Author Topic: If all churches and Bibles were gone.  (Read 1404 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline AJ

  • Snr
  • *
  • Posts: 108
  • Gender: Male
    • Jesus the Light of the World
If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« on: November 15, 2007, 04:12:59 AM »
.
A couple curiosity questions:


#1.  What do you think would happen to Christians – if all the 'houses of worship' doors were locked shut?

Meaning,  all so-called Christian churches…..all Catholic churches,  Protestant churches and Cathedrals.

------------------------------

#2.  What do you think would happen to Christians – if all Bibles….if everyone them were confiscated?

Meaning, no more Bibles to read.



If either or both of these two things would ever happen – would it really be a bad thing?

How did David the shepherd boy live - without his Bible and corner church?


Peace, AJ
"Pretty soon, everybody will get what they deserve, which is ..."Salvation"..."Reconciliation"..."Restitution"..."Restoration"..."Immortality"... and "Incorruption" --- now ain't that the coolest thing?

Kept

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 04:23:23 AM »
Maybe we would get our heads out of the book and our bodies out of the buildings and actually live amongst folks that we would otherwise never meet.

kept

Offline hopeful

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1090
  • Gender: Female
  • He was there!
    • To Know Him More
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 04:50:04 AM »
Yes, amen!   :HeartThrob:
You're welcome to visit http://toknowhimmore.blogspot.com/

jchpiper

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 06:14:48 AM »
I've thought along that same line AJ.

I've thought of it in light of literacy....for which I am bountifully thankful.

But for most of human history, the majority of folks couldn't read.  They talked....while they worked, while they foraged, while they labored just to eat every day.

I've thought of how the Word is written in the stars....and about a time when light pollution didn't exist.  Folks could really see the stars.  The account of God and the redeemer was passed along through oral tradition, partly using the stars.

So that really doesn't answer your questions....I guess it is more of a side note.

(uh oh....I think of "Imagine" by John Lennon.  Blast me now!! :mshock:  :happygrin:)

jchpiper

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2007, 06:18:30 AM »
.
A couple curiosity questions:


#1.  What do you think would happen to Christians – if all the 'houses of worship' doors were locked shut?

Meaning,  all so-called Christian churches…..all Catholic churches,  Protestant churches and Cathedrals.

------------------------------

#2.  What do you think would happen to Christians – if all Bibles….if everyone them were confiscated?

Meaning, no more Bibles to read.



If either or both of these two things would ever happen – would it really be a bad thing?

How did David the shepherd boy live - without his Bible and corner church?


Peace, AJ


Well...I thought I'd throw out some possibilities...

1.  Folks would still gather, but probably in homes and at Panera Bread.   :winkgrin:


2.  Folks would probably write down what they could remember of what is written. 

Kept

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2007, 06:54:11 AM »
Hey I have a hubby that has the nt memorized and parts of the ot

so Im hanging with him lol

kept

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8431
  • Gender: Female
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2007, 07:27:30 AM »
 :cloud9: Sad to say, but I think we will see that very scenario in the country before He comes in fullness. I think that is what He is preparing us for, and why He has stressed to myself and others I know, that the day will come when we will need to hear Him and move INSTANTLY as our lives will depend on it. My  :2c: Blessings to you......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

rebeccat

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 07:56:43 AM »
I know that churches have serious issues, but I think we can be too quick to dismiss the idea altogether.  People want and need to feel connected with eachother.  After all, we're the body in spirit, but what good does your hand or pituitary gland do if they're wandering around 2 towns over and you don't even know you're missing them?  
Also, the experience of the early church in many places doesn't really conform to many of our expectations.  Before the Christians aroused the hostilities of the Jewish temple authorities, they were meeting in an area of the temple complex which was capable of holding more people than our biggest mega-church.  Even before the day of pentacost, the number of male believers who gathered together to choose a new disciple to take Judas's place was 120 - more than would fit into a home today!
There are also writings from the days before Constantine speaking of wealthy Christians who had rooms in their homes able to hold several hundred people which were used for church gatherings (ie the home church).  
The fact that the early Christians modelled their worship and practices after Jewish ways should also give pause to those who think that church gatherings were spirit lead events with no structure or form.  Initially, there were even sacrifices being made.  
Even after God used Paul and then Peter's visions to make clear that His new way should not be conformed to the ways of Jewish teachings and practices, we still have many indications that there was a pattern to the meetings of the body.  Pliny the younger writes about being told by former adherants of ordered meetings for hymns, an oath of some sort and sharing of the communion meal on a particular day at a particular time.  Paul also emphasizes to the church in Corinth the need for orderly meetings.  We know that teaching took place and sermons were given.
At any rate, my point is that the early church met in groups as large as they could find accomodations for, sang set hymns together, practiced a ritual communion meal, had set prayers, listened to sermons and such.  
There is nothing wrong with ritual - humans around the world and through out time have used it which indicates to me that there is something fundamental in our make-up which is drawn to rituals.  And rituals can be filled with meaning, with the movement of the holy spirit and create a connection which transcends time and place between its practitioners.  It is only when ritual is seen as a means unto itself, rather than as a practice through which one can experience and reach out to God's spirit that ritual becomes a problem.
There's also nothing wrong with using the spiritual gift of teaching.  Some have the gift of prophesy and those who do not shouldn't feel badly about this - they should seriously consider the messages of those who God has gifted in this way.  Likewise, some have a gift of teaching which allows them to explain things of God in ways that others may not be able to come to on their own.  Those who do not have this gift shouldn't feel bad about it, nor should they scorn it's use.
In order for those who have the gift of teaching to use their gifts properly, they would need to spend every waking hour speaking to people individually or in very small groups of 20 or less in home churches if they are to be constricted to the idea that it is wrong to teach to large groups.  Different gifts work best in different settings and just as in Jesus' day teaching is often quite effective and can touch large numbers of people quickly in a setting of more than a handful of people.
Finally, while it is a very, very unfortunate truth that many churches today are not the best places for the hurt and needy to stay in the long term, the fact of the matter is that many people, when they are at the end of their rope and usually out of desperation, find their way through the doors of a church.  I have met people in this situation many times in church and I can guarentee you that if there was not a church there for them to go into, they would not have shown up on my doorstep looking for answers.
I absolutely agree that Christians should not be walling themselves off into their buildings and should be carrying the spirit of the true church with them where ever they go.  But it doesn't need to be an either we're out in the world or we're locked behind our church doors thing.   It should be both.  
Look around this board - one of the first things people coming here are looking for and asking is, "where can I find others who believe like I do to worship and fellowship and just talk with."  I believe that it breaks God's heart that there aren't places (be they school gyms, movie theater auditoriums, corner bakeries, living rooms or church buildings) where we can go and be safe and take those first steps to being able to live in Christian community with eachother.  
We weren't made to be alone and although I thank God for the gift of the internet which allows for a certain level of connection between likeminded believers, I simply do not and can not concieve that God desires for us to be deprived of the ability to gather together, face-to-face to worship, learn and develop Christian communities where our gifts can be used, relationships can be forged and needs can be met.
I think we are in danger of allowing our completely justified disgust with workings and practices of the mass of churches we have today warp our thinking about how to meet the legitimate needs of people to experience connections with others, be taught, grow spiritually, serve in community and be served by others.  
Just my  :2c:

Offline reFORMer

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 1943
  • Gender: Male
  • Psalm 133
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2007, 09:57:53 AM »
I know that churches have serious issues, but I think we can be too quick to dismiss the idea altogether.  People want and need to feel connected with eachother.  After all, we're the body in spirit, but what good does your hand or pituitary gland do if they're wandering around 2 towns over and you don't even know you're missing them?

We are "members of one another" by the Spirit.  When there was an earthquake in California and I lived in the midwest, I turned to go to the phone and suspended in mid-air was my grandmother's voice saying, "Dear God; help him to know we're alright."  We can't connect in meetings where we're just an audience for the convenience of a professional preacher.  You can't tell me that isn't what almost all do; that, and ritual that requires no living participation, only rote repetition.

Also, the experience of the early church in many places doesn't really conform to many of our expectations.  Before the Christians aroused the hostilities of the Jewish temple authorities, they were meeting in an area of the temple complex which was capable of holding more people than our biggest mega-church.  Even before the day of pentacost, the number of male believers who gathered together to choose a new disciple to take Judas's place was 120 - more than would fit into a home today!

This was the Church at Jerusalem.  Not at all like Antioch, where there's no record they had recognized elders.  At the same time in Jerusalem they were, "Continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house..." (Ac 2:46)  And near this reference it tells of having all things in common and meeting the needs of any with need.
     
A pagan who led opposition to Christians, Lucian, referred to them in 160 AD as, "Those imbeciles [who[ disdain things terrestrial and hold [them] as belonging to all in common."  This was 130 years after Pentecost.
     
A Christian, Tertullian, wrote in 190 AD, "We have all things in common . . . except our wives!  This was 160 years after Pentecost.
     
So we can boldly say that what Jesus taught, the Holy Spirit enabled and the apostles exemplified, believers throughout the entire Roman Empire were still practicing more than 150 years later.  It seems it wasn't just a result of temporary local circumstances.

There are also writings from the days before Constantine speaking of wealthy Christians who had rooms in their homes able to hold several hundred people which were used for church gatherings (ie the home church). 
The fact that the early Christians modelled their worship and practices after Jewish ways should also give pause to those who think that church gatherings were spirit lead events with no structure or form.

Again, essentially the earliest Jewish Christians had Jewish ritual, not the gentiles believers and not so much those from Israel as they dispersed before the destruction of their age in 70 AD.  While believers met in large groups on special occaisions, usually grave yards because they were well tended large open spaces, for practicality they met in their homes.  This wasn't regular for many of them either because they were slaves.

There is nothing wrong with ritual - humans around the world and through out time have used it which indicates to me that there is something fundamental in our make-up which is drawn to rituals.  And rituals can be filled with meaning, with the movement of the holy spirit and create a connection which transcends time and place between its practitioners.  It is only when ritual is seen as a means unto itself, rather than as a practice through which one can experience and reach out to God's spirit that ritual becomes a problem.

I can just see it now!  Out on the hillside, above all the common folk, Jesus out front of the 12 apostles.  He has the highest funny hat and the most jewel bedecked robe.  The apostles also wear funny hats and clothes, different from how normal people dress.  From a distance it looks something like they're playing "Simon Says."  Maybe they're doing "The Hokey Pokey."  All I can tell is that sometimes they all stand, then they turn to the left three times and say something, once to each of the four directions, north, south, east, west.  Now they're kneeling and Jesus is standing and waving his arms in circles...and so on and on!  Now why doesn't this look like Jesus and His followers as the N.T. describes them?

There's also nothing wrong with using the spiritual gift of teaching.  Some have the gift of prophesy and those who do not shouldn't feel badly about this - they should seriously consider the messages of those who God has gifted in this way.  Likewise, some have a gift of teaching which allows them to explain things of God in ways that others may not be able to come to on their own.  Those who do not have this gift shouldn't feel bad about it, nor should they scorn it's use.

The gift is Jesus.  When we received Jesus did He come into us?  Is it Him that abides in us, or just a part of Him?  In this passage (Eph 4:10-13), apostles, prophets, etc. are all describing how the nature of Christ functions.  He's "the apostle and high-priest of our profession."  He's the prophet like unto Moses.  Our maturity is measured by how available we are to His expressing Himself through us.  All that He is or does is in us individually and collectively.  It's only a matter of how much of "The Call" we can hear.  We are not to stop short (Heb 4:1) of the measure of "the fullness of Christ."  God says, "You ought to all be teachers..." (Heb 5:12)  "You can all be prophesying, one by one..." (1 Cor 14:31)  These are samples of what God wants for us all. HE HIMSELF is what was and is given to us.  Our teaching increases in shepherding, and, as we are going forth in a widening arena of witness are more evangelistic.  Deepening in the mysteries of God we enter on into the prophetic; which, in turn, as we grow in experience qualifies us for the ambassadorial sending.  The apostle has further to grow, pressing into the complete victory of Christ, even over the last enemy,if by any means possible, to be "attaining into the out resurrection out from among the dead." (Phil 3:11)  There really isn't room anywhere in Institutional Christianity to grow to this extent.  My experience is that those in her are the persecutors of whoever would reach for this.  Really, it has to occur in such a way that God and no "system" gets the credit.  We are not joined to an organization in an area we are to be joined to Christ alone.  What do you think Mystical Babylon, the Great Whore is?  "I betroth you to one Man, to present a chaste virgin to Christ." (2 Cor 11:2)  My hope is that we may be witnessing God bringing out under His own authority those who are the Overcomers, who will be of those who Daniel describes as "the holy ones of El-Elyon."  "And the kingdom and the jurisdiction and the majesty of the kingdom under the entire heavens will be granted to the people of the saints of the Most High (El-Elyon.") (Dan 7:27)

In order for those who have the gift of teaching to use their gifts properly, they would need to spend every waking hour speaking to people individually or in very small groups of 20 or less in home churches if they are to be constricted to the idea that it is wrong to teach to large groups.  Different gifts work best in different settings and just as in Jesus' day teaching is often quite effective and can touch large numbers of people quickly in a setting of more than a handful of people.

Besides the internet, you can get the CD!  These pulpit hogs never let anyone else get a crumb in their big meetings.  The venue of Religious palaces for the parade of the latest flavor of prophet or teacher of the month is not the expression of the local body of Christ in His many membered glory.  If it's used as a gateway for the carnal to access the body ministry meetings and provide a financial base for more good works in the community...who am I to deny how God may lead some in transition or that stradle the fence.  On the other hand, holding pens to either go on into the slaughter or what?  Actually I believe there are individuals prophecied in Scripture who will have planet wide ministries and humanity will hear them!  Get free!  If we are to proceed into the fulness of Christ we certainly aren't going to have church as usual!

Finally, while it is a very, very unfortunate truth that many churches today are not the best places for the hurt and needy to stay in the long term, the fact of the matter is that many people, when they are at the end of their rope and usually out of desperation, find their way through the doors of a church.  I have met people in this situation many times in church and I can guarentee you that if there was not a church there for them to go into, they would not have shown up on my doorstep looking for answers.

So needy people who are very inexperienced in the ways of God and ignorant of His word should set the standard of what we should be doing as the body of Christ?  Are we to function for their convenience or at the disposal of the Holy Spirit?  Yes we are to care and help those in need; but, we are not to become enablers for those unwilling to bend their stiff necks and bow their hard hearts to the admonition of the Lord.  How many churches do you know of that provide for those who are unemployed, maybe chronicaly, and homeless as well?

I think we are in danger of allowing our completely justified disgust with workings and practices of the mass of churches we have today warp our thinking about how to meet the legitimate needs of people to experience connections with others, be taught, grow spiritually, serve in community and be served by others. 
Just my  :2c:

So do it differently.  Simple Church, everybody participating, at home so there's money for real needs, not just buildings.  Sure, we can get together in bigger groups here and there, but not to the overthrow our being a body for Christ without human headship in honor of the living, present and only Head of the body.

---James Rohde
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 07:33:22 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Hennessey

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2007, 11:03:44 AM »
James you are on fire tonight.

That was good ......... that was very good!

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8431
  • Gender: Female
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2007, 12:15:46 PM »
James said,"The gift is Jesus.  When we received Jesus did He come into us?  Is it Him that abides in us, or just a part of Him?  In this passage, apostles, prophets, etc. are all describing how the nature of Christ functions.  He's "the apostle and high-priest of our profession."  He's the prophet like unto Moses.  Our maturity is measured by how available we are to His expressing Himself through us.  All that He is or does is in us individually and collectively.  It's only a matter of how much of "The Call" we can hear."

 :cloud9: James, for the sake of space I didn't quote the whole thing. You don't know how long I have waited to hear someone else say the above. All I can say is, thank You Father. Blessings to you.......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline hopeful

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1090
  • Gender: Female
  • He was there!
    • To Know Him More
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2007, 01:31:13 PM »
I know that churches have serious issues, but I think we can be too quick to dismiss the idea altogether.  

Hi, Rebecca!   :girlheart:  I'm glad you're here!

Even though you'll find a variety of ideas here about the church, I don't think any of us "dismiss the idea altogether".  It's simply a matter of how one views the church and its function.   :HeartThrob:

I think the key is to do what you feel the Lord is leading you to do.  You shared in your introduction post that you and your husband were going to start a church but that's not what my husband and I have been led to do.  :HeartThrob:

In the past, when I've been given direction from the Lord, it was easy for me to think that others should do as I do but I don't think that's a good idea anymore.  It's also easy to be defensive of what we're called to do.  But now, there's such a sweet peace and rest that comes with following the Spirit and not expecting others to understand or follow in the same way.

Rebecca, I would encourage you and your husband to follow the Lord in that which you think He's calling you and don't let it bother you if others don't agree.

A pituitary gland several states over, :winkgrin:
Holly
You're welcome to visit http://toknowhimmore.blogspot.com/

joian

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2007, 03:31:07 PM »
Quote
There really isn't room anywhere in Institutional Christianity to grow to this extent.  My experience is that those in her are the persecutors of whoever would reach for this.  Really, it has to occur in such a way that God and no "system" gets the credit.  We are not joined to an organization in an area we are to be joined to Christ alone.  What do you think Mystical Babylon, the Great Whore is?  "I betroth you to one Man, to present a chaste virgin to Christ." (2 Cor 11:2)  My hope is that we may be witnessing God bringing out under His own authority those who are the Overcomers, who will be of those who Daniel describes as "the holy ones of El-Elyon."  "And the kingdom and the jurisdiction and the majesty of the kingdom under the entire heavens will be granted to the people of the saints of the Most High (El-Elyon.") (Dan 7:27)


This was magnificient............in that it enabled me to see light in every area of the path I'm on.........your writing is a window James..........How ironic, to see it contrasted against the old...........brought me up short, in my thinking. That gift in you is light my brother...........and there are certainly some in this place who will go to all humanity...........your words deeply moved me...........all of them.

And I with Card and Jack, say amen, our hearts long to hear such a hope.......and sight into this new sound  that is drawing and pulling us.

Joian
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 03:36:39 PM by joian »

rebeccat

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2007, 12:52:08 AM »
I guess my thing is just that it's not an either or thing.  Either we live in the spirit as the body of Christ or we deny that spirit and go to church.  That's a completely bogus dicotomy!  Like saying either we eat food or we enjoy cooking. 
And of course Jesus is the gift!  At the same time, Paul speaks of us having spiritual gifts and having different spiritual gifts.  And even to the extent that the gifts are generally available to us to develop as we mature - we are meant to live inter-connected with eachother, not as self-contained units who have all we need within ourselves.   For example, my husband's gift of discernment is much stronger than mine - particularly in certain areas, so I frequently look to him for assistance in this area even as I work to strengthen myself in this area.  Likewise, I have a stronger gift of wisdom than my husband, so he looks to me for help in uderstanding things, even as he works to grow in these areas as well.  Others have other gifts and a good church should have a place for all to practice those gifts they are strongest in while maturing in others they feel called to.  This doesn't happen in most churches, but it worked in the early churches (even those "house churches" which had hundreds of members) and for those who are willing to submit to the Spirit and humbly understand that one gift is not more important or to be revered (or dispised) more than another, there's no reason this can't happen again.
I'm certainly no legalist who would claim that you HAVE to be connected to a church.  My family has gone through several times where we didn't set foot in a church for years and it was the right thing for us at those times.  However, I also know that as hopeful says, just because God has called one person to do something, such as step outside of any physically bound church system, this in no way means that it is His ultimate will for all people or even for one person through all time. 
I have had good experiences in churches and bad.  I have seen churches which are alive in the Spirit and those that are dead.  I have seen charasmatic churches which were pits from hell and ancient rituals where the presence of the Spirit was so thick you could practically taste it.  We all know that God cannot be dictated to.  He will work as He sees fit - even in ways that are completely contradictory for different people at different times.  I just think there's something very wrong with creating false dicotomies where in we choose to live in the Spirit or live in a church and even worse when we try and dictate, according to our own understanding (even if it is divinely inspired understanding given for our specific lives) how God will and will not work.  Especially since people have needs which as a body we should be ready to meet with something better than, "well, if you were mature enough in the Lord, you wouldn't need someone to teach you or to see people face-to-face or need any sort of assistance ever from a real live human being - after all, God's spirit is enough.  Now, go be mature!"  Sorry, that's not going to cut it for the majority of folks who are out there struggling just to figure what end's up.

Yahschild

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2007, 09:17:15 PM »
Reformer said:

"Simple Church, everybody participating, at home so there's money for real needs, not just buildings."


I add:

I certainly think this is a good way to do it.  Unfortunately, when there is a "building", the focus does seem to shift to getting bigger, better, and more--more--more! 

HolySpiritWithin

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2007, 06:47:36 AM »
:reachout: :goodpost:   all of it!
I recognize I am a little behind in responding to posts... but if I may still respond to these questions: #1.  What do you think would happen to Christians – if all the 'houses of worship' doors were locked shut? Meaning,  all so-called Christian churches…..all Catholic churches,  Protestant churches and Cathedrals. #2.  What do you think would happen to Christians – if all Bibles….if everyone them were confiscated? Meaning, no more Bibles to read.

Such... spiritually speaking took place in my life.... and through the process Father continued to fellowship with me, continued to cause me to become Who HE intended me to be in Christ.  He continued to lead me into all truth... to transform my inner man... and to draw me into a deeper union with HIM... as HE caused me to grow and mature while HE shook that which was shakable.. through a dark night of my soul and spiritual senses and resurrected it with fruit.

In 1988... Father asked me these same questions... and I felt 'fear' come all over me... it was then He reminded me I was not raised in church... and how HE revealed HimSelf to me outside of a church environment. He also reminded me before I was born of His Spirit, I had a learning disability which kept me from understanding and comprehending the Bible... until I received the Holy Spirit and asked the Spirit of the Lord to teach me... lead me.. empower me, heal and deliever me and the like.

At the same time, the Spirit of the Lord also convicted me I was giving my power away ... in a negative sense... in that I was 'running by those in leadership', that which I believed the Spirit of the Lord was revealing to me, for their approval.... due to a lack of confidence in HIS power within me (something they encouraged, through their desire to be my head)... such caused me to get caught up in the 'shepherding movement'... the Founder of which, has since declared such a movement to be false ... stating Christ is our head.... not a man. I now encourage everyone... to take that which is offered by me or another... and as the Spirit of the Lord to reveal the truth of it... so that which is not truth can be exposed as well.

Father continued ... His admonishment... convicting me I had made an Idol of those in leadership... of corporate worship... of traditional Christian Fellowship... of Christian Conferences... tapes... books, *to include the bible....  of having a ministry for the Lord and the like. I repented and surrendered all to HIM for purification.

The Spirit of the Lord made me aware I was in danger of becoming out of balance and legalistic in my thinking... and showed me how my focus was off.... revealing to me some distorted thinking I had received by surrendering to those in leadership, who were self appointed and on ego building trips, without asking for HIS confirmation or seeking HIS truth on my own first.  *when we come together with another who is walking along side... such confirmations are faith building.

It was then He asked me to come out of traditional 'organized religion' churchianity   and to lay down all religious activities/readings/conferences/belief systems for a season of consecration alone with HIM... (reminding me the Apostle Paul went through such before HE was sent out, to set him free from Pharasitical belief systems and inherited religious traditions), that I may live that which I believe experientially through the faith HIS Spirit intimately imparted... as HE shook away that which was shakable, so all which remained would be that which had gone through HIS resurrection power and purification process.   It was during that season I was given the following vision of His Church: See next post 

Having gone through such... I have since discovered Father speaks to us through all of life... when we open ourselves to hear; and the Bible is to be utilized as a guideline... a book of witness.... while keeping in mind, it is subject to limited thinking/understanding/interpretation.... and inherited teachings/traditions, which were not always tested by those who were on the receiving end. HE has also revealed to me... Christian writings through HIS Own up to the present ... is a continuation of the Bible... just not in the inherited traditional sense.  The Bible, anointed writings are living witnesses to HIS abiding Presence and Spirit among us... as well as ...............

Also discovered... I never have a lack of Christian fellowship. Believers are everywhere.. as are non believers, one discovers this when one follows His leading and is not fearful of what might be 'out there' .... where it is unfamiliar. Plus... through HIS grace, Father called others out with me... (we fellowshipped over meals and shared a season of having all things in common, through community living initially). When the season for that came to an end... (in that form), was sent to the market places, high ways and by ways to to speak... to encourage/edify those who believe they are going to hell because they can't abide in going to church, for myriads of reasons... one being they saw the glory of the Lord in some cases had departed, to be replaced by vain traditions and empty rituals and greed... manifested through the lust of the eye, lust of the flesh and pride of life and judgmental attitudes. Along the way I met some who were going through a crisis of faith, having become disillusioned with the traditional church, who they were looking to, to feed them, rather than seeking to hear from the Spirit of the Lord one on one... other's were continuing to seek and follow after the Lord, just not in the traditional church environments... and were delighted to meet others who too were called out... to follow HIM where ever HE might lead as they grow and are becoming conformed into the image of Christ.

There seemed to be a spiritual famine taking place... for those who were not pressing in to Him one on one, but were looking FIRST to another or a sacred place.  Recognition of this caused them to press in.... or turn from their ways of being which were no longer working for them to seek HIS will anew.  Those who had heard His call to come out... were continuing to grow. 

I do not regret my season in of visiting churches... Father imparted much in the process... but am blessed to know... I have grown to the place where I can discern when something no longer serves me... nor am I to serve it in such a way as to preserve distorted thinking and ways of being.  Again.. I would encourage all... ask for confirmation for yourself... for we are each as aspect of HIS body in a different place of growth... and we can rest in the fact Father works all out for to good... especially as HE brings about a new way of being.

So in conclusion.... may I offer... when such does take place... spiritually speaking, or through actual circumstances as you described above..... Father has ordained it for our good. We can bless Father in the knowing of this... and the awareness He continues to speak... to fellowship with us... to break through when necessary... fulfilling HIS promise to us... He will never leave us or forsake us...  HE will keep us ... and present us spotless before HIS glorious throne of grace.

HolySpiritWithin

  • Guest
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2007, 06:49:30 AM »
Vision I received when I was told to come out of organized religion for a season of consecration (continuation of post above): ~ As is my custom as each new year approaches... I ask Father... "what are your plans for the future?" Just before the decade of the 1990's... in response to this question while in the middle of two 40 day liquid fasts, I began to receive this vision of the future of the church. It came through words I heard from deep within... scenes in my minds eye... and impressions I received... as the Spirit of God spoke to my heart.... that our hearts might become one. It came in the language of the Spirit... a language Jesus used and continues to use in my life... which for me is highly symbolic. May I suggest that you ask the Holy Spirit to give you Father's interpretation of it... as well as His spiritual discernment before you read on... if it is not your habit to do so already? That which you are about to read must be spiritually discerned.... for some it may explain what has taken place already ... or what is taking place... or soon will. Bless You Father for ears to hear... eyes to see... a heart to receive and the mind of Christ that we can understand and perceive and be empowered through Your eternal Spirit. ~

While in prayer... the Spirit of the Lord gave me a vision of a Holy temple... fully destroyed, except for the foundation. The foundation that was left standing was the chief cornerstone... which I understood represented Jesus Christ and God's messages which came through Him. The rest of the stones which were left... was that which Almighty God had placed... through inspiring His Prophets and Apostles of old and through the outpourings of His Spirit since.

I was aware a spiritual tidal wave had come in... and wiped everything else out... as far as the eye could see... so that all which remained was God's work and not mans. I knew the temple represented the Spirit of Christ residing in the Bride of Christ... each individual believer. I was aware God Himself had swept His hand over His Holy Temple... His church... and in doing so... had knocked down that which was not in Christ's image.... but was a work of the flesh inspired by vain imaginations and inherited traditions, rooted in fear... legalistic teachings and not His love.

I was given understanding... the church as it was known at that time... would no longer exist in the future. Father was unfolding His eternal plan for her... and she was about to go through a season of weakness... even a sense of powerlessness for some, a time of fiery trials for many... so she might be emptied out to receive that which was coming... an outpouring of His Spirit far greater than man has known to date.

The Holy Spirit brought to remembrance... the time of Nehemiah... where the walls of the temple had been torn down due to idolatry... and were mere rubble... and I thought of Nehemiah having to access the damage... before the temple was to be rebuilt. I said... "Lord, the only protection we have from the enemy of our Soul is You." ... I understood, this was His intention.

It was then I heard: "The time has come for the Spirit of the Lord Himself to fill His Holy Temple ... His Bride ... that she might become one with her Bridegroom through their union. Judgment has come against her 'body'... to purify and transform her through fire. The season for her to grow as an adult has come... she is to put away childish things, of which many have become idols and hinder her growth.


No longer do I want to hear her cry out 'we need to get back to the way the early church was'... that was her infancy.. and those who have come before her are becoming idols in her eyes.... It is time for her to grow and become mature as the Bride of Christ, adorned for her husband. It became clear through the Spirit of God within me... that the ways we've seen things done in the past are over... for they are limited, compared to that which HE alone would bring into being. I understood HE would be bringing forth a new breed of Apostles and Prophets... for His purpose alone. I knew when those called to their roles were sent forth... after having gone through a time of consecrations and transformation... alone with HIM... it would not be in the ways we think... or have become use to. Even the mark of the Apostles and Prophets... signs and wonders and miracles... had not yet been conceptualized in the mind of man. Our limited concept of their office... their call... their function... will be changed ... such prevents a work of the flesh from arising in man's efforts to duplicate that which HE alone can bring into being.

In order for this to be brought about... His Bride was being called, like Nehemiah to look at the rubble before her... and to assess the damage and to pray and abide in His love... remembering His promises... which would bring her into HIS manifest Presence.

It was then... through His Spirit... I remembered Adam and Eve in the garden. I came to understand... through the nature of the fall... they and their descendants had built their own temple... which was tainted with fleshly understanding.... the nature of man. I was aware... that through the generations since Christ... His Bride had gone through a fleshy, so to speak, stage of building the temple... by faith.... she had done that which she thought she was supposed to do... with an earnest heart.

Through His love for her... God's Spirit had come... and by His Spirit HE was returning her to His enclosed garden. I saw she had been brought to maturity and was ready to be given to her Bridegroom that they might become one.

He showed me the garden she had been taken from... it was polluted. I asked, "Why is her garden polluted?"

He replied, "Her garden had been a public garden... exposed for all to come through. She has chosen to abide there... that others may partake of the work of her hands... rather than abiding in My garden that we may drink of living waters and flow together."

It was then I saw a great 'body' of people crying to the Lord for forgiveness for the sins of the world... abortion, drugs, porno and the like. This body was running to and fro... carrying many issues... making demands... pointing fingers... and commanding: "Keep God's Laws".

Grieved... Father spoke and said: "She has forgotten from where she came... she was saved through My grace. She has forgotten, I and I alone give her power to keep My law. How can she expect others to do that which she can only do through the grace of My Spirit awakened within her? She has forgotten only My Holy Spirit can convict someone of their sin and of My love. She has forgotten she is to preach the good news of the gospel of the Kingdom. She has forgotten, she is to allow me to raise up My standard through her lifestyle of my living through her as she dies to the old... that she might find a new life hid in Christ, through our union. As she does... those who are lost will see and be drawn to My love. She has forgotten she was created to walk in My love."

I saw deep within my Spirit... this 'body' was not yet fully separate from the flesh nature... from the world's way of thinking and being, as He said to me, "I hear many who cry from among them... repeatedly begging me: 'Lord, we've humbled ourselves and repented... Heal our land!' Yet some who cry out... are not repenting for their own sin... but for the sins of the world... of those they see as separate from themselves, they are afraid My judgment will come upon them... because of the sins of another.... they do not yet know Me in my fullness. Did I not protect my people in the land of Goshen when my judgments exposed the false God's of Egypt? Because this body cannot see... their own sin... I am exposing sin among their own.... through their leaders, for judgment begins in the household of God.... and if I do not bring in My light... the blind will continue to lead the blind. Come out from among them lest you become one with their sin."


Suddenly, His Spirit burned within me a greater awareness of... His desires to heal our land... our private lives... a greater awareness of His work which had already begun and would come to fruition through the ways He knew were best... ways we might not understand, but ways we could trust He would work out for the good in the end.

It was then I became aware of the sins of many... rooted in unbelief... which resulted in lies... abuse... perversion... hate... death... fear and other dark deeds of the heart and I heard the Lord say: "I have turned them over to their own will... to a reprobate mind, that they might come to the end of themselves and choose life and it more abundantly through Christ. I do not desire the generation of those who would remain in darkness... and inner turmoil to prosper in their present state. Do they not have a choice... is not my law written within their hearts... within their conscience... that they might discern good from evil? Can they not return to ME and My ways... and repent whenever they are convicted by My love... of the grace I offer them? When they do... My Bride must be ready... she must be a city of refuge... a city set upon My Holy Mountain for all to see my indwelling Presence... as I draw them back to Me and nurture and love them through my Bride."

The scene changed and in my spirit I saw His Bride was then brought to an enclosed garden... an abiding place, where she was separated... to become alone with her Bridegroom... so their love might grow... and transform her... and others through their union.

As she entered the garden prepared for her... I saw the Angel of the Lord standing there... guarding the entrance... with a fiery sword in hand. He smiled... and presented it to her.. and said: "Now the two shall become as one."

This garden instantly changed into a bridal chamber... it became a garden of life... where spiritual children would come forth through her time alone in intimacy with her spouse.... as they supped together on the food HE had prepared for her.

When the scene changed before me... I became one with her in the spirit realm and I knew her heart; Upon entering... and taking sword in hand... she was impressed immediately how much she was not one with her bridegroom. In her passion to give Him her whole self she was grieved that she had not received more of Him in return.... So much love yet to be given... she thought. She had spent years with Him... yet... they were not as a couple who through years of intimately knowing one another knew the others next thought and intent, without having to ask. She had become aware of her need for their love to grow and mature.... through a deeper union. She recognized her love had been based upon feelings of excitement and delight in discovering His love... and all it offered... yet her sorrow quickly changed to joy and she understood... she had been brought to this place of abiding in HIS eternal love... by Him... and no matter what happened, all would be well with her Soul, for this had been a part of His plan all along.

She cried out, "If it pleases You my love... awaken our love anew... stir up our love my Lord... that the two of us shall surely walk as ONE through our union."

Immediately, I saw Him building His Holy Temple ... The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb as His Temple ... it soon became her abiding place of rest... His secret place of eternal light and love for her.

She was resting in His love... it had been His only requirement.

By His abilities... and His grace alone.. she would watch HIM build the temple, with complete trust... as only HE and HE alone knew it was to be done. Then truly... when the capstone was finally set in place... she would shout, "Grace! Grace!", for indeed with grace and grace alone it would be accomplished through the two having become ONE.

Next, I became aware... God Himself was raising up Apostles and Prophets... who would be going forth with His unlimited power... called like John the Baptist... and Elijah... as witnesses to His own.... and those who would respond to His love... calling for repentance... and openness... "The Kingdom of God has come... it is here among you... destroy your idols... open your Spirits to His love anew... a double portion anointing has been released... the early rains and the latter rains have arrived together. Receive that which His Spirit offers you... look no longer to man... Receive from His Spirit awakened within you."

It was then I understood His Bride... would answer His call to come away... so she could be alone with Him... that she would receive from His Spirit directly, no longer putting her trust in a man or man's system.

Through the uniting of their hearts... she would accept and embrace those who are lost... as seeds within the womb of life... yet to be brought forth... in His timing.... through His ways... birthed through love and a deep peace from within.

I knew... and understood.... Christ Himself... would be Lord with His Bride at His side... through their Spiritual union... for His Spirit had brought her to the place of wanting it so, through love...

www.EnterRest.com

 

Offline hopeful

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1090
  • Gender: Female
  • He was there!
    • To Know Him More
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2007, 02:04:36 PM »
Father continued ... His admonishment... convicting me I had made an Idol of those in leadership... of corporate worship... of traditional Christian Fellowship... of Christian Conferences... tapes... books, *to include the bible....  of having a ministry for the Lord and the like. I repented and surrendered all to HIM for purification.

 :goodpost:

Hi, Bren!

I'm glad you were able to come see us here! 
I Enjoyed both your posts here and could relate to the above.
It's so fascinating to see what the Lord can do with people!

 :HeartThrob:
Holly
You're welcome to visit http://toknowhimmore.blogspot.com/

Offline Cardinal

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 8431
  • Gender: Female
Re: If all churches and Bibles were gone.
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2007, 03:58:16 PM »
 :cloud9: THANK YOU FATHER, WE GIVE YOU PRAISE THIS DAY! Blessings to you...... :HeartThrob:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor