If ET were true ...

[LS]

John Piper asks a somewhat related question: "The critical question for our generation—and for every generation— is this: If you could have heaven, with no sickness, and with all the
friends you ever had on earth, and all the food you ever liked, and all the leisure activities you ever enjoyed, and all the natural beauties you ever saw, all the physical pleasures you ever tasted, and no human conflict or any natural disasters, could you be satisfied with heaven, if Christ were not there? "  — John Piper

I'd love to hear your thoughts and discussion on both questions.

For me, my answer to the poll is that yes, I would still love and trust God. I would probably sound like Peter in John 6: ""Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life."

[Beloved Servant]

Sickening.

[LS]

Sickening.

Really?     I think it's an important question. I don't for one minute think I have it all right; don't we have to consider this question in light of the beliefs in which we may be in error?

I'm sorry if it's an offensive question and of course understand if the moderators choose to remove it.

[Beloved Servant]

You're asking me to doubt my faith and that's what happened when I tried.
It makes me sick to my stomach.

[Beloved Servant]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MniOtRnCO9I&feature=related

[LS]

You're asking me to doubt my faith and that's what happened when I tried.

I'm not asking you to doubt your faith in God ... but is it wrong to examine & question a belief we hold dear? Do we hold it above God Himself?  I have asked this same question on other boards about other beliefs and I've been very surprised by some of the responses.

Please forgive me if I upset you - that honestly wasn't my intent. I only was looking to spark introspection and conversation. 

[WhiteWings]

To the poll I answered "no". How can I worship someone that tortures me?
 
As for the loaded Piper question...
He's setting up a strawman argument.
If I answer "yes" I prefer a situation that Jesus doesn't want to be part of. Meaning I'm a sinner that belongs in hell.
If I answer "no" I agree ET is justified.

[LS]

As for the loaded Piper question...
He's setting up a strawman argument.
If I answer "yes" I prefer a situation that Jesus doesn't want to be part of. Meaning I'm a sinner that belongs in hell.
If I answer "no" I agree ET is justified.

Hmmmmm... I guess I didn't see the Piper question in that light.  Maybe I misunderstood his question, but I didn't see it as ET vs  US, but simply a question about Jesus' place in your mind & heart.

I remember many years ago someone expressed the opinion that if their loved one wasn't in heaven, they didn't want to be there either and this quote was posted in reply.

At that time, I honestly agreed with the first person, but that fact troubled me because it meant (in my mind) that I loved some people more than I loved God Himself. Aren't we first supposed to love God with all our mind and all our heart and all our soul ... and second to love others? Isn't that the proper order of things .. God first?

I've spent a lot of time thinking about and praying about all of the things I hold above God. And I discovered there were many ... but today I can honestly say He has answered my prayer, that He help me to love Him more than anyone or anything. From that love, all other love flows, imho.

I guess I can see why you took this is a trick question, but it's much more fundamental and deeper than that.

[Cardinal]

  My  ......I worshipped, trusted and adored Him when I THOUGHT it was true; I still do now that I KNOW it's only a refiner's fire that is "age-enduring", ie. as long as necessary to bring about repentance, and very likely, less than a year, as the Jews believed.

It's to the "saving of our SOULS", but Christiandom has concluded that because the spirit goes back to the One who sent it, that they are ok, and that that one time prayer asking Him to save their souls, was all that was required of them. The spirit and the soul are not the same thing, they're not even the same words in the Hebrew or the Greek. Salvation is a process, not a one time event.

BUT: that's one of the things I love about God; it's possible to KNOW, ANYTHING, from experience if the motive of the heart in it is pleasing to Him, and you're seeking Him no matter where that "leads" you.

The disciples didn't write the things they did SOLELY on what they "thought" or even about what He said, exclusively, because the carnal mind cannot fathom the things of God. There was no NT for them to look at.

They wrote out of EXPERIENCING via the Spirit of TRUTH busy creating their new heavens (mind of Christ) and their new earth (glorified body), which is the way He intended for us to know anything, as that is the fruit that remaineth, ie. the things that be thru and of Christ, who is a Spirit. Hereafter we'll not KNOW Him after the flesh (or fleshly understanding) but we'll know Him after the Spirit. Blessings....

[LS]

Great post, Cardinal 

I especially agree with these:

My  ......I worshipped, trusted and adored Him when I THOUGHT it was true ......

... The spirit and the soul are not the same thing, they're not even the same words in the Hebrew or the Greek. Salvation is a process, not a one time event.

[micah7:9]

As far as I know the teaching of what you call ET of ED, are man made doctrines conjured up and contrived by the imagination of mans carnal mind. The God of Love taught in the Bible, does not teach such a blasphemy doctrine of hate.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

[WhiteWings]

Hmmmmm... I guess I didn't see the Piper question in that light.  Maybe I misunderstood his question, but I didn't see it as ET vs  US, but simply a question about Jesus' place in your mind & heart.

People without Jesus in their heart are carnal. Carnal people are toast.
 
 

I remember many years ago someone expressed the opinion that if their loved one wasn't in heaven, they didn't want to be there either and this quote was posted in reply.

At that time, I honestly agreed with the first person, but that fact troubled me because it meant (in my mind) that I loved some people more than I loved God Himself. Aren't we first supposed to love God with all our mind and all our heart and all our soul ... and second to love others? Isn't that the proper order of things .. God first?

Did Jesus love God. Yep.
Did He love us. Yep He even died for us.
Even if Jesus loved Father double as much as He loves us, He still took very extreme route of sacrifice to ensure we we are snatched away from death. Was He disobeying Father by wanting all to be saved (speaking as an UR now LS )? I think not.
So I think you did good caring for those in hell or in your case the EDifried ones.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about and praying about all of the things I hold above God. And I discovered there were many

Maybe all? Not sure but isn't there a verse that states we can't keep even one command?

[jabcat]

As far as I know the teaching of what you call ET of ED, are man made doctrines conjured up and contrived by the imagination of mans carnal mind. The God of Love taught in the Bible, does not teach such a blasphemy doctrine of hate.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

 

[Lefein]

Hehehe...Heaven without Jesus...Poor fool doesn't even realise the fallacy of his statement!

Its like asking if you'd still appreciate a rainbow if colour didn't exist!

[Truthseeker]

I voted no because of the implications of what it means if ET were true, I've also read on numerous occasions that in order to be classified as a "true Christian", one must just unquestioningly accept this doctrine

I no longer wear the label of "Christian", although the beliefomatic quiz keeps classifying me as an Orthodox Quaker with numerous other Christian beliefs in the top 10 places and non-theist at the bottom place, whenever I take the quiz

I found this ET belief so distressing that I tried to break free of Christianity altogether, with as little pain as possible, however I have this gut feeling that neither atheism or Orthodox Christianity is the truth, as both try to explain things in black and white into one neatly trussed up packaging system, which leaves little room for questioning or using one's reasoning abilities and common sense, but there are too many complex systems which both these systems fail to explain adequately

Atheism uses their reasoning and common sense but proudly touts that there is no Creator, and calls those that believes in a Creator as being delusional

Orthodox Christianity believes in a Creator, but tells us to abandon all common sense and reasoning, whenever the facts don't fit, eg the concept of ET is immoral, unjust and is an utterly repulsive concept which could never be justified

Needless to say, both belief systems make me unhappy, and I don't think it was an accident that I discovered CU at a desperate time in my life as I keep getting drawn back to it for some reason, it's the only thing that even begins to make some sort of sense to me personally

[firstborn888]

From that love, all other love flows

And the more that love flows the more absurd an unacceptable the concept of eternal torment becomes. Since Love and ET are mutually exclusive ideas and since God is love then there is no reason to put yourself in a position to choose what you would do if God wasn't love.

An identical question would be "If you found out that God was evil would you still love Him?"

The question is trying to separate God from who He is. That won't work. 

[WhiteWings]

From that love, all other love flows, imho.

How do you reconcile it with your own ED view, LS?

[thinktank]

If ET were true I would wonder about what type of God im in heaven with and he would know my thoughts, there would be no peace in heaven or hell, reminds me of a simpson episode where Bart simpson can read peoples minds and if they think bad thoughts against Bart he would turn Homer simpson, his dad into a jack inthe box or something similar.

[Lefein]

Always remember Truthseeker, Christ came to secure a relationship, not build up religion.

...in fact, if you look at his general purpose and means, and prophecies of doing so, he actually tore down religion en masse (in three days I'll tear down this temple), and proved it fruitless vainity and impossible with the sermon on the mount (I tell you if you even hate your brother you've commited murder).

 

[glorious-celestial]

As for ET I think it is like in the song. "Further along we'll know all about it, further along we'll understand why. Cheer up my brother live in the sunshine, we'll understand it all by and by."
Aliens or no aliens, nobody is boss in such constellation. We all would be limited to what we are so to the way we were created and therefore we automatically would have to look together for the main answer of the creator. Who placed us here and for what purpose? Aliens wouldn't mean God isn't real, they would mean he is more real than ever, just as he becomes more and more real the more we understand about his creation by discovering species down on earth. I don't see how life from outer space would change this, especially if it is friendly life as in the movie of ET.


A heaven without Jesus however is impossible, a heaven like that is no heaven at all. Because that's what defines heaven, he is a large part of what we know about heaven. He is also by what we enter heaven, we enter heaven through Jesus. Without Jesus there is no heaven for us. Because we are all sinners, washed clean by his blood. He tries to provoke with this question, in fact I would take the whole question as an advice to concentrate on Jesus and my relationship to God through him rather than on promises made.

[Beloved Servant]

That's precious!
Yes, ET is complete fiction and a ferocious story.
Let's just keep our eyes on Jesus and forget the tales of torment.