Author Topic: I have three questions.  (Read 23328 times)

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Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2009, 01:09:53 AM »
Molly I thought you believed in timeLESSness? Now you believe in an unbroken age? How long would that age last for you? An infinite age? The perpetuity of time?

Molly

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2009, 01:14:06 AM »
Molly I thought you believed in timeLESSness? Now you believe in an unbroken age? How long would that age last for you? An infinite age? The perpetuity of time?

Not to mention death being swallowed up in victory.  I forgot that clause.  (I like to read the fine print but I don't always understand it).

Hey, I think we're good to go--into eternity.

Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2009, 01:17:08 AM »

Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2009, 01:28:51 AM »
Molly you have said to me:

But don't you think it is possible tor us to be free from time some day?

That is, unbound from the linear nature of time.

Then Doc said: "Once again, Molly; the concordant literal has John 11:26 as "shall not be dying for the eon", not; "never die". Big difference in understanding between those translations."

then you appealed to this definition saying:

"Fine.  I'll take it.  I'll be one of the clouds of witnesses.  How long is an eon?

"aion"

for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
the worlds, universe
period of time, age "

So what I am saying is that it appears that you are now appealing to the "linear nature of time" which is what an aion is by definition, "the perpetuity of time" to suggest that John 11:26 means that we will not die. John 11:26 says that we will not die for the eon. To prove that the scripture says that we will "never die" I would be interested in your response to that regarding your belief in timelessness, not a span of time called an aion.

How does John 11:26 prove that we will NEVER die, especially in light of what the scripture says that it is appointed to all men to die at least once?

« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 01:35:12 AM by Seth »

fullarmor2

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2009, 05:47:29 AM »
Thank you all very much.

For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Molly

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2009, 07:18:33 AM »
Quote
So what I am saying is that it appears that you are now appealing to the "linear nature of time" which is what an aion is by definition, "the perpetuity of time" to suggest that John 11:26 means that we will not die. John 11:26 says that we will not die for the eon. To prove that the scripture says that we will "never die" I would be interested in your response to that regarding your belief in timelessness, not a span of time called an aion.

How does John 11:26 prove that we will NEVER die, especially in light of what the scripture says that it is appointed to all men to die at least once?

Not sure what you are saying but my contract has so many coverings, that should one fail, another would kick in.  Maybe I already died--and that is behind me--maybe this 'aion' is forever--but I am nevertheless promised eternity with my Saviour--

Romans 8:38
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

WhiteWings

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2009, 07:53:35 AM »
Quote
Whom do we believe?"

Since we believe in him and live in him, why can't we believe Jesus?

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--John 11

Once again, Molly; the concordant literal has John 11:26 as "shall not be dying for the eon", not; "never die". Big difference in understanding between those translations.
But the effect can be the same.
Say the eon lasts 10 years. That eon is followed by an infinitly long eon in which nobody dies.
So those who 'survive' the first 10 years never die.

If I state I won't die this year I just stated I won't die this year. In no way I said I'll die in 2010. Never add to what you read.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2009, 08:00:05 AM »
Not sure what you are saying but my contract has so many coverings, that should one fail, another would kick in.  Maybe I already died--and that is behind me--maybe this 'aion' is forever--but I am nevertheless promised eternity with my Saviour--

If this aion is forever, then time never ends. And if Jesus says that those who believe on him will not be dying for the eon, it doesn't mean that they will never die.

Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2009, 08:01:19 AM »
WW, if it as appointed to ALL men once to die, and you never die, then the scripture is wrong.

jabcat

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2009, 08:29:05 AM »
Also, aren't some scriptures seemingly talking about spiritual life/death, while others seem to be addressing physical life/death - for instance, for an eon?  Without going out and finding particular ones, that's what I think anyway.
Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

Molly

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2009, 08:35:36 AM »
WW, if it as appointed to ALL men once to die, and you never die, then the scripture is wrong.

You gotta read the fine print--

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

--Rom 6

WhiteWings

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2009, 08:36:44 AM »
Agreed jabcat.
Seth also agreed.
I think the first thing to figure out when exactly the eons are.
If the mentioned eon was for example when sinners are cast in LoF (2nd death) the saints don't die.
Then the verse suddenly makes a lot more sense.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2009, 08:54:43 AM »
WW, if it as appointed to ALL men once to die, and you never die, then the scripture is wrong.

You gotta read the fine print--

3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

--Rom 6

Well, I don't really consider that fine print. But if that is how you interpret Hebrews 9, not sure why you said you were undecided that everyone would be saved.

Hebrews 9:27-28
and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this -- judgment, so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!

It is appointed to all men once to die and AFTER this, judgment. The judgment he is talking about is the completion, AFTER people die because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. That is why all men must die like Christ. There are no exceptions provided in Hebrews 9 as to the likeness of Christ's death. Everyone will both die to sin, and because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God all mortals are appointed to die that they may become immortal AFTER their mortal death leads to resurrection. The judgment for us is our final completion.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 08:57:44 AM by Seth »

Molly

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2009, 08:57:27 AM »
21Martha said to Jesus, "Lord,if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you." 23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."

28When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying in private, "The Teacher is here and is calling for you."

--John 11

I really think that Jesus didn't use the word aion there as meaning a finite period of time.  Otherwise, Martha would have said, like I did--How long is that?

Neither do I think Jesus would say I am the resurrection and the life.  Whoever believes in me will live until 2015 [the end of the age].  That doesn't even make sense in that context.

Therefore, he was most surely saying, everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

After all, it's not the first time Jesus makes such claims.

John 8
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

JOhn 6
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.

John 6
50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2009, 09:00:40 AM »
21Martha said to Jesus, "Lord,if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you." 23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."

28When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying in private,(AG) "The Teacher is here and is calling for you."

--John 11

I really think that Jesus didn't use the word aion there as meaning a finite period of time.  Otherwise, Martha would have said, like I did--How long is that?

Neither do I think Jesus would say I am the resurrection and the life.  Whoever believes in me will live until 2015 [the end of the age].  That doesn't even make sense in that context.

Therefore, he was most surely saying, everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die.

After all, it's not the first time Jesus makes such claims.

John 8
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

JOhn 6
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.

John 6
50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

What was missing in Martha's understanding was the Promise of the Spirit.

She did not realize that the gift of the aion, which is aionios life is Christ within. That is why Jesus said those who believe in "shall not be dying for the eon." Martha was only thinking about resurrection to immortality, not deliverance from sin. That is what Jesus was adding.

BOTH deliverance from sin AND immortality are promised through the gospel.

Morals die.

Sinners are living in death.

Jesus destroy both deaths because he gives aionios life (not being dead in the eon) and immortality when we mortals die as are appointed to do.

Molly

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2009, 09:07:29 AM »
Quote
"shall not be dying for the eon."

How long is that?

Zeek

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2009, 02:25:34 PM »
appointed unto man to die:

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

after this death, is judgment:

What did you do with this knowledge?

2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

believe on him and never die; at the upcoming judgment day.

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.------->second death

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.

fell not----->never die.

how many heard???

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 02:32:06 PM by Zeek »

Zeek

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2009, 02:34:52 PM »
2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Zeek

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2009, 02:36:38 PM »
Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

believe on him----->never die second death at the day of judment

turn away----------->die SECOND death.

Cardinal

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2009, 03:07:24 PM »
WW, if it as appointed to ALL men once to die, and you never die, then the scripture is wrong.

Or you could die to self in this life and never die.........man was in bondage to the fear of death (to self) all of his days........perfect love casts out all fear.......perfect love is no greater love has any man than this, that he die for his friend(s)......die as He died, live as He lives.......Blessings......
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

rosered

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2009, 04:01:24 PM »

I am jumping in here lol ,  on a leap of faith

since we are talking about      these things
I have considered the New Testament to be the BOOK OF LIFE ..
and written in them are these  three  names and those  names have meaning as we can be found also in the same [boat/ body mind set]
Kim a dear friend pointed out to me once why did Jesus say Martha , Martha twice ? was she  being double  minded ?   I thought  Yes! of course that must be why Jesus called it   out   for  observation !!

its a principal thing    just look and see if  Martha was being in the world / this life
and  also being spirital  minded too !   that is why she got so stressed out and asked for sisterly  help ...

see the name meanings and what is in the book of life and how it does apply to  our lives   the soul and spirit of every one

Luk 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

Strong's G3136 - Martha  Martha = "she was rebellious"

probably of Aramaic origin (meaning mistress)

1) was the sister of Lazarus and Mary of Bethany

Strong's G3137 - Maria
Μαρία
Transliteration

Maria
Pronunciation

mä-rē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech

proper feminine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

of Hebrew origin H4813

TDNT Reference

n/a

Variant Spellings
Outline of Biblical Usage
Mary or Miriam = "their rebellion"

Bethany = "house of dates" or, "house of misery"
1) a village at the Mount of Olives, about two miles (3 km) from Jerusalem, on or near the normal road to Jericho

2) a town or village on the east bank of the Jordan, where John was baptising

Jhn 11:1  Now a certain [man] was sick, [named] Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
Lazarus = "whom God helps" (a form of the Hebrew name Eleazar)

1) an inhabitant of Bethany, beloved by Christ and raised from the dead by him

2) a very poor and wretched person to whom Jesus referred to in Luke 16:20-25

there is soooooooooooo much more to speak about with just these two
chapters in Luke and in John
Jesus is the reward  !!

Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2009, 06:38:21 PM »
Quote
"shall not be dying for the eon."

How long is that?

It doesn't matter.

Seth

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2009, 06:53:52 PM »
appointed unto man to die:

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

after this death, is judgment:

What did you do with this knowledge?

2Co 5:15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

believe on him and never die; at the upcoming judgment day.

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2Co 5:20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

2Co 5:21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.------->second death

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.

fell not----->never die.

how many heard???

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Yes, Molly, as I said BOTH deliverance from sin AND immortality are promised through the gospel.

Morals die.

Sinners are living in death.

Jesus destroy both deaths because he gives aionios life (not being dead in the eon) and immortality when we mortals die as are appointed to do.

Mark 10:30
who may not receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brothers, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and fields, with persecutions, and in the age that is coming, aionios life;

Aionios life is defined by John as being something that can be within us now, because it is knowledge of God. The age to come that Jesus was talking about began with Pentecost.

2 Tim 1:10
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light through the gospel

Compare to:

John 11:26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he DIE, yet shall he live, and everyone WHO LIVES and believes in me shall not die in the aion.

So Jesus is saying two things in that verse:

1) Whoever believes, THOUGH HE DIE (as everyone does), YET SHALL HE LIVE. (the promise of immortality to those who will die since they are mortal, yet they will live because except a seed go into the ground and die, it cannot live)

2) Whoever IS ALIVE and believes in Christ shall not die IN THE AION (the promise of the life of Christ by the spirit unto deliverance from sin)

That is why I repeat that both life and immorality are brought to light through the gospel. Jesus is confirming BOTH to Martha. That is why I say that it doesn't matter "how long" the aion is. Each person has an aion, in which they have aionios life provided that they are alive in their aion and able to believe.

Luke 13:32
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God which is why, though Christ was spiritual in his mind, his perfection was in casting of the mortal flesh, which is what we look forward to. That is what Jesus is laying out for martha, the full process.

1) If people believe in Christ while they live, then they will be delivered from death in sin because they shall not be dying in the aion (aionios life)

2) ALSO, they will have immortality when the process is completed by dying in their mortality and being raised immortal ("though they die, yet shall they live") Then they will be perfected.

2 Corinthians 5:4
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul had no doubt that he was clothed with the MIND of Christ. Yet he yearned to ALSO clothe himself with immortality, which he knew would not happen while in his mortal body. Paul knew that BOTH the life of Christ unto salvation of our minds and immortality are covered by the gospel. So, you can quote all the scriptures that speak about deliverance from sin. I already know about them. But I also know about the Biblical teaching that assures our immortality when we receive it.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2009, 07:11:56 PM by Seth »

Molly

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2009, 08:11:04 PM »
Quote
So, you can quote all the scriptures that speak about deliverance from sin. I already know about them. But I also know about the Biblical teaching that assures our immortality when we receive it.

I think I understand what you are saying, but, to me, it's just semantics.  When, then, would you say I receive immortality?  When I physically die?  Or when some event happens at the end of the age?

But I could consider myself already dead [physically] in Christ.  Therefore, I am already raised from the dead [in Christ].  Therefore, I will not die again, as Christ did not.

If you mean I will leave this body, this temporary dwelling place, this tent, that hardly matters because I do not expect to experience sleep, or any interruption in consciousness, and I expect to be clothed in a different body, which I have already experienced.

Thus, we die, and then the judgment, but, judgment begins with the house of God, we  already died [with Christ], so our judgment to perfection is happening now.  It will be over with at physical death, and maybe even while we are still alive in this body.  Thus, I don't expect to even experience a hiccup at my physical death, which I have also already experienced.

In other words, I am already immortal.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8

Gilbert

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Re: I have three questions.
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2009, 08:16:16 PM »
Quote
So, you can quote all the scriptures that speak about deliverance from sin. I already know about them. But I also know about the Biblical teaching that assures our immortality when we receive it.

I think I understand what you are saying, but, to me, it's just semantics.  When, then, would you say I receive immortality?  When I physically die?  Or when some event happens at the end of the age?

But I could consider myself already dead [physically] in Christ.  Therefore, I am already raised from the dead [in Christ].  Therefore, I will not die again, as Christ did not.

If you mean I will leave this body, this temporary dwelling place, this tent, that hardly matters because I do not expect to experience sleep, or any interruption in consciousness, and I expect to be clothed in a different body, which I have already experienced.

Thus, we die, and then the judgment, but, judgment begins with the house of God, we  already died [with Christ], so our judgment to perfection is happening now.  It will be over with at physical death, and maybe even while we are still alive in this body.  Thus, I don't expect to even experience a hiccup at my physical death, which I have also already experienced.

In other words, I am already immortal.

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

--Rom 8

Hi! Molly

Every once-an'-awhile someone posts a comment in here which simply elevates things to a most wonderful level of thought ... this is certainly one of them!
Thanks!