Author Topic: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?  (Read 2454 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« on: March 20, 2010, 10:21:30 PM »
Now Im not trying to disprove the bible in any way, but Im wondering if everything that happened in the bible is necessarily an historical event or some of it being allegory with the purpose of representing a greater truth.  I've been told that the story of Adam and Eve is not necessarily an historical event, but an allegory for how man fell into sin at some point in history, due to a lie from the evil one.  Plus I am well aware of the fact that many stories, such as The Creation, the Fall, Noahs Ark, and the tower of Babel are very similar to some Near Eastern Myths, from Gilgamesh.  Plus many civilizations believed in some type of myth based on an area in ruin, like Sodom and Gomorrah.  Then I have been told that the Book of Joshua was not necessarily an historical event, but a story with truth to it.  Im not making any claims.

Offline Pierac

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2010, 12:25:00 AM »
It's both!

But much less historical than many would like to believe.  It's how God planned it!   :thumbsup:

Paul

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2010, 01:10:45 AM »
I appreciate the way you've framed this UC.  It's a tricky topic, and IMO, you've stated it well.  IMO, there's no need to not let the thread stand as is, but anyone wanting to post in it, please keep in mind TM's default setting regarding the scriptures.  

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7383.0

This still leaves room for legitimate discussions and wonderings, albeit with much discretion and discernment.

Also, please don't take personal offense if it's moderated heavily, because it could be, dependent upon the direction it takes.  The decision was made a long time ago that the admin would not let things even approach the level of strife and contention that existed before on the boards - especially with certain topics - and this could turn into one of 'em.   :bigGrin:   Thanks.
 

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2010, 01:13:44 AM »
I trust 100 percent of what the Lord has set in Holy Scriptures as The Way, The Truth and The Life.

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2010, 01:38:15 AM »
Galatians 4:21-5:1 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one out of the maid and one out of the free womam.
23 But the one, indeed, out of the maid is begotten according to flesh, yet the one out of the free woman through the promise:
24 which is allegorizing, for these women are two covenants; one, indeed, from mount Sinai, generating into slavery, which is Hagar.
25 Yet Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia; it is in line with the Jerusalem which now is, for she is in slavery with her children.
26 Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all.
27 For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband."
28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise.
29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now.
30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman.
1 For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery.

This passage reveals that the historical person Abraham (representing God) had two sons, the historical Ishmael (representing attempting to attain the the presence of the voice and approval of God in one's life by a disciplined path, specially by learning Scripture better and trying harder) and historical Issac (representing the freely given work of God, His gracious showing up and showing off in one's life.)  These two sons are from two historical women, Hagar and Sarah which in turn represent two historical covenants as well as two actual physically existing mountains (mountains represent kingdoms.)

Notice in the following passage from Hebrews how the difference between sons with a lawful inheritance and bastards, who are sons of the same Father, yet do not qualify as heirs, is determined by different mothers, the two women mentioned above, Hagar and Sarah.  The mother is the soul that concieves, a kingdom with certain laws in operation, and can even represent a group like a church.  What "Ecclesia" you are a part of makes a big difference.  " 15 Are you not aware that your bodies are members of Christ? Taking, then, the members of Christ away, should I be making them members of a prostitute? May it not be coming to that!  Or are you not aware that he who joins a prostitute is one body? For, He is averring, the two will be one flesh.  Now he who joins the Lord is one spirit." (1 Co 6:15-17, CLT)

Hebrews 12:3-11 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
3 For take into account the One Who has endured such contradiction by sinners while among them, lest you should be faltering, fainting in your souls.
4 Not as yet unto blood did you repulse, when contending against sin.
5 And you have been oblivious of the entreaty which is arguing with you as with sons: My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord, Nor yet faint when being exposed by Him.
6 For whom the Lord is loving He is disciplining, Yet He is scourging every son to whom He is assenting.
7 For discipline are you enduring. As to sons is God bringing it to you, for what son is there whom the father is not disciplining?
8 Now if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, consequently you are bastards and not sons.
9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living.
10 For these, indeed, disciplined for a few days as it seemed best to them, yet that One for our expedience, for us to be partaking of His holiness.
11 Now all discipline, indeed, for the present is not seeming to be a thing of joy, but of sorrow, yet subsequently it is rendering the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those exercised through it.

2 Corintians 11:1-3 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
1 Would that you had borne with any little imprudence of mine! Nay, and be bearing with me,
2 for I am jealous over you with a jealousy of God. For I betroth you to one Man, to present a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 Yet I fear lest somehow, as the serpent deludes Eve by its craftiness, your apprehensions should be corrupted from the singleness and pureness which is in Christ.

Our own lives are to be allegories that play out the truth of God and the gospel by which we are saved.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 01:42:48 AM by reFORMer »
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2010, 07:46:26 PM »
I think everything described is an historical event.
Assuming:
a] No copy/translation errors.
b] Correct interpretation.

Sofar no archeological finds contradicted the Bible.
If you look on Amazon you can find $0.75 books on archeolgy and the Bible.


Same for science. Yeah, science seems to point more and more to a creator. There might have been a time science might have pointed towards no Creator. But more 'recently' the loose ends seems to tie to a creator...

Quote
Plus many civilizations believed in some type of myth based on an area in ruin, like Sodom and Gomorrah.
There is more proof on Sodom and it's 4 sister cities than just the Bible. It's found in Egyptian records also. The wealth of the cities came from selling tar to Egypt.

The Bible reports Joshua's longest day. Chinese books report the longest night (other timezone)
Chinese books (and others) also report a Flood story with their own hero's in it.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 11:46:21 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 02:59:39 AM »
   I think it is not only historically accurate...

   I think it is presently accuarate[I have to but look around to see His word being fulfilled]

  and futurely accurate


        Sheila

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2010, 03:25:06 AM »
Amen Sister Sheila.

Offline sheila

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2010, 03:54:43 AM »
 :thumbsup:   Brotha!

Jerm

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2010, 07:01:53 AM »
Now Im not trying to disprove the bible in any way, but Im wondering if everything that happened in the bible is necessarily an historical event or some of it being allegory with the purpose of representing a greater truth.  I've been told that the story of Adam and Eve is not necessarily an historical event, but an allegory for how man fell into sin at some point in history, due to a lie from the evil one.  Plus I am well aware of the fact that many stories, such as The Creation, the Fall, Noahs Ark, and the tower of Babel are very similar to some Near Eastern Myths, from Gilgamesh.  Plus many civilizations believed in some type of myth based on an area in ruin, like Sodom and Gomorrah.  Then I have been told that the Book of Joshua was not necessarily an historical event, but a story with truth to it.  Im not making any claims.

I think it's both.  There are some stories that I do think are in fact allegories that are used to convey some spiritual meaning.  There are also other stories which described "historical events" but these too are also crafted to convey meaning.  I would compare to a modern day movie which tells about a real event.  Take Rudy for example.  The story that is portrayed in the movie is in fact true and is based on true events yet the writers crafted the story in order to convey certain messages.  True this includes some level of embelishment but by no means does that mean that we should just chuck to whole story out.  So to put is simply, I believe that Scripture is a wonderful mix of history, allegory, and metaphor but it's most important function is the fact that it points us to Christ. 

noname

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2010, 11:56:31 AM »
I think where people err is on the interpretation of the Bible...

example:

many believe that the earth was literally created in 6 days
evidence we find from fossils like Dinosaurs "disprove" this thinking as we have evidence that the earth has existed for a long long time already...that there was a thriving living world long before mankind was even placed here

BUT...this is where the interpretation part comes in...
God also tells us in the Bible that "one day is like a thousand years to Him and a thousand years like one day"
this for me explains a lot

so I'd say we always have to factor in the "facts on the ground" with belief

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2010, 12:09:14 PM »
I agree noname.
If you lookup the Hebrew word that day was translated from you will see it can have many different timespans.
According Jewish scholars it's very clear God changed the calendar when Adam was created.
A calendar of old that reaches back 5 'days' and the new calendar starts with Adam. Normal 24-hour days.
I don't know what verse is supposed to inform us of the change of the calendars.

Unfortunately the debate between Biblical interpretation and science has closed the minds of both camps.
Christians often seem to think science is a trick of satan to steal God (creational) glory.
I think science doesn't take away teh slightest bit of glory.
Yeah, when abused and misapplied it does. But Christianity is guilty of the same thing.
Neither the Bible or science is wrong but many interpretations (to push an agenda) are wrong.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 12:14:03 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

noname

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2010, 02:10:34 PM »
Unfortunately the debate between Biblical interpretation and science has closed the minds of both camps.
Christians often seem to think science is a trick of satan to steal God (creational) glory.
I think science doesn't take away teh slightest bit of glory.
I agree...what is science anyway but the discovery of the laws of Nature which are already there?...and always have been since the beginning

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2010, 02:26:58 PM »
I agree...what is science anyway but the discovery of the laws of Nature which are already there?...and always have been since the beginning
That's not really the problem for science. They have a quite good view on what happend when those laws went into effect. Their real problem is how/why it all started.
Basicly it's like this:
The big bang started out of nothing. That part could be right because God created out of nothing. Laws of nature came into effect a fraction of a second after that bigbang started. That nothing has been 'waiting' to explode. But that requires some sort of law to trigger it. But because that nothing has no laws an external trigger is needed. On this forum we all know the name of that trigger... Science is still searching for it :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

noname

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2010, 02:39:55 PM »
On this forum we all know the name of that trigger... Science is still searching for it :winkgrin:
hehehe...yes we do... :thumbsup:
many scientists are now abandoning the big bang theory and "evolving" to the "intelligent design theory"...where they acknowledge that a certain "force" must have "lit the match" so to speak for creation to get started

as an applied scientist myself this have been evident all along...the example that comes to mind is that you just cannot throw a few metals into the desert and after a 1000 years it "evolved" into a Rolex...there had to be someone who Engineered it all

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2010, 02:58:32 PM »
Quote
the example that comes to mind is that you just cannot throw a few metals into the desert and after a 1000 years it "evolved" into a Rolex
I heard that one as dump metal and plastic in a desert. Wait for a hurricane to assemble it into a fully functional 747. That the chance of "just lucky" we speak about.

But even if metal can evolve into a Rolex the mystery is: According to what law?
And if that question is answered: where did that law originate from?

Quote
many scientists are now abandoning the big bang theory and "evolving" to the "intelligent design theory"...
Never heard about that one. Seen several alternatives like steady state and ?? forgot the name (expands, contracts, expands, ...) and the plasma theory. But all of them bump into (other) problems.

And unwantingly science proved eternal can exist. And because of the nature of eternal a birth/creation moment of that eternal person/object is not needed.
You know the other half of the time dimension. And a few extra ones.
Just find a pattern to jump timelines and it's always holiday  :winkgrin:
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 03:18:10 PM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

noname

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2010, 03:08:34 PM »
Just find a pattern to just timelines and it's always holiday  :winkgrin:
hahaha...been searching for that one all my life :laughing7:

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2010, 10:03:23 PM »
It is true that much of the bible is symbolic, and should not be taken literally. 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2010, 10:33:04 PM »
It is true that much of the bible is symbolic, and should not be taken literally.

What's much? Most of it? Almost all of it? 10%? 50%? 90%?

Imo everything in it is symbolic like a parable. It points to deeper meanings etc.
But I think most things are also literal.
It all seems to be historical correct. (at least the things I was able to check)
The only book that's 'out of place' is Revelation. (parts like earthquakes and wormwood might be (also) literal)
 :2c: <-- my tithe in this topic
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline reFORMer

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2010, 10:47:32 PM »
A word I've shared here several times:
________________________________

The Bible, being a book of WORDS, is entirely symbolical! The letters "c-h-a-i-r" cannot be sat upon. They cast a SPELL in your consciousness to conjure up the awareness of a "chair." Depending on the extent of your development, as far as what Scripture produces in you (though more practically what the occasion calls for) this can evoke a carnal or worldly emphasis in an outer court interpretation of something for your body to _sit_ in; or, it may cause a thought of a psychological abstraction, a position in relation to a collegial body (corresponding to the holy place,) like the _chair_man of a department; or, something more spiritual in nature (the third realm of the tabernacle in analogy,) like what the implications are when God makes us who were dead to be alive and awakened "and _seats_ us together among the celestials (or, in the heavenlies,) in Christ Jesus..." (Eph 2:6)

Words are symbols; hence, the Bible, being a book of words, is entirely a book of symbols. There are various legitimate understandings of these symbols or words. Like the largely time oriented interpretations of the Book of Revelation: historicist, preterist, futurist, which are more literalist, and as well there are several ideal or spiritual interpretations:  symbolic, personal and corporate allegoric, and mystical or psychological -- all have some validity without being "the last word" on the meaning of the text. While we know what is meant by a "literal" interpretation, there can actually only be interpretation since we are dealing completely with symbols. I believe in each letter and every word of the original as directly God inspired.
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Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2010, 10:53:25 PM »
James, I've missed that before, thanks for sharing that again. Nice.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 10:57:21 PM by Beloved Servant »

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2010, 07:10:33 AM »
In the beginning was the logos...... the logos is the word/expressed thought of God including all things from Alpha to Omega

All things were created through Him.....    Jesus incorporates all the fulness from Alpha to Omega, physical and spiritual (for so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in Him)

He is the radiance of the Fathers glory and express image of His nature and all things hold together by the word of His power....

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.........  He is why a proton doesn't spin off of an electron, His creative word is the cohesive force in everything and the source of consciousness in everyone. As the living word He is the only one who can reveal the word and "make it alive."

His eyes are as flames of fire and a two edged sword comes out of His mouth.....
On His thigh written "the word of God faithful and true"......

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.


The primary purpose of the word is to "open us".

The letter kills but the spirit gives life. The letter "closes us"

But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.



Creation begins with opening, followed by implanting, followed by transformation- A broken and a contrite heart is open. The pure in spirit will see God. This is about humility.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void(mixture), and darkness was over the surface of the deep(carnality), and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters(stirring up by way of reminder). Then God said, "Let there be light"(understanding); and there was light. God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness(discernment).
(Gen 1:1-4)


And on this mountain(seated in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus) He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples, Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
The restitution of all things. Salvation flows from Zion.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
 


In the last days the mountain of the Lord will ascend above all the other mountains.

Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Mt. Zion is the joy of the whole earth.

They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.

"Is it not indeed from the LORD of hosts That peoples toil for fire, And nations grow weary for nothing? "For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.


It is the veils that we wear, not any deficiency in the scriptures(properly translated), that limits our understanding. The scriptures are the book of remembrance of the works and the words prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them. When we remember what they mean by the stirring of the spirit and the living active sword of the Spirit we are re-created by them.
It is as we press into Him that the veils are removed.

For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
(Eph 1:15-23)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 07:53:34 AM by eaglesway »
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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2010, 07:12:49 AM »
 Amen.  :thumbsup:

Offline Nathan

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2010, 05:00:33 PM »
3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.  4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:  5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.  Hebrews . .

1 Corinthians 10 says . .
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;  2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;  3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;  4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.  5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. . . .
10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

 11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come

I'm one that believes God would not mislead us with false happenings to instill spiritual truths.  The lineage of man goes back to the origin of man.  We started someplace.  We have an origin.  On another thread, I read last night, Molly stated something I found really interesting when dealing with the origin of man and how people of science want to claim we descended from apes.  It never occurred to me that even in the language they use, they put us "below" apes in that we didn't "ascend" from them, but we've "descended". 

The carnal mind will always strong-arm the created man "under" it's rule if we allow it.  I am not a descended being.  I am an ascended being.  I think that was one of the main reasons why Jesus "did" stay around for another 40 days.  One was to show those he loved that the resurrection was not a trick, he really did overcome death.  And two, that he is of an ascended nature and we have that same nature in us. 

Trying to prove there's is literally an ark of Noah still buried out there in the Ararat mountain range won't increase my faith at all.  Because flesh profiteth nothing.  It's not about proving the natural side of the stories really took place.  I "believe" they did, because God makes it clear he used people and their experiences to lay his spiritual principles for their descendants to identify, relate to and learn from.

I've really enjoyed this thread.



Offline Molly

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Re: Is the bible necessarily historically accurate?
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2010, 07:05:07 PM »
Quote from: Nathan
The carnal mind will always strong-arm the created man "under" it's rule if we allow it.


Morpheus: The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it

--The Matrix



43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.


--Mat 5