Author Topic: If God creates evil, how does that reflect on our conformity with His image?  (Read 1436 times)

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martincisneros

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One thing that has bothered me about the passage in Isaiah about God creating evil, in the way that a lot of Universalists will take that passage at face value without necessarily a regard for a contextual scenario, or some other limitation, for the passage is that I've never seen it adequately addressed by any of them regarding how this effects what you and I are becoming through the power by which Jesus Christ is conforming all things to Himself according to Philippians 3:21 and Romans 8:29.   Any thoughts?

Offline Reverend G

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Did God create evil?  OK, yes.  By intention even, or knowingly, since He knows all.  It is an unavoidable consequence of being all that is goodness and love, and creating beings that can choose not to, that indeed are incapable of, living up to the example He sets.

Jesus was the living, human example of this goodness and love.  A real, in the flesh example of all that we should hope to be but can never truly realize.  In this manner, just by living our lives more in accordance with His will, we increase the dichotomy, we underscore the difference between good and evil.  Hopefully, in doing this, others realize that goodness and love are attainable attributes, even if imperfectly so. 

That is where our attitudes can be beneficial or detrimental.  If we choose to condemn, despise, and look down at those who fail to live up to this ideal, we tend to increase the sadness and evil in this world.  When we attempt to help others and live by example, we can hopefully inspire others to attempt, if imperfectly, to strive for goodness and love.  This does not mean that we condone evil, only that we hope to transform it through our own actions.    The Lord has already provided the perfect example to follow, in that we are all forgiven, though we all fall short.  Can any of us ever be as gracious and loving as that? 

Offline fire walker

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We have all fallen short of the glory of God,
does that make ALL sins and trespasses of the flesh synomonus with evil? I believe evil,  sin and trespasses are three differant words for a purpose.

When someone does evil and seeks to justify it by calling it good then that does not seperate the good from the evil, it leads to hypocricy. does any man do completely all Evil? It doesn't appear to me that any man does entirely evil any more than any man does entirely good, the tare grows along side the wheat within each of us, Gods word has said that heavenly angels seperate the wheat from the tare and until a time predestined in each individuals life we are in a transitory temporary place of life in this world, God works all things to the counsel of his own will for the ultimate good of all mankind.
 
Did Judas chose to do evil by his own free will or was he chosen to do the dirty job of betraying Jesus. Judas came to a place of such deep Godly sorrow after the betrayal that he took his own life, scripture states that Godly sorrow works repentance not to be repented of, the works of self righteousness repentance that any man can boast does not come by Godly sorrow but the works of the flesh, and I trust this at work in our life here in this world and also in scriptures Judas did not try to justify himself after the fact and call the evil he had done good, though he, the man Judas may have desired to undo what he had done it was physicaly impossible for him to go back.

We are being made into his(Gods) immage, he is the  potterer who works the clay, we are the clay, God is not finished completing us or his creation, thus the ages must roll
until he has completed us. In the ages there
is still good and evil exsisting together in the same space we call this world.

Peace,
Fire Walker   
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 12:35:35 AM by fire walker »
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Paul Hazelwood

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I don't think people take into account all of scripture when they argue for a God that did not create Evil but place the creation of evil into the hands of men.

Scripture tells us that the carnal mind is emnity to God and is not subject to the Laws of God nor is it able.

I believe this means that it is not our fault that we cannot convert on our own.  There may be more to it, but very briefly I think that is correct.

Now, despite that scripture, lets speculate for a moment about a God who did not create evil.

If people truly seek hope, then that hope must transcend ourselves.  Meaning that hope must have more power than we do.

A God who leaves his creation to their own devices (therefore ultimatly creating evil) is not giving true hope.  It is hope for some, if that.   Even a God who is defined as Love only loves in a limited capacity, he loves, but loves conditionally.  Experiencing that Love is conditional on someone having the power to overcome the evil in their heart on their own.  Certainly the human will may be that strong in a few, but certainly not enough to call it hope.

A God who is Love that creates Evil, has taken responsibility for it's existance. A God who is love who creates evil for a divine purpose that tells us that He will reconcile all things unto him offers the ultimate hope. He has defined what Evil is and will use it FOR that promise rather than sticking us in the middle of it and saying "sink or swim".


No, a God who would subject us to a life where we have the power to create, and our nature automatically uses that power to do little but create misery has no hope.


Michele

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In a metaphorical way, mankind is like a picture of the image of God, but we can't see the picture just yet. 

Just think of the process in which a photograph is taken.  A picture is taken with a flash of Light, and in order for the image to be developed it must become a negative first. The only way for a negative to be properly developed is for it to be placed in darkness in the beginning stage of the process. Likewise, the gift of goodness came from God, and became it's polar opposite, which is evil and therefore entered into darkness. This same darkness was required so that the True Image could be developed within. The true Image is Light and Love, and is the very essence or our creator, which resides in the hearts of all, and is birthed within the darkness.

Most children are terrified of the dark, and yet the darkness is perceived as a punishment when in actuality it is only the catalyst for our sleep which gives birth to our awakening.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2008, 12:07:34 AM by StainedGlass »

Offline fire walker

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Stainedglass,

I enjoyed your insight and POV on this, yes the negative is developed into the  true and completed picture by being exposed to
a period placed in darkness, this is part of the process to getting the clear and completed picture.

Fire Walker
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline willieH

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willieH: Hi brother M... :hithere:

One thing that has bothered me about the passage in Isaiah about God creating evil, in the way that a lot of Universalists will take that passage at face value without necessarily a regard for a contextual scenario, or some other limitation, for the passage is that I've never seen it adequately addressed by any of them regarding how this effects what you and I are becoming through the power by which Jesus Christ is conforming all things to Himself according to Philippians 3:21 and Romans 8:29.   Any thoughts?

Interesting challenge brother... I do believe however, that CONTEXT does not confine Spiritual PRINCIPLES... nor POWERS... and the "context" demands which are often made, are of THEOLOGY, not of the WORD...  I do not condone "cherry picking", but on the other hand, Scripture is not BOUND by our demands of it... (i.e. CONTEXT) for example:

"Thou shalt NOT KILL" is a premise which STANDS both IN and OUT of the CONTEXT in which it is found written in God's WORD...

Seems to me in the CONTEXT that Isaiah wrote... YHVH is therein (over and over) noting that like it or not, or know it or not, HE is GOD, and HE creates what IS... to include peace, evil, light and darkness... and that there is PURPOSE in ALL He does, whether we "get it, or not"...  :dontknow:

The Christian "church" in general, stubbornly refuses to see what is said in Isaiah 45...

I really agree with Firewalker, that Michelle (SG) has an EXCELLENT and wonderful grasp of the process of EVIL and its place in our experience...  :happyclap:  :Urock: :yes:  VERY GOOD!  MrswillieH sends her agreement as well SG!

PeAcE...
...willieH  :boogie:

jabcat

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I really agree with Firewalker, that Michelle (SG) has an EXCELLENT and wonderful grasp of the process of EVIL and its place in our experience...  :happyclap:  :Urock: :yes:  VERY GOOD!  MrswillieH sends her agreement as well SG!

PeAcE...
...willieH  :boogie:

Mr. jabcat agrees!  That was really nice.

Offline fire walker

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WhillieH,

Your post also reveals an excellent grasp on the process of Evil.

Fire Walker
If in this life only we have hope in Christ we are of all men most miserable.

                1Cr 14:19

Offline Taffy

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In a metaphorical way, mankind is like a picture of the image of God, but we can't see the picture just yet. 

Just think of the process in which a photograph is taken.  A picture is taken with a flash of Light, and in order for the image to be developed it must become a negative first. The only way for a negative to be properly developed is for it to be placed in darkness in the beginning stage of the process. Likewise, the gift of goodness came from God, and became it's polar opposite, which is evil and therefore entered into darkness. This same darkness was required so that the True Image could be developed within. The true Image is Light and Love, and is the very essence or our creator, which resides in the hearts of all, and is birthed within the darkness.

Most children are terrified of the dark, and yet the darkness is perceived as a punishment when in actuality it is only the catalyst for our sleep which gives birth to our awakening.

A wonderful analogy SG :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Michele

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Well thank you very much Fire Walker, Mr & Mrs WillieH, Mr jabcat and Taffy.   :cloud9:  :HeartThrob:

You know.....I think you all might find what I'm about to tell you very fascinating..... 

Here goes......the idea came to me back when I was extremely interested in studying everything I could get my hands on about the Shroud of Turin.  It occurred to me how strange it was that all through the *Dark Ages*.......many people believed the Shroud to be the True Image of God.....but little did they know that what they were seeing was only the Negative image (perfect metaphor for what was taking place spiritualy at that time).  Anyway, it wasn't until the evening of May 28, 1898......that it was discovered that this Shroud/Grave Cloth (perfect metaphor for the flesh) actually contained the True Image within it.  This is an amazing real life metaphor for what is beginning to take place today (spiritual awakening) within each person.

I'd also like to note that the Shroud was almost destroyed *twice* by fire.  The Shroud of Turin has faced a dangerous trial by fire and survived!  So will we......the True Image can never die.



« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 06:44:16 PM by StainedGlass »

Offline Taffy

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Well thank you very much Fire Walker, Mr & Mrs WillieH, Mr jabcat and Taffy.   :cloud9:  :HeartThrob:

You know.....I think you all might find what I'm about to tell you very fascinating..... 

Here goes......the idea came to me back when I was extremely interested in studying everything I could get my hands on about the Shroud of Turin.  It occured to me how strange it was that all through the *Dark Ages*.......many people believed the Shroud to be the True Image of God.....but little did they know that what they were seeing was only the Nagative image (perfect metaphor for what was taking place spiritualy at that time).  Anyway, it wasn't until the evening of May 28, 1898......that it was discovered that this Shroud/Grave Cloth (perfect metaphor for the flesh) actually contained the True Image within it.  This is an amazing real life mataphor for what is beginning to take place today (spiritual awakening) within each person.

I'd also like to note that the Shroud was almost destroyed *twice* by fire.  The Shroud of Turin has faced a dangerous trial by fire and survived!  So will we......the True Image can never die.




Very Fascinating indeed sis :icon_flower: Thanks again for sharing Kiddo :icon_flower:
Blessings  :icon_flower:
T
Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

martincisneros

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Here goes......the idea came to me back when I was extremely interested in studying everything I could get my hands on about the Shroud of Turin.  It occurred to me how strange it was that all through the *Dark Ages*.......many people believed the Shroud to be the True Image of God.....but little did they know that what they were seeing was only the Negative image (perfect metaphor for what was taking place spiritualy at that time).  Anyway, it wasn't until the evening of May 28, 1898......that it was discovered that this Shroud/Grave Cloth (perfect metaphor for the flesh) actually contained the True Image within it.  This is an amazing real life metaphor for what is beginning to take place today (spiritual awakening) within each person.

I'd also like to note that the Shroud was almost destroyed *twice* by fire.  The Shroud of Turin has faced a dangerous trial by fire and survived!  So will we......the True Image can never die.

 :goodpost:

Michele

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Thanks martin.....you may want to check this out....

http://www.shroud.com/piczek3.htm