I want your input on the "natural body."

[Seth]

I think it will continue for as long as the world needs Christ revealed to them through his Body.

[Molly]

I think it will continue for as long as the world needs Christ revealed to them through his Body.

Not sure what 'it' is but I think the world will change when the body of Christ stops being stuck at the cross.

The story continues after the cross...

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[Seth]

You know what's interesting about that? The moment you believe, you get nailed to the Cross with Christ. Old man slain, new man born. And both happen simultaneously daily. Getting stuck on the cross IS WHY we are blessed when we believe.

 

[jabcat]

Paul talked so much about being buffeted, only being able to see dimly, etc.  It seems to me He looked forward to deliverance from his body of sin and death.  I may be wrong, but that's how I understand.

Yes Seth, the spiritual overlayed on the physical...transcending or transfiguring as it were...until the corruptable puts on the incorruption...in the resurrection.  In the meantime, we carry the cross with us.

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable."

[Redlettervoice]

Well, I didn't "hear" Martin saying what yall did!!! Honest. I thought
he was saying exactly the same thing YOU are!  Of course, Paul
suffered!  He was "called" to suffer.  Those that suffer, shall
REIGN. Paul said he was "figuratively" using himself and Apollos
as an example NOT to think of man more highly than we should.
To think on Christ speaking "thru" man and even when "that"
happens when: HE breaks the bread that we are, it is HIM
also figuratively speaking.  That's what I got out of it anyway.
I ate the pure blood of the grape!!! I ate what I heard and I heard
what I heard by the Spirit and I have been quickened all day.
Even in my natural body, which was about to start yelling ha.
I feel soooooooooo much better!  I even "went" somewhere today.
I still rode in the buggy's but I left my walker at home!  I was
estatic! 
This was a feast to me......I never saw so much on "discerning
the body" and isn't it something that I started this thread asking
about the natural body and God turned my mind to HIS BODY.
Bless you all........

[jabcat]

Hallujah!  Thanks for the testimony.  Thank you God for helping our sister today.

[Seth]

HI Redletter  , confusion entered in right away, which is why we discussed it. I think it starts with different understandings of what Paul was transferring, and whether or not "figuratively" is the right understanding of what he was saying.

The phrase, "in a figure transferred" is not the same thing as "figuratively transferred" because the Greek word in question denotes a transfer of a form from one thing to another, whereas the word figurative suggests a non-literal understanding. Paul was taking the commandment not to judge and was transferring the figure of the words onto himself, as if to become the physical manifestation of the words. It's as if to say he was putting the words on, like a shirt, so that the church could see the words exemplified in action.

But, when the concept of "figurative" (a non-literal understanding) gets mixed in with "suffering" when neither the word "figurative" was meant, nor applied to suffering, one gets the impression that Paul didn't really suffer for the Gospel, that we shouldn't take his proclamations about his experiences with suffering as being something that literally happened, that it was all just figurative, that he was just playacting.

That's why I wanted to clarify. I disagree, and I think with good reason, if the suggestion is that Paul did not literally suffer for the Gospel. If that is not the message here, than I am glad we could clear it up so that meaning can be plainly understood.


 

[Molly]

this message is for setting you free so that by the Blood of Jesus, you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Colossians 3:17, et. al.). 

16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
 17And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

--Col 3





15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

 16To reveal his Son in me, ....

--Gal 1



1 Corinthians 13:12
And we see now [Forsooth we see now] by a mirror in darkness, but then face to face;...





2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, that said [the] light to shine of darknesses, he hath given light in our hearts, to the lightening of the science of the clearness of God [he hath enlightened in our hearts, to the illumining of the science of the clearness of God], in the face of Jesus Christ.

[Molly]

You draw upon the helmet of salvation by maintaining the oil of joy.  Too many passages to get into with that on how to reign with Him here, but Isaiah 12:2 says you draw from salvation/deliverance with joy, Song of Solomon 3:11 says it's on the day of your gladness of heart that you receive your crown (i.e. helmet of salvation) with which you rule in God's wisdom.  Jerry Savelle's got a book called "If Satan Can't Steal Your Joy, He Can't Keep Your Goods" on this very theme.  St. Paul gloried in tribulations, like anyone does that's believing God 'cause I know I'm going to win this one, so take your best shot, devil, and when the dust settles, God and I will still be standing and I'll have another testimony to tell of God's goodness and integrity to His Written Word and preach it all over the world from the top of the world to the bottom of the world and all of the way around it, until there's nowhere for you to hide! 

I just love this message, Martin.   The crown is achieved in this life--the helmet of salvation--.
perikephalaia sōtērion.


"the helmet" [of salvation]

G4030
περικεφαλαία
perikephalaia
per-ee-kef-al-ah'-yah
Feminine of a compound of G4012 and G2776; encirclement of the head, that is, a helmet: - helmet.


1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.


What other prize could be worth receiving but Christ?



16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize.

--Col 2





1The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!

 2Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.

 3For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.

--Psa 21


"a crown" [of pure gold]

H5849
עטר
‛âṭar
aw-tar'
A primitive root; to encircle (for attack or protection); especially to crown (literally or figuratively): - compass, crown.

[Seth]

2 Cor 1:21-22
Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest (arrhabōn - down payment) of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Cor 5:4-7
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest (arrhabōn - down payment) of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

Ephesian 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Romans 8:16-25
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope.  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

1John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[sheila]

Proverbs 12;4   a capable wife is a crown of Glory unto her

husbands head.


  well,Carlene, a little different perspective..macrocosm....

   God's spirit sons and daughters sent down[lowered] into

  little clay costumes...and taking on roles of good and evil,

  pre-written script of the creator of the Universe. Natural

  children of God sown in the earth.[exercize in good and evil]

   Each child in his individual vessel plays out the role ordained

 by God in this temporal life.

   Our Life is hidden in Christ...at His revealing we find our

  identity also. At the end of our earthly roles we disrobe

  our earthly garments and return home where are spiritual

garments are all prepared and waiting for us.

  These spiritual garments are our TRUE IDENTITY HIDDEN IN

CHRIST. SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD SENT TO

EARTH.Disguised in sinful roles[garments] disrobe and return

HOME.

  we are told from henceforth,to know NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH

 it is because any fleshy identity down here has nothing to do

 with the eternal identity of the sons and daughters of God


   We are fastly approaching the GRAND CLIMAX OF THIS

  CINERAMA PLAYED BELOW.

    The audience has watched the plot develope..good versus evil

  displayed  openly on this temporal plane.

   Evil appeared to have won out[impossible scenario!]

   But alas!! the REVEALING OF HIDDEN THINGS BEGIN TO MAKE

  THEMSELVES KNOWN. THE HERO IS SHOWN--LIES AND

  INTRIGUES ARE EXPOSED. The Grand illusion REVEALED

   At the GREAT CURTAIN CALL THE ACTORS BOW OUT OF THE

  TEMPORAL AND TAKE THEIR PLACE IN THE AUDITORIUM

  TO WATCH THE GRAND FINALE.

      AH! But there is to be a whole NEW Act a NEW HEAVEN..A

  NEW EARTH SHOWING TRUTH.

  

[Seth]

Anyway....

[Molly]

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Paul is always pointing us ahead to something mysterious.  Here it is to 'the glory which shall be revealed in us.

But, if we read closely,  we can see that what he is pointing us to has already happened for him--



15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

 16To reveal his Son in me, ....

--Gal 1

[Seth]

Two manifestations of the promise: the earnest, and the completion.

We receive the Spirit to act as parts of the body, where Christ received it fully and without measure. We receive a measured amount so that we may fit into a many membered body which does different things (are all healers? are all the foot? etc)

So while we have been translated into the kingdom and are seated with Christ, we, in patience wait for all to be fulfilled. That is why Paul spoke both as having received, and also waiting for the completion. The kingdom is like a net full of fish. Some fish are bad, some good. When the fisherman pulls the net into the boat, he proceeds to remove the bad fish and keep the good ones. That is what the kingdom (peace in the spirit and service to Christ according to Paul) is like.

The peace and service are being picked through by the fisherman until only good fish remain. Christ is being revealed in us, yet show me a person who says they are without sin, and I will show you a liar who has no Truth in them.

Two manifestations of the promise: the earnest, and the full redemption of the purchased possession.

[Seth]

Naturally, we would ask, why two manifestations of the promise? Why does not God not give it all at once?

Three words, three reasons: Hope, Patience, Faith

[Molly]

yet show me a person who says they are without sin, and I will show you a liar who has no Truth in them.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

--Rom 8

[Seth]

Does that show that those people who walk after the Spirit do not have sin? No, because if they say that, they are liars and the truth is not in them. So, rather than present a scripture to contradict another, harmonize them.

The scripture you quoted does not have to do with whether or not people HAVE sin, but whether they continue to ABIDE in sin. One may have sin, and the temptations and struggles that accompany it, but walk free of slavery to it.

[Seth]

When you understand the two manifestations of the promise (the earnest, and the redemption of the purchased possession) then you will understand why we have already come to New Jerusalem (the bride) yet we also eagerly await the city.

The city we are in is being purged of bad fish. The city we wait for doesn't have any bad fish. Same city, completed process.

You'll understand why we were saved from sin, why we are being saved from sin, and why he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Same salvation, completed process.

[jabcat]

Does that show that those people who walk after the Spirit do not have sin? No, because if they say that, they are liars and the truth is not in them. So, rather than present a scripture to contradict another, harmonize them.

The scripture you quoted does not have to do with whether or not people HAVE sin, but whether they continue to ABIDE in sin. One may have sin, and the temptations and struggles that accompany it, but walk free of slavery to it.

That's the challenge, but also the blessing isn't it, when scripture harmonizes...when we get a clearer glimpse.

Isn't there a bit of mystery with this too?  I've been toying with it in my mind for some time, not quite sure about it yet.  Paul talked about constantly missing the mark.  Yet he said it was no longer him doing it, but the law of sin and death that dwelled in his flesh ("But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me".  Romans 7:20)  'Splain that, Lucy  .  Free/not condemned in Christ/becoming new creature, then the sin of the flesh no longer laid to his account? 

[Seth]

HI Jabcat, this is probably a conversation for another time, but I think Romans 7 is often misunderstood. Traditionally people think that Paul's use of "I" means himself in the present time. However, there is a literary device in the Greek known as Gnomic Present, which we use today still. It is when someone refers to themselves as "I" when speaking universally. In the case of Romans 7, Paul's present tense was used to speak as the universal Isrealite when they struggled under the Law. This is why in Romans 8, Paul says "BUT NOW" compared to then. That is why, in Romans 7, Paul says "When we were under the law, the motions of sin worked in us." We are not under the law anymore, but set free.

We do struggle with the flesh, but the struggle that Paul is describing has nothing to do with our struggle in Grace (which chastises us to live godly lives). The struggle he is describing was how sin grew more and more under the law, until we felt condemned. But now there is no further condemnation for them who walk according to the Spirit.

Again, it's probably a conversation for another time.

[Molly]

This whole thing is a process.  I think that maybe Paul did not want to discourage us, so he is showing us the process.  Thus, what looks like it might contradict does not, it's just a different step in the process.  That's why Paul says he will show himself as certain things to certain people.   He shows himself a Jew to the Jews.  Well, he was a Jew in the process but now he considers that and all his claim to self-righteousness so much dung.  So, he's not deceiving others, he is giving them a place to step on the ladder which they might not otherwise do if they felt condemned or rejected while still tender shoots.

Likewise, we start out with the law which condemns and end up with grace which makes us perfect.

 7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

 8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

--Heb 8






Just because we start out with a sin nature doesn't mean that is the goal, or that will be with us forever.  We just have to stay on the right path.


1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

--Gal 3

[jabcat]

If Paul's not really talking about himself, that's one thing.  I'd want some really good proof that's not the case, never heard that before.

Also, it sure doesn't sound like he's saying he's perfect or will be made perfect in this life.  Sounds to me like he's looking forward to the resurrection, while continuing to struggle in this life.  Though He sees God's grace as being "sufficient", therefor, no condemnation.


14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who WILL set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

[Seth]

I'll open a topic about it and post my thoughts 

A short note. What Paul is talking about is how sin uses the Law to deceive us and grow exceedingly sinful. That is not our experience under Grace. Grace kills sin. Being under the Law grows sin. Romans 7 cuts off Paul mid-thought. Continuing to Romans 8:

So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. BUT NOW there is no condemnation (meaning "judgment" as described in Romans 7 when under the Law) for those who walk by the Spirit and are no longer in the flesh since the Spirit of God is in them.

Romans 7 traces the pathway of them who are caused to be dead in sin by the Law, to Romans 8 which shows the end of that condemnation when the Law leads to Grace in Christ. Understanding what Paul intends to say with Romans 7, and how it leads to Romans 8 REALLY harmonizes the scripture.

Romans 8 shows that we no longer serve the law sin with the flesh because Christ has set us free from that former conflict. Here is some info in the mean time: http://www.lectionarystudies.com/studyn/sunday14aaen.html

[Molly]

Also, it sure doesn't sound like he's saying he's perfect or will be made perfect in this life.  Sounds to me like he's looking forward to the resurrection, while continuing to struggle in this life.  Though He sees God's grace as being "sufficient", therefor, no condemnation.

I don't think he is outright telling us everything he knows of the 'mysteries of God'--which by definition is only open to the initiates--or everything he is.  Paul does not want to discourage us or have us worshipping him by mistake.


2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. 5I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.

--1 Cor 12




As to being perfect, well--who are these guys?

22But ye are come ...

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[Seth]

"Perfect" means "mature." So those guys were made mature, yet still seeing through a dark glass.