Bible describes that after marriage both partners are one. But we all know from daily experience they stay 2 separate persons.
There is a lot of difference between being really one or being one like a couple or a team.
I also think the Father, Son thing shouldn't be taken literally but just a way to explain things to complex to understand.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I do not think it is that complex, I think the closed trinity is a false doctrine that is unscriptural and completely illogical.   That illogic is used to promote its truth because of course  it is so complex that it must be true. 

The bias that brings to people working through it have a hard time understanding Gods spiritual simplicity.

God is a family, we will all be one with him, harmonized perfectly, yet each of us individuals with unique qualities that do not intermix to roles that have not been given to us.

We cannot be our own father, Jesus is not his own father, Everything is subject to the Father.  Scripture does not say that God the Father is subject to God the Father.


Isaiah 9:6 is not about how many translations there are saying Jesus is the everlasting Father,  the hebrew in that verse doesn't contain words that are properly translated to that phrase.

[Molly]

Psalm 48:10
According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.


Isaiah 41:10
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.





55But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

--Acts 7

[WhiteWings]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=MPLgjFxfVb4
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=S3z7PrzQDwE
http://www.angelfire.com/journal2/adrianbiblestudents/trinityfalsedoctrine.html

Paul is this link explaining the same concept as you did 2 message above?
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm
I hope I don't get banned for posting a carm link... :)