Author Topic: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!  (Read 1200 times)

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Offline Nancy

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Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« on: August 01, 2009, 11:56:39 PM »
Hi there all my brothers and sisters,

I have to write this as it made me cringe with incredulity.  I bought an old book by James A. Pike entitled Beyond Anxiety. In a chapter entitled Frustration he states "Some people faced with tragedy piously say, "Well, it's the will of God, and I must bear it".  He also states that it is religiously wrong and blasphemous to say this about God!!!
Well Isaiah must have been really blasphemous then when he was made (by the Spirit)to say of God "I form good and create evil".
Even Our Lord said that Pilate couldn't have the authority to have Jesus killed if it wasn't given to him by God. And you only have to read Job to know who was to be held to account in his life.
Why do people think that they are shielding God from what the bible clearly states of God?!!!!!!

Godbless
Nancy

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2009, 12:02:36 AM »
Because religion is the eldest child of Satan and has many children.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2009, 12:30:47 AM »
Why do people think that they are shielding God from what the Bible clearly states of God?!!!!!!

The less responsiblity the sinner has the less ET can be defended.
I think they are shielding their ET thoughts. But many just repeat what they heard from others instead of read for themselfs.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

martincisneros

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 01:31:13 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly with the author of that book!  Even contextually, the interpretation that makes Him my devil doesn't work with the worst translations on that that I've seen.  See Robert Young's "Hints to Bible Interpretation."  You can't even get any of my Karaite relatives to buy into that nonsense that God is evil.  They'd chase you out of their house with a gun over such paganism! :cloud9:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 07:44:03 AM »
Nancy, not sure about the the book, the author, and I believe many have extreme (not Biblically substantiated) views one way or the other on the topic. 

In Job 4, Job says [due to God's dealings with him by allowing the adversary to buffet him - "have you considered my servant Job?"] that he understands better the marvelous power of God, and is sorry he has spoken with insufficient understanding.

Now the LORD blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning (Job 42:12)

I think we can veer way off in either direction;  jumping through hoops to try to take God off the hook so we can attempt to reconcile our preconceived theological beliefs, or going so far the other direction that, if not careful, we could impugn God's good, loving character and His intentions to redeem us all.   

In my admittedly dim view, God takes responsibility for much, but holds us accountable for much...and in so doing, by humbling us and teaching us, brings our wills into His, and displays His Supreme loving-kindness - 

"For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."  Romans 11:28
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 02:22:57 AM by jabcat »

Offline Nancy

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Martin how would you interpret that line then?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 07:26:59 PM »
Hi there Martin,
How would you interpret the line that Isaiah says of God "I form good and create evil, etc?
God had to create evil as everything comes out of God, has it's life in God, is sustained by God.  Surely if God could stop all evil from happening but He doesn't, isn't He collaborating with it or allowing it? And if He doesn't stop it why?
How would you answer Jesus when He said to Pilate, "you wouldn't have authority to kill me UNLESS the Father allowed it? " Surely if its' happening, it's God will, as Jesus also said "Not my will but Yours."

I feel more comforted knowing that though experiencing evil, God has some hand in it and i am not at the mercy of others or devils, etc.

Godbless
Nancy

Offline Cardinal

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 09:08:30 PM »
 :cloud9: My  :2c:  His WILL towards us IS only good. But because He can see the end from the beginning He also knows what will get us where He wants us to go, and so the scripture, ALL things work together for good for those that love the Lord. Blessings...
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sheila

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2009, 07:56:38 PM »


   God is not evil..but neither is HE IGNORANT OF EVIL

   He knows how to deal with it, and desires HIS CHILDREN

   TO GET THE MASTERY OVER IT,AS WELL.

   He allows it only as a 'teaching tool'. He prescribes both it's

  limits and end.


   It is a subtil beast...His children can and do 'handle serpents'

   He speaks of a time when a child will place his hand

  in a cobra's nest.


   He desires we be cautious as  a serpent[knowledge of]

  yet innocent as doves....and it IS HIM that has placed us

  in this 'learning' ground...and HE IS IN TOTAL CONTROL


   and HE HAS SET THE LIMITS TO IT'S DESTRUCTIVE NATURE

  THAT IT BE A TEMPORAL THING ONLY

   THAT THE WHOLE CREATION BE DELIVERED FROM IT

   THAT IT GO INTO OBLIVION


  THAT LOVE :HeartThrob: NEVER FAIL

Offline rosered

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2009, 08:23:09 PM »
 
  good Word   Jab , Card and Shelia , :icon_flower:  Nancy good question dear ! :thumbsup:
  I was thinking about that tree of knowledge of good and evil , that was in the garden and forbidden  by God for Adam and Eve to eat
  yet they did  and that is when their eyes were opened and to be as gods to know good and evil 
and to  know it as "One of us ",it says

 

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
 
to me this is where GOD being   good was merciful to stop Him for eating from the Tree of Life in   this state of being 

   and as Far as unclean lips of Isaiah goes the coals were a gift of God also to purify his newfound "  purpose  in God 's will to prophesy"
 the Truth to a lost and stubborn  generation of peoples ..

  :HeartThrob: rose
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 08:35:29 PM by rosered »
Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline rosered

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 08:45:00 PM »

 Hi Nancy ,
 
  just going into the  strongs on unclean and lips Strong's H2931 - tame' 
 Pronunciation

tä·mā' (Key)
 
Part of Speech
adjective

 
from H2930
 
Outline of Biblical Usage 1) unclean, impure

a) ethically and religiously

b) ritually

c) of places

 
 
 here is lips , with  lots of probables and it can mean a type of language
 Strong's H8193 - saphah שפה
Transliteration
saphah
 Pronunciation

sä·fä' (Key)
 
Part of Speech
feminine noun

 probably from H5595 or H8192 through the idea of termination (compare H5490)

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) lip, language, speech, shore, bank, brink, brim, side, edge, border, binding
a) lip (as body part)

b) language
c) edge, shore, bank (of cup, sea, river, etc)

 Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.  :icon_flower:
 
  now ,undone . wow !! thats something  because Isaiah had seen the Lord KING  he seems to mean he is  doomed in his  condition/state of existance !!!   to be changed and purposed in Gods will sort of Like Paul was on the Road to Damascus  and Job of course  :HeartThrob:
 
 
Strong's H1820 - damah דמה
Transliteration
damah
 Pronunciation

dä·mam' (Key)
 
Part of Speech
verb

a primitive root
 
 

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to cease, cause to cease, cut off, destroy, perish

a) (Qal)

1) to cease

2) to cause to cease, destroy

b) (Niphal)

1) to be cut off

2) to be undone, be cut off at sight of the theophany

Jesus is the reward  !!

Offline Doc

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 02:25:01 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly with the author of that book!  Even contextually, the interpretation that makes Him my devil doesn't work with the worst translations on that that I've seen.  See Robert Young's "Hints to Bible Interpretation."  You can't even get any of my Karaite relatives to buy into that nonsense that God is evil.  They'd chase you out of their house with a gun over such paganism! :cloud9:

Except that the literal translation of that passage does not make God evil. It only makes him the creator of it, like when He says "I have created the waster to destroy." Apart from God, nothing could exist that exists, including evil. God is not evil, but He created it and uses it for His good purposes, just like the author of any good story creates an antagonist to help drive the story.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline jabcat

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 02:22:25 AM »
Interesting take and good info on this topic found at the following.  Brief excerpt;

"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).

It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil"..."

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6497.msg70731#msg70731
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 02:38:22 AM by jabcat »

Offline Doc

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 03:52:43 AM »
Interesting take and good info on this topic found at the following.  Brief excerpt;

"Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage "I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these" (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites while the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good (tov in Hebrew) and evil (ra in Hebrew).

It should be noted that the English word "evil" has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word "evil"..."

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6497.msg70731#msg70731

Yes, I believe that it (ra) can also be translated "bad", among a number of other things, including calamity. Evil is perhaps not a good English equivalent.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

Offline jabcat

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Re: Isaiah must have been blasphemous then!!!
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 04:12:11 AM »
Yep.  It doesn't change the fact that God takes credit for it, I'm sure we still just need to understand it better (and accept Him for Who and What He says He Is  :thumbsup:).  That's my dim view, (Eye) Doc  :icon_rr:.