Author Topic: If God works EVERYTHING into his will  (Read 2785 times)

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NinjaWizards777

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If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« on: November 04, 2009, 01:29:55 AM »
does that mean he wills for things like rape, murder, abuse, etc? I understand that God ultimately uses the results of these things for a "greater good" but is it safe to say that those specific atrocicites are his will, his desire? Im never sure how to answer this when it comes up, because in order to believe in Gods absolute sovereignty it would seem that to be the case.

Offline rosered

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2009, 01:57:09 AM »
does that mean he wills for things like rape, murder, abuse, etc? I understand that God ultimately uses the results of these things for a "greater good" but is it safe to say that those specific atrocicites are his will, his desire? Im never sure how to answer this when it comes up, because in order to believe in Gods absolute sovereignty it would seem that to be the case.
  I dont think  the Lord  wills this bro
  I just believe that He bears with us though it all...
 many  try to live this life independant  from God , but the Lord is never far away  from any  of us...
 
Pro 14:9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous [there is] favour. 
 
  Honestly I read "the shack "  and it gave  me some   understanding on these matters
 
  :HeartThrob:
 

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2009, 02:22:29 AM »

For those who dwell in the house of the Lord it is the Passion of the Lamb.
For those who dwell under the law it is the result.

Gab

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2009, 02:28:37 AM »
Well, I would certainly say that the capacity for such things is part of his will, although he evidently does not command people to do them.

Then again, if one believes that the universe is deterministic, then I suppose one would indeed have to conclude that God does will for such things to happen as well.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2009, 02:39:58 AM »
if one believes that the universe is deterministic, then I suppose one would indeed have to conclude that God does will for such things to happen as well.

Whatever do you mean?

Gab

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2009, 02:51:38 AM »
if one believes that the universe is deterministic, then I suppose one would indeed have to conclude that God does will for such things to happen as well.

Whatever do you mean?

If the universe is deterministic, which is to say that everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen has been preordained by God from the very beginning, then one must conclude that it was in God's will for all of those things to happen because if it was not then they would not have been so ordained.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2009, 03:15:14 AM »
The universe is a thing. This thing has no being. Thus it can not be determined of itself.
"It" simply follows the laws of physics OR those under grace follow the Lamb.

Gab

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2009, 04:39:39 AM »
The universe is a thing. This thing has no being. Thus it can not be determined of itself.
"It" simply follows the laws of physics OR those under grace follow the Lamb.

I'm... not sure how that relates to what I said.

If you don't like calling the universe deterministic, then remove the text "the universe is deterministic, which is to say that" from my post.  The meaning is the same.

NinjaWizards777

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2009, 06:46:58 AM »
for the majority of my universalistic hereisies, ive kindof believed in what I call "limited will" which is certain things can happen that arent neccesaily Gods will, but there is a limit to them and his ultimate will cannot be thwarted (ie biblical prophecies and his plan of salvation).

but now Im starting to think hes behind it all, whether I like or understand that or not

Offline legoman

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2009, 02:46:16 PM »

jesushandsarekindhands

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2009, 02:50:56 PM »
What it means is that God uses evil for the purpose of his will, in other words, to benefit everyone...someday.  The bible gives constant examples of God using evil for an ultimate good.

Offline rosered

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2009, 02:56:25 PM »
What it means is that God uses evil for the purpose of his will, in other words, to benefit everyone...someday.  The bible gives constant examples of God using evil for an ultimate good.

  True is , true is , Marc !
  I use the word "allows" , but "uses "is  similar  :thumbsup:

  :HeartThrob:God bless ya all .....

Offline fullarmor2

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2009, 04:29:57 AM »
     I thought this thread would be a good place to share a thought I had today, although it may sound funny,  I know the Spirit brought it to my mind today.    While I was meditating on the question,   why did God preplan  the human race,  and all creation to fall.  Now,  I know much can be said to answer this,  and feel free to give your  :2c:  if you like.  I'd love to hear it.      Anyway,    the thought I had was,  regarding the motion picture Superman(the older one, and the first).   Remember when Superman took Lois Lane for a fly around?    And during the time they were flying ,  Superman was holding Lois' hand,  and thats all.  And at some point, he let her hand slip out of his and immediately she began falling  way down from Superman!
And after a pause,  Superman  swooped down and caught Lois,  and I tell you she grabbbed a hold of Superman like crazy!   Of course,  Superman was loving it!  That was his plan.
   And this is sorta what God has done with us.    :happy3:
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline Cardinal

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2009, 05:41:41 AM »
 :cloud9: That's cute, and actually probably REAL close to the Truth..... :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline sparrow

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2009, 05:44:24 AM »
:cloud9: That's cute, and actually probably REAL close to the Truth..... :thumbsup:

I agree.. :HeartThrob:
He rescues us in our "fallen" state.  :Sparkletooth: :winkgrin:
If we had never fallen, how we would have ever been able to finally see the contrast?
We have fallen... in other words we walk this life, we see what life is like without Him.
He reaches out for us.
We cling to Him forever because now we KNOW what Love is and we know what NON-LOVE is and we finally understand that He IS love. He is the source.
Us losing our grip on Him was actually a gift.
Because otherwise we would be innocent/pure but ignorant.
He has a better plan for us...
For us to be innocent/pure but intelligent.
And oh the glory to be revealed...
Yes. This suffering we go through won't compare.

woo hoo!!!


 :HeartThrob:   :HeartThrob:  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 05:54:02 AM by sparrow »
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline rosered

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2009, 03:46:51 PM »
 

  Hi Ninja , and you all  here today,
 
Ninj  I been thinking about your  question ALOT !   
And how confusing  it was for me  most of my life to answer that question
 
 But now I  know  in order  to "rightly divide "  the Word of Truth 

    what  Jesus said  "to be born again "
 to me in Gen 1 Adam was spirit /son of God , in Gen 2 we see God formed him out of the dust of the ground / flesh ..a fallen and weak state of being , His curse was to the flesh and it would NEVER prosper ...
  to me that  was  IS the LOWER state lower than the angels ..
 Jesus come in human /flesh  form  , the  Adam  condition
  the things done in the flesh that wars against the Spirit , is all the evil things  you mentioned in your original post  and even  more   , that God allowed  to  come forth 
 from the Tree of good and evil
 
  Now Jesus was  coming  all along but Hidden ,  when He did Come born  as a little baby /flesh He   made the open Show  to ALL flesh
 
  that  the Spirit / Truth  is the  tree of Life and Part of God  and His love that is blessed  ,  but mankind / Adam / flesh would have the oppertunity to experience and  find out  How Gods will works .. 
 
  Just thoughts over the days on this subjuct , hope it was  easy to understand  my speech 
 I cannot speak as plain as I need to at times ..
  but still just keep on trying to  :HeartThrob:

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2009, 05:51:17 PM »
I do not believe evil thoughts and intentions come from the Holy Spirit.  In fact, doesn't the word HOLY mean separate,,, hallowed?   The Holy Spirit is separate from the spirit of antiChrist which is the spirit that rules in the fallen world.  Evil is simply opposition to that which is good.  I think it can only lead to grave chaos and confusion to think of God as being evil in any sense. 

However, His love is GREATER than any ability to resist.  His goodness outweighs the most corrupt imaginings of the heart of man.  In other words, God's goodness will OUTDO the magnitude of man's perversion of all that is good.

That's the way I see it.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline rosered

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2009, 06:23:41 PM »
I do not believe evil thoughts and intentions come from the Holy Spirit.  In fact, doesn't the word HOLY mean separate,,, hallowed?   The Holy Spirit is separate from the spirit of antiChrist which is the spirit that rules in the fallen world.  Evil is simply opposition to that which is good.  I think it can only lead to grave chaos and confusion to think of God as being evil in any sense. 

However, His love is GREATER than any ability to resist.  His goodness outweighs the most corrupt imaginings of the heart of man.  In other words, God's goodness will OUTDO the magnitude of man's perversion of all that is good.

That's the way I see it.

Anne
  thats exactly How I see it to
  whats Spirit is Spirit and whats flesh is flesh
  the weak  condition of the flesh  is bound to the Spirit
  or the evil spirits of this world 
 we are not our own
   we were bought for a  price  ,  that is why Paul called Himself a bondservant of Jesus Christ .
 whats Holy and pure and righteous is of God
  yet he Created the tree of knoweldge of good and evil for His  perfect  will in mind ... God works EVERYTHING into his will.... and Only He can DO This  :HeartThrob:
 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2009, 06:28:15 PM »
I do not believe evil thoughts and intentions come from the Holy Spirit.  In fact, doesn't the word HOLY mean separate,,, hallowed?
In some translations it's called the "Pure Spirit"
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2009, 07:31:44 PM »
Whitewings, Rose - thank you.   I appreciate your comments.  I always feel confused if I ever try to imagine God being anything but PURE.

God has to have a certain character - otherwise, how could we come to KNOW HIM?   If he changed like we do from one minute to the next, knowing him would be no different than knowing the fellow next door.  I've never met a person that would never fail me.  God is the only one I know who is completely unchanging and trustworthy.  That's why I trust him with the very ominous issue of death.

Anne
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.

Offline rosered

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2009, 07:53:49 PM »
Whitewings, Rose - thank you.   I appreciate your comments.  I always feel confused if I ever try to imagine God being anything but PURE.

God has to have a certain character - otherwise, how could we come to KNOW HIM?   If he changed like we do from one minute to the next, knowing him would be no different than knowing the fellow next door.  I've never met a person that would never fail me.  God is the only one I know who is completely unchanging and trustworthy.  That's why I trust him with the very ominous issue of death.

Anne
  Amen to that Anne !   :thumbsup:
 
 love how clear you are in your   beliefs  too ! 

  I struggle with that alot .....  :HeartThrob:

Offline sparrow

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2009, 07:56:25 PM »
Whitewings, Rose - thank you.   I appreciate your comments.  I always feel confused if I ever try to imagine God being anything but PURE.

God has to have a certain character - otherwise, how could we come to KNOW HIM?   If he changed like we do from one minute to the next, knowing him would be no different than knowing the fellow next door.  I've never met a person that would never fail me.  God is the only one I know who is completely unchanging and trustworthy.  That's why I trust him with the very ominous issue of death.

Anne

Yes, I agree.
"I knelt to drink,
And knew that I was on the brink
Of endless joy. And everywhere
I turned I saw a wonder there."

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Offline willieH

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2009, 08:36:47 PM »
willieH: Hi Ninja... :hithere:

I will try my best not to enjoin an argument between "free will" and "sovereignty", as it has been hashed out several times here, with no resolve, as well as has been deemed a taboo by TM as a subject of discussion.

However, you have mentioned some scenarios below (rape, murder, abuse, etc.), that deserve a revealing commentary... as well as a statement which has not been introduced before (to my knowledge) in any other discussion, SUCH AS this:

WE are the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, as KNOWN in the HEART of YHVH...  I will briefly explain below...

does that mean he wills for things like rape, murder, abuse, etc? I understand that God ultimately uses the results of these things for a "greater good" but is it safe to say that those specific atrocicites are his will, his desire? Im never sure how to answer this when it comes up, because in order to believe in Gods absolute sovereignty it would seem that to be the case.

Not to get into the "Sovereignty" issue... there are observations that easily identify it in Scripture, to be so...

(1)  ALL POWER (no matter how it is used or observed) is of GOD -- Rom 13:1
(2)  GOD works ALL THINGS -- Eph 1:11
(3)  In HIM do ALL THINGS take place -- Acts 17:28

Let me begin with a "for instance" concerning the works and deeds of men that are OTHER than "good",

When a "rape" (or any other "atrocity") takes place, can you truly say that God is not affiliated in ANY way to it's manifestation?  Though there are MANY observations that can be made, here are a few:

(1)  To begin with He Himself, created the concept or category under which this deed ("rape") is identified [EVIL] -- therefore it cannot BE (in any realm), except it were a CREATED entity, which is within a CONCEPT that  emerged from YHVH  -- :dontknow:
(2)  He KNOWS beforehand that it will take place --  :dontknow:
(3)  He is PRESENT at its manifestation --  :dontknow:
(4)  He brings forth BOTH participants --  :dontknow:
(5)  He CHOOSES the time period in which the event is manifest --  :dontknow:
(6)  He does NOTHING to PREVENT IT from occuring --  :dontknow:

A short while back, the Lord revealed to me (you are welcome to disagree) that WE and ALL that is done in the presence of YHVH, are the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, revealed and emerging from -- the heart of YHVH...

His KNOWLEDGE, like every aspect of Him, is a LIVING THING... and the human race (His Children) are active and LIVING participants of the KNOWLEDGE of G & E as it is being revealed in and through us, before ALL as an ETERNAL TESTIMONY to BOTH...

God is not an "external" element to our existence... He is WITHIN and WITHOUT as well as an active part of EVERYTHING about us...  :cloud9:

There is not 1 hair on our heads which He is not aware of -- there is not 1 blood cell -- not 1 thought -- not 1 deed --  Everything about the creation is ALIVE... as well as ALL MENTAL and SPIRITUAL aspects... God even notes in His WORD that the ROCKS are able to PRAISE HIM! -- Luke 19:40 -- Habb 2:11

Does one think that one can DO something that GOD has not decided shall be done?  He DECLARED the entire course of Humanity, BEFORE it came forth! -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rom 4:17

No offense to anyone, but how "self-centered", and arrogant is this thinking?  That one would consider that he/she might DO something that GOD is COMPLETELY disassociated from?  :mshock:

The desparately wicked HEART of MAN -- Jer 17:9 -- is where the doctrine of "INDEPENDENCE" comes from... it is NOT named in the WORD, on the contrary, ...I have named THREE Scriptures above which CLEARLY DEFY it...

EVERYTHING emerges from and is replaced upon the SAME FOUNDATION -- 1 Cor 3:11 -- there is only ONE FOUNDATION, and ALL works (good OR evil) in Creation must be placed UPON it... that FOUNDATION being CHRIST...

Men percieve themselves to "believe" as "they will"... but in the end Ninja... WE and ALL things are upon the agenda of YHVH... and rightly so... for the ETERNAL is set upon HIS WILL... and only the TEMPORAL MIRAGE which appears in the form of "wills" which are separate from HIS, is percieved in the realm of time, and is helplessly heading back to where it emerged... to be eliminated, and to be reconciled to the ONLY WILL which actually ...IS... that PERFECT WILL of YHVH!

...willieH  :cloud9:

Offline willieH

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2009, 08:43:56 PM »
for the majority of my universalistic hereisies, ive kindof believed in what I call "limited will" which is certain things can happen that arent neccesaily Gods will, but there is a limit to them and his ultimate will cannot be thwarted (ie biblical prophecies and his plan of salvation).

but now Im starting to think hes behind it all, whether I like or understand that or not

 :iagree:  And you are quite correct, in this thought, bro!  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline Raggedy Anne

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Re: If God works EVERYTHING into his will
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2009, 08:53:34 PM »
In fact, we still feel as if we're under a death sentence. But we suffered so that we would stop trusting ourselves and learn to trust God, who brings the dead back to life.  He has rescued us from a terrible death, and he will rescue us in the future. We are confident that he will continue to rescue us, 2 Corinthians 1: 9-10 (GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) .... I don't normally use this translation, just thought I'd try it.  I recommend reading all of 2Corinthians if you want to get the mind of Christ on the topic of God's will.
Ours is not to make up anybody's mind, but to open hearts.
You cannot plough a field by turning it over in your mind.