Author Topic: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions  (Read 18592 times)

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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #150 on: November 01, 2012, 06:47:06 PM »
Dajomaco,
thank you. I thought of free will in a different way thanks to your post.

Man has a will. That will is to sin.
Man wants to be FREE to sin in any which way he likes or desires or wills.

If our lives are given over to God we want to do the will of God which is to Love.
Love is the opposite of sin. The more we conform to the will of God by loving, the less sin will be in our life.
Man wants his free will because "a man wants to do what a man wants to do" and we humans just don't like anyone telling us what's best for us, or what we should do.
Maybe God just gives us the illussion of free will cuz he knows how happy it makes us to think it was our choice and we made the right choice. :doh:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #151 on: November 01, 2012, 06:59:38 PM »
Dajomaco,
thank you. I thought of free will in a different way thanks to your post.

Man has a will. That will is to sin.
Man wants to be FREE to sin in any which way he likes or desires or wills.

If our lives are given over to God we want to do the will of God which is to Love.
Love is the opposite of sin. The more we conform to the will of God by loving, the less sin will be in our life.
Man wants his free will because "a man wants to do what a man wants to do" and we humans just don't like anyone telling us what's best for us, or what we should do.
Maybe God just gives us the illussion of free will cuz he knows how happy it makes us to think it was our choice and we made the right choice. :doh:

I agree except for "The more we conform...." I believe maybe you meant "the more we yield and submit" to the Will of God. If i misspoke I'm sorry.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #152 on: November 01, 2012, 07:24:47 PM »
No need. While I was writing that I was thinking of the verse "Being conformed to the image of His Son" so that's what came out. You are correct.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 01:33:50 AM by ded2daworld »
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #153 on: November 01, 2012, 09:37:59 PM »
man wants his will free to sin
Jesus disciples men to love freely :o)
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #154 on: November 01, 2012, 10:24:40 PM »
man wants his will free to sin
Jesus disciples men to love freely :o)

Man, of himself does not "want" to sin, it is his very nature to sin.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #155 on: November 01, 2012, 11:19:48 PM »
man wants his will free to sin
Jesus disciples men to love freely :o)

Man, of himself does not "want" to sin, it is his very nature to sin.

Just semantics.
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #156 on: November 02, 2012, 12:01:16 AM »
Don't believe so. :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #157 on: November 02, 2012, 12:56:57 AM »
He wants to cuz its in his nature LOL :Peace2:
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Offline onlytruth

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #158 on: November 02, 2012, 01:17:31 AM »
so sinning is built in?

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #159 on: November 02, 2012, 01:36:39 AM »
yes we are born with a sin nature and are slaves to sin. We cannot NOT sin unless Christ intervenes. Even after he does we still find ourselves sinning now occaisonally and asking forgiveness rather than sinning regularly and not really caring.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline jabcat

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #160 on: November 02, 2012, 01:53:32 AM »
yes we are born with a sin nature and are slaves to sin. We cannot NOT sin unless Christ intervenes. Even after he does we still find ourselves sinning now occaisonally and asking forgiveness rather than sinning regularly and not really caring.

 :nod:

Offline onlytruth

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #161 on: November 02, 2012, 02:03:07 AM »
so God allows us to sin....so we don't have a choice?

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #162 on: November 02, 2012, 02:52:47 AM »
Certainly God allows us to sin. If God removed someone from the face of the earth whenever that person committed a sin, the world would have no humans on it within 48 hours and not from a rapture. We don't have a choice before Christ. The bible says we are a slave to sin before knowing Christ.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #163 on: November 02, 2012, 03:07:58 AM »
Well, That's what the whole thread is about up until now and there is not agreement on the subject :o)

I believe sin IS built in, but we do have a choice, and therein is the struggle.

Only grace, however, can change human nature, "If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation, old things pass away, behold, all things become new."

I believe there is a "duality" or a "paradoxical paradigm" within which God operates in foreknowledge, calling, election etc.- all the while still leaving man a certain degree of sovereignty, within which man is learning about the nature of God and becoming transformed into it.

It is probably the minority opinion :o)

Since God causes "all things to work according to the counsel of His will" and " the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." He is absolutely sovereign .

Yet He, within His sovereign will can do whatever He wants, including giving man a measure of choice- a stewardship over which man may be penalized or rewarded according to his exercise of that stewardship, in order to gain friends(Abraham the Father of faith was called, 'the friend of God') who understand Him and can fellowship with Him intimately.

Is sin built in? Yes, "For, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"
(Rom 5:12)

Do we have a choice? Yes, "Walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh".... "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you"

Can we do it on our own? Absolutely not, "For it is by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God".

Is there anything we can do to help ourselves and please Him? Absolutely. "Today, If you hear His voice, harden not your heart as they did in the wilderness and saw my works 40 years, as I said in my displeasure, 'They shall not enter my rest'"

Why? Because those who are in the flesh cannot please God, because they cannot receive the things of God and consider them foolishness.

How? Pray that you enter not into temptation....
          Pray that you be "strengthened with might by His Spirit in your inner man"
           Be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you can prove what is the good, the complete, the pleasing will of God.

That's just my  :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:
           
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Offline ded2daworld

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #164 on: November 02, 2012, 03:27:53 AM »
12 cents?  :laughing7:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #165 on: November 02, 2012, 03:30:34 AM »
HaH........back to school for basic math for me I guess  :dunno2:

Or maybe basic English....

These are my  :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c: :2c:

or

These are my two centses
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 03:36:48 AM by eaglesway »
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Offline Paul L

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #166 on: November 02, 2012, 04:54:54 AM »
Eagle,

I think I am reading that you are suggesting that God's sovereign will allows man to also have a "will" to exercise "choices" ? That man has a limited range of choices subject to God's limitations inside his sovereign will (choices)?

I think this is what could be labeled the short leash principle.

Am I reading you correctly?

Offline onlytruth

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #167 on: November 02, 2012, 06:01:43 AM »
Jesus was ready to walk in his own freewill, we aren't ,I believe we are being lead in all the things we do or don't do until the appointed time.
I don't think we can handle the whole truth yet,if we did I believe we would be set outside the garden like Adam
Like someone said, it seems like semantics as we persist in the desert
Waiting for that day of revelation
My two cents

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #168 on: November 02, 2012, 07:44:35 AM »
Eagle,

I think I am reading that you are suggesting that God's sovereign will allows man to also have a "will" to exercise "choices" ? That man has a limited range of choices subject to God's limitations inside his sovereign will (choices)?

I think this is what could be labeled the short leash principle.

Am I reading you correctly?

I am not sure what I believe fits within the short leash principle-since I am not familiar with the specifics of it, but maybe so. I believe the leash is there for sure. Once we are born of God, the leash gets longer as we mature, until there is no leash in the resurrection, only "the glorious liberty of the sons of God". Regardless of the choices made with the circle of limitations imposed by the leash, the overall plan of God marches inexorably on, until finally, God is ALL IN ALL- and all will be totally free(rule, power and authority abolished because the whole creation is set free from futility into the aforementioned glorious freedom of the sons of God). Thats a real short sorta kinda how I see it :o)
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #169 on: November 02, 2012, 04:25:55 PM »
Eph 2:3  among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest: -

Leash????
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #170 on: November 02, 2012, 04:29:49 PM »
maybe the old man in us,taken captive to the will of the adversary,born in sin..does not have a free will

  but the new man in Christ..in the image of God has a will,like God?

   part of the subjection to vanity could be the binding of all men up in sin...in order to set the whole creation free

   [free will to serve God unhindered] into the glorious freedom of the Sons of God

   maybe the binding of us all up in sin[exercize in evil] is for the strengthening of the good/will...

  always it says..the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak[bound in sin]

Offline lomarah

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #171 on: November 02, 2012, 04:36:30 PM »
Yeah Sheila, and always I am waiting and longing for the glorious freedom of the sons of God. Never looked at free will like that before, very interesting concept for sure!
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Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #172 on: November 02, 2012, 05:22:00 PM »
  thinking of Jerusalem Above...the Free woman..of which we are born from above...by the will

  of God.    Sarah represented her in the earth. though a free woman..she called him Lord in her heart

..as the one who receives the promised seed.  Sarah 'laughed' at this Proverbs 21;35 She is clothed

 with strength and dignity,she can LAUGH at the days to come.[a wife of noble character]

   her husband is respected at the city gate, when he takes his seat among the elders of the land

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #173 on: November 02, 2012, 05:28:56 PM »
maybe the old man in us,taken captive to the will of the adversary,born in sin..does not have a free will

  but the new man in Christ..in the image of God has a will,like God?

   part of the subjection to vanity could be the binding of all men up in sin...in order to set the whole creation free

   [free will to serve God unhindered] into the glorious freedom of the Sons of God

   maybe the binding of us all up in sin[exercize in evil] is for the strengthening of the good/will...

  always it says..the spirit is willing,but the flesh is weak[bound in sin]

 :dsunny:  Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #174 on: November 02, 2012, 05:45:27 PM »
 thinking on the scriptures that a son can't be discerned from a servant..in his youth,even though

  he be heir of all things..but is under tutors[servant does will of someone else/not his own]

    a servant will rule over a foolish son..etc.

   son remains in household forever servant doesn't..

  yet Jesus a son and heir become as a servant in obediance....

   does a son honour/respect his father's will? HONOUR THY FATHER AND MOTHER

   Mark 7   you have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your

  traditions!  For Moses said 'Honour your father and mother,and anyone who curses his father and mother

  must be put to death.   But,you say, that  if a man says to his father or mother; whatever help you might

 otherwisehave recieved from me is Corban[that is a gift devoted to God] then you no longer

  let him do anything for his father or mother.Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that

  you have handed down. And you do many things like that

[Numbers 30;1-2 was used to justify corban vow...again letter of law versus spirit   when a man

makes a vow he must do everything he said