suffering trumps Gods omnipotence/omnibenevolence?

[WhiteWings]

all true tim, but if God can "change the rules" a little here and there, why didnt he "change" them in a way, that we could freely love and choose him, without enduring sin and the terrible atrocities that wreak upon humanity. To my mind, there is nothing else that is "logical" to bring about those things, without experiencing things of lesser "good" or evil to choose other than God...but, it still seems odd to me.

Very much agreed.

the only answer to my mind is that there was no other way to transform us how he wanted without the use of suffering...which would mean there is a limit like paul originally said. I guess im still uneasy with the thought that God actually has "limits" though

A lot less agreed
I think God had a zillion + 1 other options to transform us.
But that's a debate no one can win. And no one can prove. Just because we are to stupid

[NinjaWizards777]

but if there are more ways, then why didnt he chose such? particularly one without suffering? Does anyone see where Im going with this?

[Doc]

but if there are more ways, then why didnt he chose such? particularly one without suffering? Does anyone see where Im going with this?

There are probably some pretty complex metaphysical arguments out there that could answer your question. My hunch is that God knows exactly what He's doing, and suffering is part of the equation. We may not understand it, but that doesn't logically make it unnecessary.

On the other side of the question, I have heard it said that the problem of evil/ suffering can only be overcome by a God who can make good on all of it. Without the existence of a God of this nature (Go, UR!) We have no rational basis for any optimism or hope.

[WhiteWings]

but if there are more ways, then why didnt he chose such? particularly one without suffering? Does anyone see where Im going with this?

That is something I can't answer.
Question for you: Is God able to created 10 billion people of the same purity as Jesus?

[NinjaWizards777]

sure I suppose, but then without a state of brokeness its unlikely that we would have ever realize a need for God whatsoever. There must be very distinct reasons God created man imperfect (or allowed man to become imperfect, whichever way you slice your theological pie), that would lead to the best result for humankind and our ultimate relationship with God. And that is the only solution that my tiny human brain can conjure.

[Tim B]

All good points...however, I do have one little problem with this "God is only limited to logical things" theory, and that is the mircales and other super natural things in the bible. Heres a few examples off the top of my head

I'll try and help you out on these. 

"logically" planets cant be formed out of nothing

That's why the Big Bang Theory utterly fails if its suggested that nothing caused the Big Bang. However, planets wouldn't have formed out of nothing. They formed from God. The only sense in which planets were formed from nothing is only in the sense that they were not formed via prior or present materials when God created.

AFAIK the cause of the Big Bang is still a mystery to science. Perfect symmetry doesn't spontaniously break up.

What's "AFAIK" stand for? Also, while the Big Bang might be a mystery to science, using philosophy one can make a good case that suggests that only an eternal and personal being could bring a universe within time into existence. Of course, this is even assuming that the Big Bang is true. Scientific theories tend to be replaced quite a bit. xD

What was you're point about "perfect symmetry"? Unfortunately I didn't understand that part.

"logically" you cannot turn dust into a human being

I'm not sure that man actually came from what is exactly called "dust". Dust might just stand for the Earth, or materials chemically made from the Earth..

Adam means red earth.

He came from the Mars then!! lol j/k Thanks for the info. 

"logically" people dont walk on water

Well, the thing is, it's not logically impossible to walk on water if the laws of physics are messed with. Hence, there's nothing logically impossible about it. God just needs to "change the rules" if you will.

Actually, I can walk on water. Many people I know can.
[/quote] How do you walk on water? Blow up shoes? ;)

[sparrow]

To put all of my thoughts and beliefs on this subject into just a few overly simplified senteneces. I'd say that evil (which I see it to be nothing more than NON-love) needs to be exhausted. Once and for all. So we will cling to God (who is LOVE) for all eternity.
So we will truly, finally understand the supreme POWER of Love, (which IS God) and the utter futility of evil (which is NON-LOVE). We are all learning individually and as a whole, and every single life lived, EVERYONE will learn from. No life is ever in vain. No suffering is EVER unheard or suffered in VAIN. All suffering will be brought to light, and we will learn from it. In every way, shape and form POSSIBLE, we will learn the contrast between LOVE and NON-LOVE.
and we will CLING to our Wonderful Father for ALL eternity. And THAT is where the REAL learning about Him will start to take place. We'll have all eternity to explore Him. Just this natural earth is a small part of Him. I see everything in creation reflecting something of His nature. From little bugs to mountains, to majestic animals, everything. Every single person reflects SOMETHING of His nature. and that is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
In order to fully explore (and do whatever else we will be doing for all eternity) we need to first learn just WHO He is at His CORE. and that is LOVE! We would never be able to learn it without the contrast. He is thorough. This learning about love and non-love... He will let us exhaust every avenue of it. Remember, this isn't our real home.

[WhiteWings]

What's "AFAIK" stand for?

As Far As I Know

Also, while the Big Bang might be a mystery to science, using philosophy one can make a good case that suggests that only an eternal and personal being could bring a universe within time into existence. Of course, this is even assuming that the Big Bang is true. Scientific theories tend to be replaced quite a bit. xD

I think  the Big Bang is true. What if creation started with God pushing a big bang button.
Even Naimodes (spelling) saw something like that in the scripture. Something small a seed growing.

What was you're point about "perfect symmetry"? Unfortunately I didn't understand that part.

Can't really explain that without getting very longwinded.
Basicly there are 4 forces that manage everything. Gravity. Nuclear power, electromagnetism, decay.
Pre big bang they where all joined together. They could even be seen to represent the 4 horsemen
of apocalypse. http://www.abarim-publications.com/FourHorsesRevelation.html
The process of breaking that symmetry has lots of paralles with the the early books of OT. http://www.abarim-publications.com/GenesisStandardModel.html

Very interesting site I can send you in .pdf format.

Actually, I can walk on water. Many people I know can.

How do you walk on water? Blow up shoes? ;)[/quote]
Just wait until it's frozen 

[sparrow]

Just wait until it's frozen