Author Topic: Identifying evil  (Read 9198 times)

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Offline legoman

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Identifying evil
« on: November 02, 2012, 09:49:29 PM »
I got into this strange conversation over at the CARM forums.

Namely we were discussing if there was anything that would be pure evil for God to do - for example would God send babies to be tormented forever.  Some there do believe this.

So I posed a hypothetical:
Suppose God tortured kittens for ever.  We know this would not be a good thing to do, therefore we can safely understand that God does not torture kittens for ever.

To my surprise I got into an argument.  People wanted to know why it would be bad for God to forever torture kittens.

I tried to explain that it would be evil, it would be unkind, it would be wrong to cause pain forever on a helpless creature that you yourself created, and since God says He does not lie and He is not unkind, we know God would not do this.

Yet I continued to get arguments and protests that God could do this if He wanted and it would be A-OK.

 :dontknow:

After a while I realized something.  Many people cannot identify the difference between good and evil...

Any thoughts on this?

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 10:43:40 PM »
 :2c:There is a psychiatric term asnd we all do it at times. It's called "double think"
Double think is holding two differing and sometimes complete opposite opinions about a subject, belief, or idea.
So yes, it is quite possible for people to believe that God is love and at the same time torture kittens forever.
Maybe in their minds, yes, God could torture kittens forever because they reason, God can do anything he wants to do and if he wants to torture kittens, he must have a good reason that we can't see from out limited point of view.

Deeper than that to me, is if Christ had only to die for atonement of our sins, why was he also beaten, why the thirty nine lashes, why the crown of thorns and his beard pulled out by the roots and why was he mocked? Why not just a quick simple death like a spear in his side?
The Father could have certainly arranged that.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline sheila

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2012, 11:41:56 PM »
why would Jesus say we have to forgive those who  treespass against us..to be 'perfect' like the Father in heaven

  would God  require of us a to 'forgive men their sins' ifHe does not?  I don't think so.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2012, 11:50:25 PM »
Could it be that we should forgive because God has forgiven us. God, being perfect, does not have to forgive does he?
But He does. So once we are forgiven of all the sins we have committed, isn't it a small thing to forgive minor trespasses against us?
"Love hardly notices when others do it wrong"
Yes Sheila, being conformed to the image of Jesus the son, we must forgive.
"Forgive them Father,. for they know not what they do"
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline sheila

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2012, 12:10:49 AM »
so then..God is Love..shows us His nature..that though we crucify HIM with slanderous allegations

  of His character and divine nature of LOVE...He doesn't keep record of the injury. the ignorance of HIM

  makes us easily deceived..by the original slanderer

Offline thinktank

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2012, 07:21:55 AM »
:2c:There is a psychiatric term asnd we all do it at times. It's called "double think"
Double think is holding two differing and sometimes complete opposite opinions about a subject, belief, or idea.
So yes, it is quite possible for people to believe that God is love and at the same time torture kittens forever.
Maybe in their minds, yes, God could torture kittens forever because they reason, God can do anything he wants to do and if he wants to torture kittens, he must have a good reason that we can't see from out limited point of view.

Deeper than that to me, is if Christ had only to die for atonement of our sins, why was he also beaten, why the thirty nine lashes, why the crown of thorns and his beard pulled out by the roots and why was he mocked? Why not just a quick simple death like a spear in his side?
The Father could have certainly arranged that.


1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


Offline eaglesway

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2012, 07:58:39 AM »
I got into this strange conversation over at the CARM forums.

Namely we were discussing if there was anything that would be pure evil for God to do - for example would God send babies to be tormented forever.  Some there do believe this.

So I posed a hypothetical:
Suppose God tortured kittens for ever.  We know this would not be a good thing to do, therefore we can safely understand that God does not torture kittens for ever.

To my surprise I got into an argument.  People wanted to know why it would be bad for God to forever torture kittens.

I tried to explain that it would be evil, it would be unkind, it would be wrong to cause pain forever on a helpless creature that you yourself created, and since God says He does not lie and He is not unkind, we know God would not do this.

Yet I continued to get arguments and protests that God could do this if He wanted and it would be A-OK.

 :dontknow:

After a while I realized something.  Many people cannot identify the difference between good and evil...

Any thoughts on this?

This is what happens when a point of doctrine becomes more important to someone than any and all other scripture or reason or philosophy. It is what Paul called "towers and strongholds". These are beachheads or fortresses the adversary has established in the minds of unenlightened people who think they know God but do not know Him- they have "an image set up in the holy place" and they worship it thinking it is Christ when it is really anti-Christ. They are carnal, 666(man's systematic theology masquerading as the true knowledge of God) is in their heads. They blind and led by blind guides. They definitely do not know the difference between good and evil, as is always the case with natural men and carnal believers- a case Paul laid out for some of the Corinthians- and that Jesus laid out for some of the churches in the first three chapters of John's Revelation. God have mercy on them

Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
(2Co 4:1-6)

Thank God that He will have all men to be saved, even them LOL


"
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2012, 04:06:03 AM »

Deeper than that to me, is if Christ had only to die for atonement of our sins, why was he also beaten, why the thirty nine lashes, why the crown of thorns and his beard pulled out by the roots and why was he mocked? Why not just a quick simple death like a spear in his side?
The Father could have certainly arranged that.

Jesus the Christ should have only had to die simply and with little pain, like Isaac would have under his own father's hand, had God not put a stop to it.  The altar was there in Jerusalem, and the priest to shed His blood, but Jesus suffered much more than He had to, because His people were so sinful and unbelieving.  There is surely a lot of symbolic meaning also in what Jesus suffered, and unlike Moses, Jesus was not going to mar the symbol.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2012, 09:04:46 AM »
Of course and also, Jesus' suffering was absolutely real, and any symbolic meaning we draw from it would be meaningless without the actual agony of His experience undergone willingly for our redemption :o)
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Offline Molly

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2012, 09:15:00 AM »
Quote from: Legoman
After a while I realized something. Many people cannot identify the difference between good and evil...

That's why it's part of our job on this earth.


12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

--Heb 5

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2012, 03:43:32 PM »
 :iagree:

Yes, Molly, I come here for Strong Meat.

"Blessed are those who eat for strength and not for drunkenness."
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2012, 06:56:46 PM »
I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
(1Co 2:3-10)
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Offline sheila

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2012, 12:27:27 AM »
un huh...hidden wisdom..hidden manna

Offline Lazarus Short

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2012, 03:06:57 AM »
Hidden by the veil, soon to be removed.
Socrates taught Plato.  Plato taught Aristotle.  Aristotle tutored the son of Philip of Macedon.  This boy grew up to become Alexander the Great, largely by slaughtering a lot of people.  That's philosophy.

Jesus spoke the Truth.  He blessed the poor.  He healed the sick.  He even raised the dead.  He died on a cross for us, lived again, and came back long enough to tell us to love one another.  That's religion.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2012, 07:05:04 PM »
Not sure I understand the evil question.

First, I could not find the word torture in the Bible. I found torment and tormented G929 G928 G931 G939. And I understand this as spiritual, but then that is my understanding. And I also find that torment,
in the that sense, is a far greater pain than the physical. But then we read in Isa. 53:10 "YET it PLEASED Jehovah to bruise him.....

Isa 53:10  Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand.
Pleased H2654  delight, desire, favour, like, move, be (well) pleased, have pleasure, will, would.
Bruise H1792   beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.
Heb 12:5  And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9  Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10  For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11  Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
 Scourgeth  G3146  to flog (literally or figuratively from G3148 (through the idea of contact); a whip (literally the Roman flagellum for criminals; figuratively a disease): - plague, scourging.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2012, 08:55:48 PM »
Could it be that we should forgive because God has forgiven us. God, being perfect, does not have to forgive does he?
But He does. So once we are forgiven of all the sins we have committed, isn't it a small thing to forgive minor trespasses against us?
"Love hardly notices when others do it wrong"
Yes Sheila, being conformed to the image of Jesus the son, we must forgive.
"Forgive them Father,. for they know not what they do"

I M O
We are free
The Lord has purchased every bodies freedom.
There is no punishment of hell there is no punishment at all.

We are free to believe Jesus is the Son of God.
There are personnel benefits for believing .

We are free to forgive.
We are already forgiven for not forgiving each other.
Now you are free to forgive ,who you want to.
We had no authority to forgive.
Only God could forgive because only God could be offended.
Now he says "you are forgiven for not forgiving your neighbor.

Now you are free to forgive for no reason other than you realize
that you have the freedom to truly forgive.
To forgive with out getting .
to forgive because you have been GIVEN. The freedom.

We are free.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2012, 08:14:45 PM »
Gen 2:9  and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Gen 2:16  And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, `Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat;
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
For me this describes our first learning lesson, without this first step of experiencing knowledge, to discern, that of good and evil("ra ra ah" bad) would we need 2Co 5:18  But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19  to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Until the Father draws(drags) us to His Son Jesus, Rom 8:20  for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,
Rom 8:21  that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;

Evil is what man does UNTIL........... :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Paul L

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2012, 03:51:01 AM »
I M O
We are free
The Lord has purchased every bodies freedom.
There is no punishment of hell there is no punishment at all.

We are free to believe Jesus is the Son of God.
There are personnel benefits for believing .

We are free to forgive.
We are already forgiven for not forgiving each other.
Now you are free to forgive ,who you want to.
We had no authority to forgive.
Only God could forgive because only God could be offended.
Now he says "you are forgiven for not forgiving your neighbor.

Now you are free to forgive for no reason other than you realize
that you have the freedom to truly forgive.
To forgive with out getting .
to forgive because you have been GIVEN. The freedom.

We are free.

......and the greatest freedom we are given is to be free from fear of  the future.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 08:19:30 PM by Paul L »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2012, 04:18:53 PM »
Just wondering about the original post question?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2012, 05:25:52 PM »
Getting back to the original post
What I think is good. Anyone that disagrees with me is evil. :laugh:

Please don't take the above as serious in any way. I'm the kind of guy
that thinks everyone would enjoy God and life more if they would lighten
up a little... even tho' I'd be the first to admit that there is a record of
Jesus weeping and no record of Jesus laughing.
For kids to respond to him as he did, IMO, he at least smiled broadly. :laughing7:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline Molly

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2012, 06:26:10 PM »
It's not a time to lighten up, IMO.   It's a time to double down and press in.




For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

--Gal 5:13

Offline onlytruth

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2012, 09:26:49 PM »
IMO , time to rest from all our ways, and listen to what the spirit says.all our differences will be a mute point, so let's look forward with joy what He will do
Blessings

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2012, 09:51:22 PM »
It's not a time to lighten up, IMO.   It's a time to double down and press in.




For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

--Gal 5:13

Amen- Doubling down brings the double portion, the first-born's inheritance, Jacob's lot- Israel possessed in fruitfulness, Elisha's anointing (Elisha -"I want a double portion/firstborn's share of your anointing"- Elijah- "If you are following when I am caught up it will be yours")

14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes.


Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who "will rule all the nations with an iron scepter." And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Eph 4:7-16  But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.  Therefore it says,


"When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men."
 
 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?  He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline onlytruth

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2012, 11:08:53 PM »
We need to "know" where to double down,this is about to be revealed. Not because anything we do, but what He will do, the seventh day is the rest day, hear what the spirit says
Blessings

Offline micah7:9

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Re: Identifying evil
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 05:21:23 PM »
Ecc 11:2  Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.