I want your input on the "natural body."

[jabcat]

I don't think anyone was talking about saving oneself.  We were talking about holding on....

IMO, it's good to clarify, as many either teach that if they can't find some way within themselves to "hold on to the end" they're lost, and/or use language that can sound that way if not clarified.   It's possible if one hasn't seen that extreme side of churchianity and/or experienced it themselves, they may not realize the confusion and carnage left along the roadside of such beliefs.

I was sharing personal experience, as that's where I've spent the last 20 years coming from.

[Molly]

I don't think anyone was talking about saving oneself.  We were talking about holding on....

IMO, it's good to clarify, as many either teach that if they can't find some way within themselves to "hold on to the end" they're lost, and/or use language that can sound that way if not clarified.   It's possible if one hasn't seen that extreme side of churchianity and/or experienced it themselves, they may not realize the confusion and carnage left along the roadside of such beliefs.

I was sharing personal experience, as that's where I've spent the last 20 years coming from.

I keep forgetting that many here have had those experiences. so it's a bit of a mystery to me.   For me,  my relationship with God is so personal, I would never let another define it for me.   Recently, he's been showing me that he wants me to ask him for help with even the minor details of my life, whereas I have always been reluctant to ask for anything other than the most important--and I have enough of those to keep his angels busy lol.   But, when Peter says, 'Save me, Lord,' he is asking for help for what is going on in the moment--not asking for something eschatological.   And, Jesus doesn't hesitate to reach out a hand for Peter to hold onto as he sinks under the water, as if he would ever answer, 'save yourself.'   Our Savior is so wonderful.


Matthew 14:31
Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him.


"caught" [him]

G1949
ἐπιλαμβάνομαι
epilambanomai
ep-ee-lam-ban'-om-ahee
Middle voice from G1909 and G2983; to seize (for help, injury, attainment or any other purpose; literally or figuratively): - catch, lay hold (up-) on, take (by, hold of, on).

[jabcat]

Amen!  That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!  HIS strong and mighty hand.

That's interesting, how we (many) have such different experiences.  I'd be afraid to try to number the percentage of what I've needed to unlearn and relearn in my walk with Yesu.  Religion is a powerful teacher and shaper.  Then the Potter takes over...Glory to His name!

[Molly]

Amen!  That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!  HIS strong and mighty hand.

That's interesting, how we (many) have such different experiences.  I'd be afraid to try to number the percentage of what I've needed to unlearn and relearn in my walk with Yesu.  Religion is a powerful teacher and shaper.  Then the Potter takes over...Glory to His name!

PS I loved that story you shared about your daughter.  You used it to illustrate that you will hold onto her, even if she cannot hold on to you--but I saw that she knows that you are THE MAN to cleave to because you are trustworthy and love her,  and that will always serve her well as she grows up. You are illustrating Christ to her in real time.

[jabcat]

Thank you, that's touching.  God's blessings to you.

[Seth]

I don't think anyone was talking about saving oneself.  We were talking about holding on....

IMO, it's good to clarify, as many either teach that if they can't find some way within themselves to "hold on to the end" they're lost, and/or use language that can sound that way if not clarified.   It's possible if one hasn't seen that extreme side of churchianity and/or experienced it themselves, they may not realize the confusion and carnage left along the roadside of such beliefs.

I was sharing personal experience, as that's where I've spent the last 20 years coming from.

This is completely right. The bible says "work out (ie outwardly work) your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who both wills and works of his good pleasure." In all things, it is not us who are running, but Christ in us. Paul used a phrase multiple times that we also do well to remember: "I yet not I." He did that to show that outwardly it looked like Paul was doing the works. But in reality, he was resting from his own works, and the invisible hand of God was doing the works through him, in which Paul rested.

[Seth]

If Paul's not really talking about himself, that's one thing.  I'd want some really good proof that's not the case, never heard that before.

Also, it sure doesn't sound like he's saying he's perfect or will be made perfect in this life.  Sounds to me like he's looking forward to the resurrection, while continuing to struggle in this life.  Though He sees God's grace as being "sufficient", therefor, no condemnation.

HI Jabcat, I started the topic about it. Here it is. Come join me in conversation: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6385.0