Author Topic: I want your input on the "natural body."  (Read 5316 times)

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martincisneros

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2009, 02:26:17 AM »


I am disecting that post, Martin. 
Have written some stuff......and seen some "new" stuff
but I am too tired tonight to fool with this computer any more
Downloaded Internet Explorer 8 and had to undo it.
I will try to post tomorrow.  Here we all be. :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere:
So, IE8 is basically still total GARBAGE, eh?  Made the mistake of downloading it last September or so, and wound up downloading firefox simply 'cause I wasn't sure if I dumped IE8 if it would revert to IE7.  Though it was a good safety precaution for the once in a millenium computer glitch, when I dumped IE8 the computer defaulted to the IE7 it had already downloaded.  Was playing with the idea of downloading it, thinking that surely enough time had passed since I did like a couple of features though found it very incompatible with the websites I'd visit, and my computer tried to do an auto-install on that, but it introduced itself as one of the updates and gave me the option of saying "OOO hell no!!" and I've wondered ever since that if they tried to push it down my throat if it was worth anything, but knew the problems I got into last year and was just waiting on someone to tell me if it was worth upgrading to it yet.  Kinda late in the year for it to still not be a good download, so it might not be worth trying again until about January/February '10

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2009, 02:52:01 AM »
Hi Martin  :hithere:

I just saw on your site that you are getting married. Congradulations!

Anyway, I was just wondering about your post which intrigued me regarding the Word of Faith application to 1 Cor 4. When you say that Paul never walked a day of persecution in his life, are you saying that he never was persecuted, or that because of his faith walk, the persecution did not become a burden? 

martincisneros

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2009, 03:42:49 AM »
When you say that Paul never walked a day of persecution in his life, are you saying that he never was persecuted, or that because of his faith walk, the persecution did not become a burden?
Thanks for the congrads!  Actually, sorta saying both 'cause the Pharisees did still get up in Jesus' face, although He was able to walk off any time He pleased and the love that was motivating the shield of faith in His life kept Him protected.  Wanting to say more about Ephesians 6, but can't really right now.  "Listening" right now for Him... faith works by love, so the shield of faith that quenches all of the firey darts of the wicked one is the pursuit of God's love through meditation in the Scriptures on it, surrounding yourself with the knowledge of God Himself loving you, even if that means saying it over and over and over again your last half hour before falling asleep "God loves me" until it REALLY sinks in with the water works and everything else happening, and by pursuing peace with all men with your fasting and praying that's motivated out of love rather than the evangelical thing of trying to invoke carnal destructions. 

He said that what he was saying about himself and Apollos was FIGURATIVE, and I'd previously limited that to 1Corinthians 10 where he was talking about Israel's journey through the wilderness, etc., but he wasn't saying he interpreted Scripture figuratively, but that he interpreted himself figuratively, though obviously carefully and prayerfully in conveying the truth of the Gospel, encouraging them to imitate him as he imitated Christ -- Who, as you know, taught quite a few parables.  I hadn't paid enough attention all of my life to the fact that he was saying that what he'd say about himself was figurative.  Speaking as a fool, compelled by them, as he said, and hence all of the charges left and right by most of the Body of Christ at the time of him being a false Apostle and THE liar.  Too many overlapping points between his epistles and the epistles of the other Apostles and the Gospels for it to have been accusations over doctrine, so it had to be his hyperbolic thing about always wrestling according to the power with which God so supernaturally was working into him as he spoke in tongues more than them all. 

Sorta like some folks these days that'll spend a year somewhere preaching and mention a time or two when they narrowly made rent and will talk about having wrestled with God's angel a few nights over that one, like Jacob.  But, the modern expressions of that usually aren't understood to dogmatically be literal.  The understood intent is that God let 'em sweat it to the last possible second as they stood firm on what He'd told them by His Written Word and Spirit about being there and taking care of every need while they were there.  To read his epistles without being aware of that, and this sounds like the most beaten to death Apostle that's ever walked the face of the earth, to where even Clement of Rome made the mistake in the latter part of the 1st century in thinking that Paul meant he'd literally been imprisoned 7 times. 

But this man was always giggling too much in the spirit for God not to be doing a whole lot better by him than those that have read that throught he eyes of tradition to likewise reconcile with that.  He was as bad as me about grinning from ear to ear. :Sparkletooth:  You draw upon the helmet of salvation by maintaining the oil of joy.  Too many passages to get into with that on how to reign with Him here, but Isaiah 12:2 says you draw from salvation/deliverance with joy, Song of Solomon 3:11 says it's on the day of your gladness of heart that you receive your crown (i.e. helmet of salvation) with which you rule in God's wisdom.  Jerry Savelle's got a book called "If Satan Can't Steal Your Joy, He Can't Keep Your Goods" on this very theme.  St. Paul gloried in tribulations, like anyone does that's believing God 'cause I know I'm going to win this one, so take your best shot, devil, and when the dust settles, God and I will still be standing and I'll have another testimony to tell of God's goodness and integrity to His Written Word and preach it all over the world from the top of the world to the bottom of the world and all of the way around it, until there's nowhere for you to hide! 

Satan: IT IS WRITTEN, THOU SHALT NOT TEMPT THE LORD THY GOD!! (Psalm 82, Psalm 136:2, John 8:31-32, John 10:35, Ephesians 5:1, Colossians 3:17)

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2009, 04:38:27 AM »
Quote
St. Paul gloried in tribulations, like anyone does that's believing God 'cause I know I'm going to win this one, so take your best shot, devil

Amen to that. I think to me the most revealing and dramatic evidence of an old man dead and a new man resurrected is when he can giggle when he should be crying, or when he says he has everything, but the world looks at him and says he has nothing. I believe Paul suffered persecutions, but not that the suffering was able to rebuild the house he had torn down: his sinful nature which seeks vengeance and does not want to glorify God in the presence of adversity.

I was checking out the verse you mentioned regarding the figurative aspect of 1 Cor 4:6 and found some interesting stuff. Here is what I see in the verse:

1 Corinthians 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.


The phrase "I have in a figure transferred" is from the Greek metaschematizo, which means to "transfigure" or "transform." We see that the word "figure" and "form" in each of the English alternates. I believe, rather than the word signifying a metephoric association (like a type or shadow) the word is signifying a kind of transformation. Here is another usage I thought was interesting:

Php 3:21
(Christ) who will transform (metaschematizo) the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


This sense of transformation is connected to the "these things" that Paul was talking about:

1 Corinthians 4
3 it doesn't matter to me if I am judged by you or even by a court of law. In fact, I don't judge myself.
4 I don't know of anything against me, but that doesn't prove that I am right. The Lord is my judge.
5 So don't judge anyone until the Lord returns. He will show what is hidden in the dark and what is in everyone's heart. Then God will be the one who praises each of us.


The part about not judging eachother, and considering the Lord to be the only judge who will expose the motives of men's hearts is the "these things" that Paul and Apollos transforms into themselves. In other words, the advice, to not judge men's motives and to let God be the judge, are words that Paul and Apollos have made themselves to be in the form of. They embody those commandments so that the younger in the church can see what those commands look like in action.

I would not deny that Paul's persecutions were figurative. In fact I think the Bible shows that Christ's literal sufferings were figurative of our death and resurrections to new lives (the killing away of the flesh). It would not however, if it were figurative mean that Christ did not actually suffer physically on the Cross.

However, it looks to me that what the verse is saying in 1 Cor 4:6 is that Paul is taking on the form of the words in his walk so that others could learn from his example.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2009, 06:15:15 AM »
Ditto to Card.
Awesome Martin.
May I add,
That our Lord Jesus Christ, when asked if this cup may pass him by;
was He not referring to His flesh, and not the cross.

Offline Molly

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2009, 10:25:07 AM »
Ok, I'm trying to make some sense out of what Martin and others are saying.  Not quite there, yet.

In 1 Cor 3, Paul makes a distinction between himself and the believers he is writing to, calling himself a 'master builder,' in the greek, 'architektōn.'   This is a really bold assertion.  He says he lays the foundation and someone else builds on it--that same foundation the one already having been laid by Christ. 

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

--1Cor 3


For this reason, he calls himself (and the other apostles), "God's fellow workers,"  co-laborers with God, and, this, really puts him on the same level as Christ, it seems,   The believers for whom he is laying the foundation, he calls 'God's husbandry, ' harkening back to the garden of Eden, and "God's building," looking forward to the holy city of Revelation.

9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
--1 Cor 3


So, in this chapter, we learn that for those who have not yet attained the level of Paul, there are differences.

Paul starts chapter 4 by emphasizing that even though he is a servant [of Christ], he has been entrusted with the mysteries of God--mustērion  theos.   And, it is these mysteries which I think Martin is alluding to when he talks about Paul "transfiguring' himself to present suffering for the sakes of others,  when he is not really suffering at all.  Well, this is where I get lost.

6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

--1 Cor 4

[these things] " I have in a figure transferred" [to myself]

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).


That word, metaschematizo, really means to transform yourself with a disguise, as an actor might do before he walks on stage.  In other words, he is purposely presenting himself as something he is not, so that he might benefit others.  This kind of has my head spinning.


"...we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. "

... for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

--1 Cor 4


How does Paul's disguise, and playacting, if that is what it is, benefit others?

martincisneros

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2009, 12:15:32 PM »
Molly,

There's the dual sense in which it would benefit both himself and his hearers in curtailing their sin and presumption, and if I may use the superhero analogy with Superman being Clark Kent: the subterfuge affords him an actual life, or the closest thing to one, protects his loved ones from enemies, and is a limitation upon the sins of his enemies with not letting them get that close of a shot.  Though the way the stories always seem to play out, it's always Lois Lane on the chopping block anyway, to where it's sorta a delicate balance on benefits verses self protectiveness that degenerates moral excellence.

It would give the Churches a pattern when St. Paul would be bold about that, so they could imitate it, give the enemies of the faith a living example of what this is supposed to look like, keep the memory of Jesus Christ alive in their minds among those who'd had the privelege Peter talks about with being an eyewitness of His Majesty, restrain the flesh of others and of himself and let others know what to always expect out of him, it would give the anointing the most to work with through him in demonstrations of power so that burdens would be loosed, yokes would be destroyed, and burdens would totally be removed, whether physical with health, financial issues, and famine, or present dangers of living in a world with proportionately more political ACTIVISTS than we've got today that could cut your throat on a whim of bad information.

Contrary to what some wolves in sheep clothing would say that have crept into UR circles with a spirit of AntiChrist in continually conveying the idea without qualification, limitation, and transformation that supposedly this message of UR is supposed to set you free to be the real you -- NO!! a thousand times NO!! -- this message is for setting you free so that by the Blood of Jesus, you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Colossians 3:17, et. al.).  There is a stage at which it's knocking the foolish pretenses out from under you and being the ministry of condemnation to you that it should have been all along so that once the flesh was condemned and destroyed, God in His Season Who chose you from your mother's womb and set you apart can finally reveal Jesus Christ in you as it says in Galatians 1.

Offline Redlettervoice

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2009, 12:42:07 PM »

I'm with you, Molly.  My head is spinning too, but so help me God,
I made a statement that is so true when I said "we" have the mind
of Christ.  "WE"........the body is speaking to one another here in
this thread, I hear HIM in all .......I was so excited about this thread
that I wore myself out making notes of all kinds yesterday when I
could.  And the beauty of the ONE thru the "all" is sticking out to me
more and more.  I believe that God is allowing the "leaves" of the
tree, the "words of healing" ........to be "discerned" .......if God did
not open our ears, we would never "hear" nothing!  It is God that
doth all things well.  It is God!  It is God!  It is never "never" we who
can do it!  It is by His GRACE! It is a Gift!  His Son is a Gift!  And
there "are" those that are "figuratively" speaking for HIM.  There
is a verse coming to my mind now about the "sanctified" ones. And
those that He "sanctified" are one.For it became HIM for whom are
all things by whom are all things, in bringing "many" Sons to make
the Captain of their salvation PERFECT thru sufferings.  So "both" He
that s
sanctified and "they who ARE sanctified" are all of one...for which
cause HE is not ashamed to call them brethren.
I awoke at 3 am again and could
not "wait" to start typing.  It is God's way of speaking "to me"
sometimes "thru me" .......as well as others, I am getting it figured
out "while" I am typing.  He is certainly not just speaking to others
but first of all to me.  For us, I "hear" ......where the carcase is,
there will"I" be.  Where the "sanctified" ones are.  Where those that
truly belong to ME, that search for ME with "all" their heart, and
figuratively transfer ME to themselves, tho they appear as fools
to others, they make themselves fools that they may be wise! 
There is a "carcase" where this bunch gathers, and unto HIM shall
the "gathering" of the "people" be! Selah. 

For it is HE who is absent in the flesh, but present in the Spirit
beholding "our" order which is HIS ORDER for we are the work
of HIS Hands........and He "joys" over us with LOVE!!! And God
is a God of "order" .......He doesn't skip a step that we as
individuals "need."  He will make each person "understand" ......
if we have NOT yet understood, we will.  For there is NO Man
that "follows HIM" and walks in darkness. He lights our lights
that we may figuratively be a City set on a hill and so that "all"
that are in the "house" may see HIM. 

Thank you, Martin for speaking on that word "Figuratively."
It was headbanging sure nuff to get what  you were saying
but when I heard it from the Spirit, brother I got it!  Of course,
He does not want us to think of puny man, that is exactly
what Paul was speaking of there, that we should not think
of "man" more than we should. So He has transferred Himself
into man for HIS Glory, "and" He has shown man his nothingness
by doing so.  All glory to the Lord!  And may the Son of God be
praised!!!

God's building a PERFECT LOVE City, a realm where there is NO MORE judging after the flesh.  Rather, there is a "discerning" of the BODY.
When we judge after the flesh, we are really pronoucing judgement
on ourselves! So judge nothing "before" the "time" and the "time"
is when the LORD comes!  Now the Lord comes, IN YOU, when He
shows like He did Paul re the fornicator, but we must "must" know
that the Judgement of the Son is "always" unto LIFE!  It brings forth
fruit unto LIFE! It does not KILL and then leave dead........It kills
and MAKES ALIVE!  It raises to damnation and behold the Lamb
who "takes away" the sins of the world. 

You should "read" all the rambling I did yesterday and "almost" posted
it "before I GOT it" ..........that which was lacking in my understanding
on this, God supplied.  And I am confident my understanding may not
sound exactly like yours, but God knows just "how" to click it for each
one of us! 

Jesus said "if I honor myself" my honor is nothing!  It takes the Lord
to HONOR ME!! Figuratively think on that one!  Think of Paul when he
said, "it is nothing to me if YOU judge me" but "judge nothing til the
Lord comes."  The Spirit doth the Works of the Spirit, and the Spirit
grows leaves on the TREE "HE" is!  And He giveth LIFE to HIS BODY!

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow F44 more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism F45 in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Now for a moment, transfer "me" "figuratively"  into that which is in need, and see God meet that need thru the leaves of His Body like
right here in this thread, with an abundant word on my understanding
which lacked.  See me up there in that scripture? I do. And I see the
"we" who God comes "thru" to give me ABUNDANTLY thru the leaves
of His Body, which is "figuratively" lying as dead in street, and someone
said: But with what "body" do they come? ha They come with HIS OWN
BODY.  YOU! 

Where does this WORK?  It works where the carcase is! Hey Cardinal!
Do you hear that?  The "eagles" gather there.

To Seth, to Beloved Servant, To only truth, Nathan, Molly, Cardinal
and Martin....RoseyRose, and Firewalker, went back over this thread
and saw that you are here too.....and myself............bless you from the realm of
the Spirit that I have heard thru you and do acknowledge.  That He
transfers Himself thru us figuratively.  I can't quit saying "figuratively."
ha
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 07:39:28 PM by Redlettervoice »

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2009, 06:39:54 PM »
Ok, I'm trying to make some sense out of what Martin and others are saying.  Not quite there, yet.

In 1 Cor 3, Paul makes a distinction between himself and the believers he is writing to, calling himself a 'master builder,' in the greek, 'architektōn.'   This is a really bold assertion.  He says he lays the foundation and someone else builds on it--that same foundation the one already having been laid by Christ. 

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

--1Cor 3


For this reason, he calls himself (and the other apostles), "God's fellow workers,"  co-laborers with God, and, this, really puts him on the same level as Christ, it seems,   The believers for whom he is laying the foundation, he calls 'God's husbandry, ' harkening back to the garden of Eden, and "God's building," looking forward to the holy city of Revelation.

9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
--1 Cor 3


So, in this chapter, we learn that for those who have not yet attained the level of Paul, there are differences.

Paul starts chapter 4 by emphasizing that even though he is a servant [of Christ], he has been entrusted with the mysteries of God--mustērion  theos.   And, it is these mysteries which I think Martin is alluding to when he talks about Paul "transfiguring' himself to present suffering for the sakes of others,  when he is not really suffering at all.  Well, this is where I get lost.

6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

--1 Cor 4

[these things] " I have in a figure transferred" [to myself]

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).


That word, metaschematizo, really means to transform yourself with a disguise, as an actor might do before he walks on stage.  In other words, he is purposely presenting himself as something he is not, so that he might benefit others.  This kind of has my head spinning.


"...we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. "

... for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

--1 Cor 4


How does Paul's disguise, and playacting, if that is what it is, benefit others?

Molly, Paul does not say that he transfigures his suffering. The beginning of 1 Corinthians 4 has nothing to do with suffering. He opens the chapter by talking about not judging eachother's motives for God is the other judge, so we shouldn't even judge ourselves because He knows better than we do.

Then he says THESE THINGS (ie the things that he just was talking about).... I have transfigured to myself so that the church can learn from an example. It's not playacting. The word metaschēmatizō can be used to mean a disguise but the word just means to "transfer a form." Transfering a form onto yourself can take TWO meanings: 1) fakery, like Satan transforming (metaschēmatizō) himself into an angel of light (in which case it is a disguise). 2) God "transforming (metaschēmatizō) the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power." That is why the definition says to transform OR disguise. When Paul takes the words regarding his refusal to judge men's motives, he is not disguising himself as something he is not. He is taking on the very form, the embodiment of those words onto himself in the same real way that the body of our humble state will be transformed to the conformity of His glorious body.

If the form of the words is transfered to one's self disingenuously, then it is a disguise. If the form of the words is transferred to one's self genuinely, then it is real.

He is saying that Paul and Apollos are taking on the form of the words. They are being the very embodiment of the words so that the church can learn. THEN, he moves on from that point to talk about his suffering. Paul was not faking, or playacting, his suffering. It was very real. When Paul and Apollos transfigured the "do not judge" words to themselves, it means they literally abided by those words. They didn't just playact non-judgment.

What are we to say, that Paul playacted suffering, so that others would either suffer genuinely when he did not? Or that Paul playacted his suffering, so that others would playact, and the whole world would be given the impression that they suffered for the Gospel when they didn't?

 :wacko2:



« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 07:43:28 PM by Seth »

Offline Molly

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2009, 08:48:19 PM »
Quote from: Seth
What are we to say, that Paul playacted suffering, so that others would either suffer genuinely when he did not? Or that Paul playacted his suffering, so that others would playact, and the whole world would be given the impression that they suffered for the Gospel when they didn't?

I know.  Amazing, isn't it?



9 It seems to me that God has put us apostles on display at the end of a parade. We are like men sentenced to die in front of a crowd. We have been made a show for the whole creation to see. Angels and people are staring at us.

--1 Cor 4 ['dick and jane' bible]


9For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

--1 Cor 4 [King James Bible]



[We have been made] "a show"

[for we are made] "a spectacle"

G2302
θέατρον
theatron
theh'-at-ron
From G2300; a place for public show ("theatre"), that is, general audience room; by implication a show itself (figuratively): - spectacle, theatre.


God is so wonderful, isn't he?



« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 09:05:13 PM by Molly »

Offline jabcat

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2009, 09:02:47 PM »

Molly, Paul does not say that he transfigures his suffering. The beginning of 1 Corinthians 4 has nothing to do with suffering. He opens the chapter by talking about not judging eachother's motives for God is the other judge, so we shouldn't even judge ourselves because He knows better than we do.

Then he says THESE THINGS (ie the things that he just was talking about).... I have transfigured to myself so that the church can learn from an example. It's not playacting. The word metaschēmatizō can be used to mean a disguise but the word just means to "transfer a form." Transfering a form onto yourself can take TWO meanings: 1) fakery, like Satan transforming (metaschēmatizō) himself into an angel of light (in which case it is a disguise). 2) God "transforming (metaschēmatizō) the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power." That is why the definition says to transform OR disguise. When Paul takes the words regarding his refusal to judge men's motives, he is not disguising himself as something he is not. He is taking on the very form, the embodiment of those words onto himself in the same real way that the body of our humble state will be transformed to the conformity of His glorious body.

If the form of the words is transfered to one's self disingenuously, then it is a disguise. If the form of the words is transferred to one's self genuinely, then it is real.

He is saying that Paul and Apollos are taking on the form of the words. They are being the very embodiment of the words so that the church can learn. THEN, he moves on from that point to talk about his suffering. Paul was not faking, or playacting, his suffering. It was very real. When Paul and Apollos transfigured the "do not judge" words to themselves, it means they literally abided by those words. They didn't just playact non-judgment.

 :goodpost:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2009, 09:07:21 PM »
Yes, it was Paul's great honor, that his sufferings were made a show for the world, just like Christ.

Rom 8
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Cor 1:6
3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Acts 9
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man (Paul), how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


Offline Molly

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2009, 09:13:44 PM »
Don't mistake the word for the transfiguration of Christ on the mountain with the word Paul uses for transfigure.

Christ's transfiguration is the real thing--

G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.


Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.




This is a different word from the one that Paul is using--


6And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes...

--1 Cor 4

G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self)

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2009, 09:14:41 PM »
Here is one I have always had affection for:

Acts 5
40 and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name.
42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.


There is the suffering of the apostles made theater for our sakes.

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2009, 09:16:14 PM »
To transfigure OR disguise.

Offline Molly

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2009, 09:42:52 PM »
To transfigure OR disguise.

Yes, I can transform myself by putting on a wig and a mustache and a hat and strange clothes, but that is not me--that is me playacting, transforming myself--metaschematizo--changing for the purpose of 'schema'--scheme--, we have the same word in English.

You have to understand my jaw dropped when Martin said what he said--I am just getting used to this myself.

It's not the first time Paul has accused himself of playacting--


 19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.


--1 Cor 9



But what is so amazing about this revelation is the possibility that he was not suffering in the body but had already attained the resurrection.

Here is another clue from the scriptures you quoted--


6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

--2Cor 1


It is so easy for us to identify with the suffering piece of that scripture that we overlook the consolation and salvation part.



"salvation"


G4991
σωτηρία
sōtēria
so-tay-ree'-ah
Feminine of a derivative of G4990 as (properly abstract) noun; rescue or safety (physically or morally): - deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.





Offline jabcat

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2009, 09:46:19 PM »
To transfigure OR disguise.

I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent;  Transfigure. 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:54:52 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2009, 09:52:23 PM »
To transfigure OR disguise.

I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent.  Transfigure.

Exactly. And the example is applied directly to what he was talking about, which was not suffering. He transfigured the words about non-judgment to himself. If anything, if the word "disguise" was intended, the words were disguised as Paul and Apollos, in that the words were embodied in them both in the flesh. It's like "the word made flesh." Molly, Paul suffered in the body.

The word schema means "figure." And "meta" means transfer. We derive the word "scheme" from "schema" but that does not mean the derived word is the same meaning as the root word. Words change over time. Paul and Appollos TRANS-FIGURED the words to THEMSELVES. The words (regarding non-judgment) were transferred to be the figure of the apostles so that they would be exemplified.

None of this can be taken to mean that Paul did not truly suffer for the Gospel. Good grief you guys.



« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 10:00:41 PM by Seth »

Offline Molly

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2009, 09:54:34 PM »
To transfigure OR disguise.

I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent.  Transfigure.

Exactly. And the example is applied directly to what he was talking about, which was not suffering. Molly, Paul suffered in the body.


Yes, to you, he did, and to others, he didn't.  You see?


I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

--1Cor9


Offline jabcat

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2009, 09:58:02 PM »
To transfigure OR disguise.

I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent.  Transfigure.

Exactly. And the example is applied directly to what he was talking about, which was not suffering. Molly, Paul suffered in the body.

I also see that he used his actual, physical sufferings in the same manner (he was beheaded!).  I.e., "count it all joy when you fall into diverse temptations", "take up your cross and follow me [Jesus]"....though the life of a believer is full of trials and fire, yet His yoke is easy and His burden light, because "I send the Comforter...I will never leave you nor forsake you...if God be for us who can be against us...I will be with you always"...
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 02:56:21 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2009, 10:00:44 PM »
1 Peter 1:6-7: "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which perishes, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2009, 10:02:29 PM »
To transfigure OR disguise.

I see it as "an example", something for us to behold, distinctly apparent.  Transfigure.

Exactly. And the example is applied directly to what he was talking about, which was not suffering. Molly, Paul suffered in the body.


Yes, to you, he did, and to others, he didn't.  You see?


I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

--1Cor9



No I don't see. What I see is that he suffered like he said he did.

Offline Molly

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2009, 10:04:27 PM »
1 Peter 1:6-7: "In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which perishes, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Yes, but what is that 'little while'?  Our 80 year lifespan?  Or two weeks out of that lifespan?  Or what?

...may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ


This is the end result of our 'little while' of suffering.  Can we achieve this is our lifetime?  And, once achieved, then what?  Do we still suffer?

Offline Seth

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2009, 10:07:34 PM »
We achieve it on the earth. For a little while we suffer for the gospel and then Christ redeems the purchased possession. The suffering that we endure reveals the love of Christ in that while we suffer, we do not retaliate. And the trials of our faith produce patience. It's all very simple.

Offline Molly

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Re: I want your input on the "natural body."
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2009, 10:12:20 PM »
We achieve it on the earth. For a little while we suffer for the gospel and then Christ redeems the purchased possession. The suffering that we endure reveals the love of Christ in that while we suffer, we do not retaliate. And the trials of our faith produce patience. It's all very simple.

But is there a before and after to this process?  A metamorphosis, as it were?

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

--1 Cor 15


Can that happen in one's lifetime?