Is God God?

[Pierac]

"Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9  the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. "

I thank you but I see no reason for a correction, Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, Ere Abraham came into being, I am."
 Does not everyone, at least on this forum know who I AM is?  The "he" is added   

Joh 9:1  As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2  And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
Joh 9:3  Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.
Joh 9:4  "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.
Joh 9:5  "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
Joh 9:6  When He had said this, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and applied the clay to his eyes,
Joh 9:7  and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (which is translated, Sent). So he went away and washed, and came back seeing.
Joh 9:8  Therefore the neighbors, and those who previously saw him as a beggar, were saying, "Is not this the one who used to sit and beg?"
Joh 9:9  Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him."  He kept saying, "I AM."

Perhaps everyone on this forum knows the same about the blind man, as he spoke the same words as Jesus!
What's your point?

Paul

When Jesus says I AM He is saying I AM. He is I AM and there is a great difference when Jesus says I AM 
(YLT)  when, therefore, he said to them--`I am he ,' they went away backward, and fell to the ground.

I believe that those 3 letters He spoke was the power that sent them backwards. The "he"I find is in italics, not in original?
At least thats how I have been given to understand I AM.

The problem is Jesus did not speak those 3 little letters.  Those 3 little letters are what your translators want you to see...  Check your Greek... Jesus said! ἐγώ  εἰμί  (egō eimi)

KJV Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Now we shall read the same verse from the Greek Septuagint

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας
Note the two separate Greek words used for 'am' Jesus did not speak these.... (ο ων) I am's

Concordant Literal Version Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be has sent me to you.
Now when translated literally you get a whole different look. What happened to the other I am's?

The Hebrew Bible uses the word (hâyâh H1961) in the place of "Am" which is a verb meaning to exist, to be.
Check the Strongs' number.

Clearly Jesus did not say (εγω ειμι ο ων) nor did he state (ο ων), So again in John 8:58. Jesus spoke the words (εγω ειμι) just like other people in the bible who are saying I AM( εγω ειμι) . Your forcing a square block in a round circle, and it does not fit!

Paul

[micah7:9]

Okay Okay

[Molly]

Your forcing a square block in a round circle, and it does not fit!

So why did the Pharisees go to stone him when he said, I AM?  Why did the soldiers fall backwards to the ground?

Were they fitting a square peg in a round hole, too?  There was no one there to explain their language to them?

[Molly]

All of these translators got it wrong? 

New International Version (©1984)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

New Living Translation (©2007)
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."

English Standard Version (©2001)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"

King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Bible in Basic English
And God said to him, I AM WHAT I AM: and he said, Say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.

Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.

English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.

World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'
 
 

[Molly]

All of these translators got it wrong?


New International Version (©1984)
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"

English Standard Version (©2001)
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus said to them, "Truly, I tell all of you with certainty, before there was an Abraham, I AM!"

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am."

King James Bible
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

American King James Version
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.

American Standard Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am.

Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.

Darby Bible Translation
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

English Revised Version
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Weymouth New Testament
"In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am."

World English Bible
Jesus said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM."

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am;'

[jabcat]

It's not available electronically.  Here's what the Christian Bible (1991) says - (claimed as one of, if not the most literal translation available);

Yesu said to them, "Amen, Amen, ['truly, truly'], I say to you+, before Abraham came into being, 'I AM' [this is the contracted translation (Isa. 41:4, 47:8) of God's name in the Old Contract Writings;  Yehweh ('I am, was, and will be' Exo 3:14)]."

[jabcat]

I believe we can agree that God is the Father, over all (Jesus prayed to His Father and called YHWH HIS God);  Jesus is God's Son, our Savior;  Jesus said when He ascended, that He would send the Holy Spirit, which occurred at Pentecost.  Those things are clearly documented in the scriptures, amen?

----------------------

OP

Is the present world with all its chaos, troubles, morality of the mankind, calamities, and sorrows... in the plan of The Creator...or is the world being controlled or lead by  some other force?

[WhiteWings]

Not sure but somewhere in the OT is a verse stating that the Messiah was not allowed to reveal Himself.
If that's the case the I'm he are not references to divinity.
Maybe Revelation, the unveiling of Christ, is a hint in that direction.

 

[redhotmagma]

I believe we can agree that God is the Father, over all (Jesus prayed to His Father and called YHWH HIS God);  Jesus is God's Son, our Savior;  Jesus said when He ascended, that He would send the Holy Spirit, which occurred at Pentecost.  Those things are clearly documented in the scriptures, amen?

Amen, I think thats all we need to know, and probably will (fully) this side of the veil.  All the rest is gravy, intellectual exercise.  I'm not saying we shouldn't try and figure it out, but that it shouldn't cause division (not aimed at the people posting in this topic, thinking more of christianity in general)

[thinktank]

Not sure but somewhere in the OT is a verse stating that the Messiah was not allowed to reveal Himself.
If that's the case the I'm he are not references to divinity.
Maybe Revelation, the unveiling of Christ, is a hint in that direction.

 

Where is that verse?

I read somewhere I think on this forum, that Jesus sometimes hid his divinity, for practical reasons. But other times he revealed to his disciples and also to the pharisses who then would try and stone him.

[thinktank]

I believe we can agree that God is the Father, over all (Jesus prayed to His Father and called YHWH HIS God);  Jesus is God's Son, our Savior;  Jesus said when He ascended, that He would send the Holy Spirit, which occurred at Pentecost.  Those things are clearly documented in the scriptures, amen?

----------------------

Amen. I think alot of this stems from various writings that Jesus was not Gods Son. I think we have to be careful not to allow these writings to take away our faith in Jesus christ. Many of these writings will only present half the picture and leave out the scriptures that talk of Gods divinity. e.g I came down from heaven to do fathers will.

[Molly]

It's not available electronically.  Here's what the Christian Bible (1991) says - (claimed as one of, if not the most literal translation available);

Yesu said to them, "Amen, Amen, ['truly, truly'], I say to you+, before Abraham came into being, 'I AM' [this is the contracted translation (Isa. 41:4, 47:8) of God's name in the Old Contract Writings;  Yehweh ('I am, was, and will be' Exo 3:14)]."

I love that Christian Bible.   

[Molly]

Yehweh ('I am, was, and will be' Exo 3:14)]."

Christian Bible is saying here, YHWH is Jesus.



7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

--from the Revelation of Jesus Christ, Chapter 1

[thinktank]

1, 2 ,3 testing, testing.

Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God almighty

[eaglesway]

Great post Paul. And Jesus' rebuttal was not ,"I am God", it was "So what are you making such a big deal about me saying I am the son of God, doesnt your own law say, "You are all gods(elohym) and sons of the most high?"- which was also an insult because the rest of the verse says- "but you will all die like men" and believe me, the Pharisees knew that psalm well and took the meaning. In a way Jesus was actually making himself one of them and asking them why they were such unwilling and unrighteous representatives of the Father

Eaglesway my post was not intended for you... I was simply showing Micah7:9  the correct understanding of John 8:58 as it was quoted with out comment as if everyone would understand it's meaning. Your reading into my post... not out of my post. My post had nothing to do with docterine or beliefs, just the understanding of a simple verse... 

Now I will share with you the simple Hebraic understanding of... Son of God! (No theology of docterine attached)

Son of God - This title for Jesus has been given meanings and attributes that were never intended. People have erroneously used the human father-son relationship to describe this title of Jesus'. They have thought that since a human son has the actual essence (made of the same matter) of his father, that therefore, this title implies that Jesus being the Son of God is of the same essence of God.

Son of God - In the Old Testament Israel is described as God's first-born (Exodus 4:22) and is called His son. There is therefore precedence for calling the Messiah "Son of God" for he is Israel's representative par excellence (ZEB, vol.4, pg.203-204).

"Son of God" denotes an intimate relationship with the Father. It is obvious that sonship must not be understood in a crude pagan way. This bears out Dalman's contention that the Hebrew concept of "son" does not denote an extensive circle of relationships" (ZEB, vol.4, pg. 205). Adam was called the "son of God" (Luke 3:38), God calls King Solomon His "son" in 1 Chronicles 28:6.

For Paul, "Son of God" is essentially a Christological description expressing "the Son's solidarity with God" (ZEB, vol.4, pg.204). Closeness to the Father is the basic meaning of "Son of God" (Ibid). This closeness was a relationship that was shared by God's anointed kings of Israel. Since Jesus is the ideal king of Israel, he is naturally the ideal Son of God. This is how the term came to be synonymous with Messiah and king of Israel. They are all different ways of saying the same thing.

The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible vol. 4 pg. 204 states:

"The last chapter of the first epistle of John makes every possible emphasis upon the principle that Sonship is the mark of Messiahship. The same is the case with the fourth gospel where the Son of God is synonymous with Messiah and occurs more frequently than any other title. Haenchen maintains that the same equation:

Messiah = Son of God = Son of Man  applies to Mark's gospel. The same can be said of the rest of the New Testament."

Aspects of Monotheism pg.90 states:

"The notion that the Davidic king was the son of God is well established in the Hebrew Bible in 2 Samuel 7:14 and in Psalm 2:7. It was only natural then that the coming messianic king should also be regarded as the Son of God. To say that the king was the son of God, however, does not necessarily imply divinization."

This is the meaning of the title "Son of God."  Messiah = Son of God = king of Israel = Son of Man.   The Messiah does have the closest and most intimate relationship with the Father. Let's take a look at some verses to confirm this.

"The kings of the earth rise up, and the princes conspire together against the LORD and His anointed (Messiah)"… "I myself have set up my king on Zion (Israel)"… "The LORD said to me, "You are my son" (Psalm 2:2,6-7).

Here we see God speaking of the Messiah using all three titles; Messiah, king of Zion, and son.

"He first found his own brother and told him, "We have found the Messiah"…"Rabbi, you are the Son of God: you are the King of Israel" (John 1:41& 49).

John cannot be clearer on this title; the Son of God is the King of Israel. This is the Jewish meaning of "Son of God." Any other definition will take away from the true meaning of the title into something that was never intended by its Jewish author.



Paul

That was a great post too Paul, with the exception of the fact that you seem to assert that you have wrapped up the entire controversy in your post, to the satisfaction of anyone who has eyes to see that you completely understand it. I think there is a little deeper mystery than that. In my opinion, John asserted many interesting things about Jesus in his narration. I think some of those things may exceed the parameters you set forth, if I am understanding you correctly.

Again, I was not addressing any controversy in my post!  I was simply trying to explain the Hebraic understanding of "Son of God".  Your misinterpretation of my explanation of a simple verse in John for another poster and my revelation of the Hebraic meaning of the biblical term "Son of God"  offered for you some how.... wraps up the entire controversy is confusing to me.  What controversy are you talking about? 


Paul

Allow me to simplify. In regards to Jesus words, "Before Abrham was, I AM". I think you oversimplify. Controversy was perhaps a wrong choice of words. I was not referring to controversy between you and I or anyone on this board. I am just speaking of the general discussion of the controversial issue of the nature of God and the relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The verse in question is controversial in that it is not universally understood or agreed upon. That is why we were discussing it. Thus far, it has been a friendly and enlightening discussion and I am not trying to take it onto any other ground than that. Peace.

[Pierac]

All of these translators got it wrong? 

New International Version (©1984)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

New Living Translation (©2007)
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you."

English Standard Version (©2001)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God answered Moses, "I Am Who I Am. This is what you must say to the people of Israel: 'I Am has sent me to you.'"

King James Bible
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

American King James Version
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

American Standard Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Bible in Basic English
And God said to him, I AM WHAT I AM: and he said, Say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.

Darby Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.

English Revised Version
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Webster's Bible Translation
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM: And he said, Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me to you.

World English Bible
God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Young's Literal Translation
And God saith unto Moses, 'I AM THAT WHICH I AM;' He saith also, 'Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

Yes, they all got it wrong... read it in the Greek...

Septuagint Exo 3:14 και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην [εγω ειμι ο ων] και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ [ο ων] απεσταλκεν με προς υμας


Jesus did not say ο ων

CLV Exo 3:14 Then Elohim spoke to Moses: I shall come to be just as I am coming to be. And He said: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, I-Shall-Come-to-Be ].[ο ων]has sent me to you

Molly the translators all failed to read John 20:31 Yet these are written that you should be believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that, believing, you may have life eonian in His name."

Molly, by John having Jesus say I AM would not make anyone believe he was "the Christ" or "the Son of God."  It would have a completely diffrerent meaning from what John was trying to share and teach you!  Presonally, I pick the author Johns meaning over any translator of his work any day! 



Here's a bonus verse where everyone get's it wrong and the CLV get's it right... CLV  Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

You should seriously add this bible to your list! 


Paul

[Pierac]

Allow me to simplify. In regards to Jesus words, "Before Abrham was, I AM". I think you oversimplify. Controversy was perhaps a wrong choice of words. I was not referring to controversy between you and I or anyone on this board. I am just speaking of the general discussion of the controversial issue of the nature of God and the relationships between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The verse in question is controversial in that it is not universally understood or agreed upon. That is why we were discussing it. Thus far, it has been a friendly and enlightening discussion and I am not trying to take it onto any other ground than that. Peace.

I agree,

I'm simply showing the true meaning of particular scripture and Hebraic understandings.  I'm not even discussing the nature of God... only showing how verses do not always say what people want them to say. 

Paul

[Pierac]

Your forcing a square block in a round circle, and it does not fit!

So why did the Pharisees go to stone him when he said, I AM?   Why did the soldiers fall backwards to the ground?

Were they fitting a square peg in a round hole, too?  There was no one there to explain their language to them?

I and John already showed you...  The Jewish leaders were very well aware of what Jesus was saying about himself! Jesus was not claiming to be God but the Son of God as Shown in John 19:7 . As they give very reason they wanted Him dead!

John 19:6  When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. 7  The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.   The Messiah!

Paul

[micah7:9]

I dont believe it matters if its in Greek, German, Polish, Englinsh it is not just 3 letters or 18 letters, I AM is God and it being God then its the Power in the words Jesus SPOKE be it I AM or I-Shall-Come-to-Be.

Joh 6:63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

At least thats how I will embrace "I AM."   

[Molly]

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John 5:18]

Gill's exposition of the Entire Bible

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,.... They were the more desirous to take away his life, and were more bent and resolute upon it, and studied all ways and means how to bring it about;

because he had not only broken the sabbath; as they imagined; for he had not really broken it: and if they had known what that means, that God will have mercy, and not sacrifice, they would have been convinced that he had not broke it by this act of mercy to a poor distressed object:

but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him "my Father", and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:

making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned.

[sheila]

 Phpns 2;6  your attitude should be the same as Christ Jesus, who being in very nature God[love]

  did NOT consider equality with God,something to be grasped[suffer a seizure]

   But made himself NOTHING

  taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness,

  and being found in appearance as a man,

  he humbled himself,and became obediant unto death-even death on a cross

  THEREFORE GOD EXALTED HIM TO THE HIGHEST PLACE

  AND GAVE HIM THE NAME[God's name] THAT IS ABOVE EVERY NAME.


  do I thing that something supernatural occurred when Jesus said 'I AM' yes!! I beleive that this was him giving the name,spoken of above.


  everyone in the Holy city have Father's and Jesus' name.....we exist because of the Father and son..our very life has it's source in them

  as does any BE[ing]

[eaglesway]

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John 5:18]

Gill's exposition of the Entire Bible

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,.... They were the more desirous to take away his life, and were more bent and resolute upon it, and studied all ways and means how to bring it about;

because he had not only broken the sabbath; as they imagined; for he had not really broken it: and if they had known what that means, that God will have mercy, and not sacrifice, they would have been convinced that he had not broke it by this act of mercy to a poor distressed object:

but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him "my Father", and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:

making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned.

Gill has a lot to say, but it isn't necessarily all true. Altho I have no problem with Jesus bearing witness to his deity, in his response to them- Which obviously cannot be separated out of the discussion- He asks a question that goes to the heart of the matter, because he was refocusing the issues in their accusations. He said, essentially, "So what? Read your own law! Doesn't it say "You are all gods and sons of the most high?"  He is showing them what Adam lost in the garden, and what they were refusing to receive from Him- "To all those who received him he gave the right to become sons of God". In no place does Jesus by his own words make Himself equal in STATURE to the Father.  Jesus frequently declares himself totally dependent upon the Father and says the Father is the source of all of his words and actions. He is not his own source. He can of his own self do nothing. Whatever equality he has was given to him and it is written that way in many witnesses. This presents an interesting dilemma. Paul says Jesus was the fulness of diety in bodily form because "so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in him". Does it mean Jesus was confused or just playing word games with us? That Paul did not understand what he was saying because he didn t have the Bible yet? Or the benefit of Gill's understanding? Or a death sentence from the Holy Roman Church hanging over his head if he disagreed? God the Father needs no one to give him his name or authority, yet Jesus, by His own testimony was given that name, and that authority- and at some point will give the authority back, according to Paul(1 Cor 15). If Jesus is "Come down from heaven" to "reveal the Father" and is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of his nature", then as the Logos of God he can speak, "I AM" being equal in essence, yet still not be EQUAL IN STATURE to the Father." All of the language I see, even that of the Father, "This is my beloved Son, Hear ye him" expresses- to me- a relationship that is never equal in stature(other than conferred stature), even as Isaac was not equal to Abraham, and therein lies the poignancy of giving up a son to die- a son totally dependent in trust and totally willing to be used, given up, for sinners- ah the greatness of the Father's love for us. Of course this is mostly conjecture, but reasonable conjecture when viewed through the many scriptures that present a perspective most dogmatists refuse to view. I think most are stuck in the doctrine of it, and missing the revelation of it.

God is an absolute being, within him their is no shadow of turning. He is absolute light and in him is no darkness at all. Jesus also could be speaking "I AM" as a manifestation of his absoluteness of being in union with the Father- a perfect expression, an "express image" as the writer of Hebrews states(Hebrews 1:1-3).

Heb 1:1-3  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

(Heb 2:10)
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,saying,

 "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
And again,

 "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."



Firstborn among many brethren, many sons unto glory, the whole creation anxious for the revealing of the sons of God who will set all free into their liberty.

[thinktank]

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.[John 5:18]

Gill's exposition of the Entire Bible

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him,.... They were the more desirous to take away his life, and were more bent and resolute upon it, and studied all ways and means how to bring it about;

because he had not only broken the sabbath; as they imagined; for he had not really broken it: and if they had known what that means, that God will have mercy, and not sacrifice, they would have been convinced that he had not broke it by this act of mercy to a poor distressed object:

but said also that God was his Father; his own Father, his proper Father, his Father by nature, and that he was his own Son by nature; and this they gathered from his calling him "my Father", and assuming a co-operation with him in his divine works:

making himself to be equal with God; to be of the same nature, and have the same perfections, and do the same works; for by saying that God was his Father, and so that he was the Son of God, a phrase, which, with them, signified a divine person, as they might learn from Psalm 2:7, and by ascribing the same operations to himself, as to his Father, they rightly understood him, that he asserted his equality with him; for had he intended no more, and had they imagined that he intended no more by calling God his Father, than that he was so by creation, as he is to all men, or by adoption, as he was to the Jews, they would not have been so angry with him; for the phrase, in this sense, they used themselves: but they understood him otherwise, as asserting his proper deity, and perfect equality with the Father; and therefore to the charge of sabbath breaking, add that of blasphemy, and on account of both, sought to put him to death; for according to their canons, both the sabbath breaker, and the blasphemer, were to be stoned.

Gill has a lot to say, but it isn't necessarily all true. Altho I have no problem with Jesus bearing witness to his deity, in his response to them- Which obviously cannot be separated out of the discussion- He asks a question that goes to the heart of the matter, because he was refocusing the issues in their accusations. He said, essentially, "So what? Read your own law! Doesn't it say "You are all gods and sons of the most high?"  He is showing them what Adam lost in the garden, and what they were refusing to receive from Him- "To all those who received him he gave the right to become sons of God". In no place does Jesus by his own words make Himself equal in STATURE to the Father.  Jesus frequently declares himself totally dependent upon the Father and says the Father is the source of all of his words and actions. He is not his own source. He can of his own self do nothing. Whatever equality he has was given to him and it is written that way in many witnesses. This presents an interesting dilemma. Paul says Jesus was the fulness of diety in bodily form because "so it pleased the Father to make all the fulness dwell in him". Does it mean Jesus was confused or just playing word games with us? That Paul did not understand what he was saying because he didn t have the Bible yet? Or the benefit of Gill's understanding? Or a death sentence from the Holy Roman Church hanging over his head if he disagreed? God the Father needs no one to give him his name or authority, yet Jesus, by His own testimony was given that name, and that authority- and at some point will give the authority back, according to Paul(1 Cor 15). If Jesus is "Come down from heaven" to "reveal the Father" and is the "radiance of the Father's glory and the express image of his nature", then as the Logos of God he can speak, "I AM" being equal in essence, yet still not be EQUAL IN STATURE to the Father." All of the language I see, even that of the Father, "This is my beloved Son, Hear ye him" expresses- to me- a relationship that is never equal in stature(other than conferred stature), even as Isaac was not equal to Abraham, and therein lies the poignancy of giving up a son to die- a son totally dependent in trust and totally willing to be used, given up, for sinners- ah the greatness of the Father's love for us. Of course this is mostly conjecture, but reasonable conjecture when viewed through the many scriptures that present a perspective most dogmatists refuse to view. I think most are stuck in the doctrine of it, and missing the revelation of it.

God is an absolute being, within him their is no shadow of turning. He is absolute light and in him is no darkness at all. Jesus also could be speaking "I AM" as a manifestation of his absoluteness of being in union with the Father- a perfect expression, an "express image" as the writer of Hebrews states(Hebrews 1:1-3).

Heb 1:1-3  God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,  in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

(Heb 2:10)
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,saying,

 "I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN, IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
And again,

 "I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM." And again, "BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."



Firstborn among many brethren, many sons unto glory, the whole creation anxious for the revealing of the sons of God who will set all free into their liberty.

   Jesus the Christ the only begotten Son of God, who through Christ send his Sons spirit of adoption into us that we now cry abba father.

Which Jesus is not ashamed to call them brethren.


Hebrews 3

 1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

 2Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

 3For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

 4For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

 5And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
 6But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
 7Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,