I left religion and now I am lost...

[Loveroftruth]

When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,
Want to put that in friendly user terms?
Can WE put self to death or is it a God thing?

I hear that so much, it sounds nice, yet when one has a crises of faith becuase God is tearing down all the stuff you thought was truth how does one apply what you say above? i.e. when your friend comes to you and is going through a crises of faith becuase stuff he believed as true ends up being shown as false, and he comes to the place where his whole faith is shaken.......... what advice do you give him? To deny his self? And what does that look like?



Blessings 

[Gizmo]

When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters

This needs some clarification.  Under the law we needed to deny ourselves, since human thought and action was condemned by the law.  But after Jesus fulfilled and erased the handwriting against us, we need not deny ourselves since we are all accepted in the beloved.  After the cross we only need to guard against the compulsion to relate to God based on our thoughts or actions...aka the flesh.  Trust that Jesus took care of it all and that God truly without conditions loves and accepts you and all mankind because of Jesus.

Best wishes,
Giz

[jabcat]

I was just thinking about how I've been battling with how to 'express' my faith. That is, some people wear Jesus T-Shirts, have Jesus bumper stickers, go to church regularly, hang out with christian friends, go on christian 'encounters', etc. You can do all those things and not know anything about God, yet you will be considered a 'christian.'

I myself have struggled because I NEVER felt like I fit in with these christian circles and activities. I never fit in in christian church groups. I NEVER felt right about wearing religion on my sleeve. In face, I've pretty much figured out that there is no such thing as a true religious expression. All things external are just fluff, and idolatry.

The only real religious expression is this: to have love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kindness, self-control, gentleness, and faithfulness. These things only come from walking with God, having him be the source of your life.The manifestation of these things is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give to the poor, defend the cause of the orphan, the fatherless, and the widows. There is NO other pure and undefiled religion in the sight of God.

Great post, thanks!

[jiggyfly]

When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters

This needs some clarification.  Under the law we needed to deny ourselves, since human thought and action was condemned by the law.  But after Jesus fulfilled and erased the handwriting against us, we need not deny ourselves since we are all accepted in the beloved.  After the cross we only need to guard against the compulsion to relate to God based on our thoughts or actions...aka the flesh.  Trust that Jesus took care of it all and that God truly without conditions loves and accepts you and all mankind because of Jesus.

Best wishes,
Giz

You can not be a disciple of Christ without denying self, this is very clear in the scriptures.

[Loveroftruth]

When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters

This needs some clarification.  Under the law we needed to deny ourselves, since human thought and action was condemned by the law.  But after Jesus fulfilled and erased the handwriting against us, we need not deny ourselves since we are all accepted in the beloved.  After the cross we only need to guard against the compulsion to relate to God based on our thoughts or actions...aka the flesh.  Trust that Jesus took care of it all and that God truly without conditions loves and accepts you and all mankind because of Jesus.

Best wishes,
Giz

You can not be a disciple of Christ without denying self, this is very clear in the scriptures.

Jiggyfly,
Again I ask you -- What does deny yourself look like?
Is it something YOU do or God does?

[jiggyfly]

When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh,
Want to put that in friendly user terms?
Can WE put self to death or is it a God thing?

I hear that so much, it sounds nice, yet when one has a crises of faith becuase God is tearing down all the stuff you thought was truth how does one apply what you say above? i.e. when your friend comes to you and is going through a crises of faith becuase stuff he believed as true ends up being shown as false, and he comes to the place where his whole faith is shaken.......... what advice do you give him? To deny his self? And what does that look like?



Blessings 

Mark 8:34
 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Many of us  while seeking Christ followed religion with the misunderstanding that it is Christ or at least the path that leads to Him.

[Loveroftruth]

What does it look like to deny oneself?'
How does it look like in your life 

[Mickiel]

When self is denied and knowing Jesus is all that really matters

This needs some clarification.  Under the law we needed to deny ourselves, since human thought and action was condemned by the law.  But after Jesus fulfilled and erased the handwriting against us, we need not deny ourselves since we are all accepted in the beloved.  After the cross we only need to guard against the compulsion to relate to God based on our thoughts or actions...aka the flesh.  Trust that Jesus took care of it all and that God truly without conditions loves and accepts you and all mankind because of Jesus.

Best wishes,
Giz

Well I have to say that I disagree with this, denying oneself is an important aspect of a believers life. The oppisite of denying oneself is to then endulge the self, which I think is obviously not a Spirit led direction. When sin becomes habitual it is an endulging of the self. If the Spirit of God is looking to influence you, then its influence will be to lead you away from sin being habitual and it then works on your intent, your hearts desires. When the Spirits influence is strong, that means a strong desire to not sin will be present within you, when you then, inspite of this influence, sin anyway, then you are actually fighting the Spirit, and because the habit of sin is strong within you, you sin anyway. When you sin anyway, then you indulge the self, when you fight it and do not sin, you deny the self.

Self denial then is the first step in Overcomming sin. God has already taken his step by leading your desire not to sin, your next step is to follow his lead. Now I understand that many believe that God has taken our steps out of this process and they feel as if God does everything for you. He removes the desire to sin and he orders your steps for you, and walks for you, and removes the struggle to walk away from sin, thus you automactically will not sin again. I think that is a very high standard to place on a person who is struggling actively experiencing their desire to sin. Then you tell them that desire is automactically erased, that they are imagineing the struggle, or the struggle is useless, Christ has done it all for you.

So this belief that Christ has done it all, looks to super impose the struggle with sin, and treat it as if it is no longer a reality. A very heavy burden to lay on a person, it has handicapped many on one end, and created believers who sin and ignore it on the other.

Peace.

[sparrow]

Well, ever since finding out that Hell is not eternal, I have lost some direction in my life.  Now, I am not saying that is a bad thing, but it is a very uncomfortable feeling.  I don't feel the need to go to church. I still pray, talk to God, focus on what is right... But I don't 'strive' anymore.  Before I tried as hard as a could because I was trying to escape Hell, but now that Hell does not exist, the drive for Heaven just doesn't seem quite as strong.

Hi Gabe, Maybe you just need to rest awhile...  You think that because you were DOING something before...that now you still have to DO something. You don't. Give yourself some time to rest. It's like going on vacation, and that first day of vacation you're not used to it and you're all antsy because you feel like you need to be DOING something! Just rest for now, my friend.
It sounds like you were dwelling in "fear" all of this time and it takes awhile to recover from that.
Fear is exhausting.
You NEED rest
You know it.
and HE knows it:
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
he restores my soul.

The rest will come later...
Maybe you will stop going to church altogether.
Or maybe you will find a different REASON to go to church..
Who knows. But you'll figure that out later on...

 

I hear people say 'to live is Christ' but that doesn't make any sense to me.  Yeah, I can pretend what it means like I did before, but the reality is - what does it really mean? Gramatically, it doesn't make any sense and I am sure I could be like everyone else are just make up what it means to me.  But I can't do that, not in good faith.

Hmmm. "To live is Christ". It makes sense and it doesn't make sense. I think we all try to squish our thoughts and beliefs into a little easy box and slap a label on it, as if our thoughts and beliefs could be condensed into one little phrase. Whatever. It sounds like a bumper sticker to me. and other folks would look at it saying "huh?!" I don't like mysterious stuff. Just come out and say what you mean and mean what you say. ok, sorry... I seem to have gone off on a bit of a tangent. Watch.... I guarantee... That in one of my next posts, I'm going to say to someone "TO LIVE IS CHRIST!" 

I know others have been in this position... Any advice? Being in a religion solves this problem because you don't have to think, you simply have to listen to your pastor tell you what to do. But, I don't think I would trade emotional stability for the lies of religion. Sometimes I wish I could have taken the 'blue' pill (shamless MATRIX reference). And the problem I am really facing isn't finding out what is WRONG.  I already know that Traditional Christianity is WRONG on MANY things.  But so is Islam, and Budhism... So finding the wrong is not the problem, it is finding the truth and getting a mystical 'Jesus is the Truth' statement doesn't solve the problem, unfortunately...

Well, I was one who DIDN'T pursue religion because I thought that what the pastors were telling people was WRONG! So basically, you're in your religion relying on other people to tell you stuff. And I was OUTSIDE of religion relying on other people to tell me stuff. know what I mean? So I was pretty much in the same boat as you, just a slightly different perspective. So I understand what you mean.

I think after you give yourself a little time to just rest and not worry so much about everything, you will find yourself renewed and energized. Because you will have moved further away from fear. But y'know, Gabe... I kinda think you will find that the fear you may find yourself in a little later down the road will PUSH you to bringing more love into your life and into your heart. The reason I say this is because once I started believing in UR, a alot of fear left my heart. But then I found that later on, more fear started to kinda pile back in... fear of other people's beliefs/religions... Fear of "well we can't just have people believing in Buddhism!!!" etc.  Slowly, though... He helps you through it. You can't sit back and let other people do your thinking for you. No more listening to Pastors, no more listening to other people tell you WHAT you should believe. You just gotta start listening to your heart, listening to his subtle words whispering in your ear. Take it easy, take it slow... no need to rush. No need to know all of the answers, or how things are going to fit or not fit. Just take it slow.

Lay down beside those still waters for now...
and just rest.

 ,
sparrow

[Mickiel]

There is a very thin line in endulging the Flesh and endulging the Spirit and actually both can be very wrong things to do. In 2Pet. 2:10 it shows that endulging the flesh is a corrupt thing to do, and this simply means that you go with the flow of sinful desire. But there is a far greater wrong in indulging the Spirit to excuse your flesh. Which means that you sin willfully because you know the Spirit will forgive you, which is quenching the Spirit and is a form of despising its authority over you. Instead of applying dilligence to escape the sin in your life, you rest in your sin because of the confidence in your forgiveness. In 2Pet.1:4, this is discussed. The divine nature includes a desire to escape sin and leads to applying dilligence in your escape, the rest mentality takes away this dilligence because of the saftey net of forgiveness, which in turn pacifys the sin in your life. It thinks like this: why try to escape your sinful desires, don't worry about it, Christ has shed his blood, we are forgiven anyway, no matter how much we sin. Dilligence is then not applied, only faith in forgiveness. Then perseverance is passified and those two qualities, perseverance and dilligence,  willnot increase. So because you are indulging the Spirit, or relying on it to do things for you that it leads you to do for yourself, you are removing two vital points of individual growth that will only lead you to a very restful mentality, because you are subtracting part of the Overcomming process.  Peace.

[sparrow]

Mickiel... doesn't that kind of belong on a different thread? Who is talking about sin here?

You are trying to drag this back into the "you must focus on your SIN!!!!!" debate.
No.. no. no.

If a brother needs a bit of a REST, he needs a bit of a rest.
Don't turn this into "indulging the flesh and SINNING!!!!"
My GOD! He has just escaped this CHURCH mentality.
You want to toss him back in?
You want to stick his ankles back in those shackles?

let him be.
Let the man have his rest.


 

[Mickiel]

Mickiel... doesn't that kind of belong on a different thread? Who is talking about sin here?

You are trying to drag this back into the "you must focus on your SIN!!!!!" debate.
No.. no. no.

If a brother needs a bit of a REST, he needs a bit of a rest.
Don't turn this into "indulging the flesh and SINNING!!!!"
My GOD! He has just escaped this CHURCH mentality.
You want to toss him back in?
You want to stick his ankles back in those shackles?

let him be.
Let the man have his rest.


 

Well I see it different than you do, when someone is loosing Spiritual energy you think they need rest, I think in terms of why the energy is being lost. There is a drain, a development is occuring, most likely a change is comming. In my view a battle is about to be fought, in your view rest is needed. So you seek to silence my view and speak yours, which I think is just a different kind of battle. Peace.

[sparrow]

Well I see it different than you do, when someone is loosing Spiritual energy you think they need rest, I think in terms of why the energy is being lost. There is a drain, a development is occuring, most likely a change is comming. In my view a battle is about to be fought, in your view rest is needed. So you seek to silence my view and speak yours, which I think is just a different kind of battle. Peace.

That's fine. I have no problem with you speaking your views, I am not trying to "silence" your views.
Not everything is a "battle". I guess you see it that way, but I do not.

And yes, I believe that rest is called for.
There is nothing wrong with that.
It is in RESTING where we gain refreshment and become energized.
He does lead us to still waters
He whispers into our ear.
When we quiet ourselves from within.
and He does restore our soul...

[Mickiel]

[quote author=sparrow link

That's fine. I have no problem with you speaking your views, I am not trying to "silence" your views.
Not everything is a "battle". I guess you see it that way, but I do not.

And yes, I believe that rest is called for.
There is nothing wrong with that.
It is in RESTING where we gain refreshment and become energized.
He does lead us to still waters
He whispers into our ear.
When we quiet ourselves from within.
and He does restore our soul...
[/quote]


Well I don't see that rest is called for when God snatches someone out of the Fire, now the most exciting period in their Lives is about to occur. When I am stressed out I cannot rest properly, because its time to deal with the stress, not lay down on it until it goes away. You must forgive me for not adhereing to your views, but I will never seek to silence them, your thoughts are not my thoughts. I think the still waters mentality is worse than the mentality of the churchs of this world. You come out of the fire and lay down in the bliss. I don't see what good that does anyone, unless they just seek escape from reality and just need to float on their new found Spiritual bliss.

Sin is an important focus in this transfer from darkness to Light. No, you don't have to fight for your Salvation, now the realization that it really is free is comming into focus. Now that energy can really accomplish something because it will be focused in the right direction with the right mindset on Overcomming and why Overcomming. Overcomming not for your Salvation, but for yourself to be a Master of the things in your life, not a Spiritual bear in hibernation, resting for a God who will wake you up sometime in the future. I cannot take Joy in your view, but I can take Joy that the Brothers real journey seems to be on the verge of Gods direction. I hope he takes the Journey with active participation, and not treat it like a vacation.  Peace.

[sparrow]

Well I don't see that rest is called for when God snatches someone out of the Fire, now the most exciting period in their Lives is about to occur. When I am stressed out I cannot rest properly, because its time to deal with the stress, not lay down on it until it goes away. You must forgive me for not adhereing to your views, but I will never seek to silence them, your thoughts are not my thoughts. I think the still waters mentality is worse than the mentality of the churchs of this world. You come out of the fire and lay down in the bliss. I don't see what good that does anyone, unless they just seek escape from reality and just need to float on their new found Spiritual bliss.

Sin is an important focus in this transfer from darkness to Light. No, you don't have to fight for your Salvation, now the realization that it really is free is comming into focus. Now that energy can really accomplish something because it will be focused in the right direction with the right mindset on Overcomming and why Overcomming. Overcomming not for your Salvation, but for yourself to be a Master of the things in your life, not a Spiritual bear in hibernation, resting for a God who will wake you up sometime in the future. I cannot take Joy in your view, but I can take Joy that the Brothers real journey seems to be on the verge of Gods direction. I hope he takes the Journey with active participation, and not treat it like a vacation.  Peace.

Gabe,
What Mickiel is obviously alluding to regarding my words, is not where my heart is at. At all.
I hope that you see this.


I've had these same ideas and thoughts written over my posts in red ink before.
Just red ink all over that does not belong and does not FIT what I am truly saying.
I have no desire to engage in fruitlessness such as this.

It's all right..
One day we will truly be great friends and play checkers, Mickiel..
But for now, we're just having a little breakdown in communication it seems.
I suppose I can understand why you see what you do in my words...
but there is nothing I can say or do to make you see it the way it is intended.
It's a perspective thing... that's all.


peace,
sparrow

[Mickiel]

[quote author=sparrow link=
Gabe,
What Mickiel is obviously alluding to regarding my words, is not where my heart is at. At all.
I hope that you see this.


I've had these same ideas and thoughts written over my posts in red ink before.
Just red ink all over that does not belong and does not FIT what I am truly saying.
I have no desire to engage in fruitlessness such as this.

It's all right..
One day we will truly be great friends and play checkers, Mickiel..
But for now, we're just having a little breakdown in communication it seems.
I suppose I can understand why you see what you do in my words...
but there is nothing I can say or do to make you see it the way it is intended.
It's a perspective thing... that's all.


peace,
sparrow
[/quote]


Well I assure you that I hold no intention of blotting out what you have said in red ink, your thoughts are more common than mine. And I am not argueing a point, I am simply expressing my views as you are, and enjoying the freedom to do so. When someone feels they have lost direction in Life, that can be a very important crossroad for them, and often is the very entrance to them finding the Truth. That is more important than how you or I feel. What was lost and feeling downhearted, now is on the verge of being found, which is a cause to rejoice.

I quess where me and you differ, is that when you run accross such a person, you feel their pain and want to lead them to lay down and rest, and I understand that, espically if thats how you handled it yourself. I didnot handle it like that, and still don't to this day. Nor do I encourage such an approach. If you have lost your direction, then find it. Get up off of your depression and do something about it. And God will help you to do something. I see then two contrasting views to how to handle loosing your direction in Life, One, Rest in Christ; or secondly, do something in Christ. I choose the latter, and pray God finds me doing as such when he returns. A doer of his words, not resting on them.

Peace.

[sparrow]

Gabe... When I say that I believe you should "rest"... and let him lead you to the still waters, I am saying to take it easy. To quietly, in the stillness of your heart, contemplate what it means that all are saved. To, instead of feeling like you have to "DO" something at this moment, or that you have to figure out what to do about church or other believers or even what your family is thinking right now...

to Just put ALL of that aside.

and to slow down.
and peacefully contemplate just what it means...
that all are saved.
allow yourself the quiet time to explore the profoundness of it all.
That our God is a God of PEACE and LOVE.
and nothing else.
HE *IS* LOVE.

You don't have to rush out and find all the answers and figure out the giant puzzle of life right now.
For now, I personally feel you should have a time of rest.

A time to allow His love to personally fill you..
in the stillness of the moment.
In the quietness of your own mind.

You know how sometimes when you're concentrating really hard and your forehead is all wrinkled up and you have this sorta grim look on your face. And then you catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror?!  You instantly relax your forehead and your whole face kinda relaxes for a minute... That's what I'm talking about..

Just rest for a spell.
Go out and sit outside when you can and look at His creation.
Think about how much more beautiful it is now knowing that all people are brothers and sisters...
and that God loves ALL of us. With a passion, none of us have ever humanly felt..

Just rest, brother.
Let yourself slowly be immersed in the wonder of it all...
He is right beside you leading you to the still waters..

The rest of the stuff will come later..
but for now,
just rest.


peace,
sparrow

[jiggyfly]

What does it look like to deny oneself?'
How does it look like in your life 

You honestly don't know??? You don't understand what it means to deny self?

[Loveroftruth]

I do know, I just know that some have a really super spiritual definition of it.... meaning we have to be beat to a pulp, suffer a lot to finally "die to self".

I was just wondering what it looked like to you 

[Gizmo]

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That was said BEFORE the cross, before Jesus ended the system of relating to God based on our actions.  God relates to us based on Jesus.  In other words, I am freed from the commandments of Jesus by the sacrifice of Jesus!  So I feel no need to deny myself, take up my cross or any such thing.  But if you do, go for it!

[jiggyfly]

I do know, I just know that some have a really super spiritual definition of it.... meaning we have to be beat to a pulp, suffer a lot to finally "die to self".

I was just wondering what it looked like to you 

I agree with you about how some see it but I would call that definition  carnal rather than super spiritual.

I agree with Paul's concept.
Galatians 5:16-26
16 So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict. 18 But when you are directed by the Holy Spirit, you are no longer subject to the law.
19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, 20 idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be jealous of one another.

[jiggyfly]

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That was said BEFORE the cross, before Jesus ended the system of relating to God based on our actions.  God relates to us based on Jesus. In other words, I am freed from the commandments of Jesus by the sacrifice of Jesus! So I feel no need to deny myself, take up my cross or any such thing.  But if you do, go for it!

What about His command to love others????

[Loveroftruth]

I do know, I just know that some have a really super spiritual definition of it.... meaning we have to be beat to a pulp, suffer a lot to finally "die to self".

I was just wondering what it looked like to you 

I agree with you about how some see it but I would call that definition  carnal rather than super spiritual.

I agree with Paul's concept.
Galatians 5:16-26
16 So I advise you to live according to your new life in the Holy Spirit. Then you won't be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17 The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is just opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and your choices are never free from this conflict. 18 But when you are directed by the Holy Spirit, you are no longer subject to the law.
19 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, your lives will produce these evil results: sexual immorality, impure thoughts, eagerness for lustful pleasure, 20 idolatry, participation in demonic activities, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, the feeling that everyone is wrong except those in your own little group, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other kinds of sin. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
22 But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Here there is no conflict with the law.
24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25 If we are living now by the Holy Spirit, let us follow the Holy Spirit's leading in every part of our lives. 26 Let us not become conceited, or irritate one another, or be jealous of one another.

 

[Loveroftruth]

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That was said BEFORE the cross, before Jesus ended the system of relating to God based on our actions.  God relates to us based on Jesus. In other words, I am freed from the commandments of Jesus by the sacrifice of Jesus! So I feel no need to deny myself, take up my cross or any such thing.  But if you do, go for it!

What about His command to love others????

But if I am commanded to love someone then its not real love 

If you hold a gun to me and say "LOVE ME" I wont be able to. Love is something that HAS TO BE BY FREE WILL.

That is why ET is Such a bad teaching, it basically says "God wants to you to love Him and wants you to come to Him because you want to but if you dont he will punish and tourture you 

Love can NOT be command IMO

[jiggyfly]

Mark 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

That was said BEFORE the cross, before Jesus ended the system of relating to God based on our actions.  God relates to us based on Jesus. In other words, I am freed from the commandments of Jesus by the sacrifice of Jesus! So I feel no need to deny myself, take up my cross or any such thing.  But if you do, go for it!

What about His command to love others????

But if I am commanded to love someone then its not real love 

If you hold a gun to me and say "LOVE ME" I wont be able to. Love is something that HAS TO BE BY FREE WILL.

That is why ET is Such a bad teaching, it basically says "God wants to you to love Him and wants you to come to Him because you want to but if you dont he will punish and tourture you 

Love can NOT be command IMO

So why did Jesus do it??