Author Topic: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions  (Read 15854 times)

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Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #125 on: October 31, 2012, 06:16:50 PM »
THE RECONCILIATION OF ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH...IS THE CASTING OUT

  OUT OF THE EVIL TOOL/CONTRAST SPIRIT OF REBELLION...

  WHEREVER THIS EVIL SPIRIT OF REBELLION AGAINST GOD IS IT IS BROTHER AGAINST BROTHER

     THOSE BORN OF GOD CAN NOT SIN...THIS SPIRIT IS NOT OF GOD..BUT A NEGATIVE

  CONTRAST TOOL.  IT NEVER ENTERS GOD'S HEART TO BURN HIS CHILDREN IN FIRE

  BUT HE WILLA NON-LIVING IMITATION EVIL TOOL


Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #126 on: October 31, 2012, 08:02:29 PM »
    GOD'S FINGER

    LUKE 11;20  BUT IF I DRIVE OUT DEMONS BY THE FINGER OF GOD...

  THEN THE KINGDOM  OF GOD HAS COME TO YOU

  LUKE11;20  BUT SOME OF THEM SAID IT WAS BY MEANS OF BEELZEBUB, THE PRINCE OF DEMONS

  HE IS DRIVING OUT DEMONS[LEST ANY THINK I HOLD TO A DOCTRINE OF DEMONS SPEAKING

  OF SATAN/DEMONS TO BE CAST OUT FROM INHERITANCE] HE IS DRIVING OUT DEMONS.

    JESUS KNEW THEIR THOUGHTS AND SAID TO THEM' ANY KINGDOM DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF

   WILL FALL. IF SATN IS DIVIDED AGAINST HIMSELF HOW CAN HIS KINGDOM STAND[IRON/CLAY]

   I SAY THIS BECAUSE YOU CLAIM THAT I DRIVE OUT DEMONS[NOT SHOWN MERCY] BY BEELZEBUB


    NOW,IF I DRIVE OUT DEMONS BY BEELZEBUB,WHOM DO YOUR FOLLOWERS DRIVE THEM OUT

   [AS COUNTERFEIT LIES DOCTRINES OF DEMONS] SO THEN,THEY WILL BE YOUR JUDGES

    BUT IF I DRIVE OUT DEMONS BY THE FINGER OF GOD..THEN THE KINGDOM HAS COME TO YOU.


   LOOK!   SUDDENLY THE FINGERS OF A HUMAN HAND APPEARED AND WROTE ON THE

  PLASTER OF THE WALL,NEAR THE LAMPSTAND IN THE ROYAL PALACE.......

  GOD HAS NUMBERED THE DAYS OF YOUR REIGN AND BROUGHT IT TO AN END

   YOU HAVE BEEN JUDGED[WEIGHED ON SCALES]

  YOUR KINGDOM IS DIVIDED[SHALL FALL]

  MATTHEW 12;25-37  JESUSKNEW THEIR THOUGHTS[IT IS BY EVIL THAT SATAN IS NOT FORGIVEN/

  OR DRIVEN OUT/TOLD TO DEPART]

  V 31  AND SO I TELL YOU,EVERY SIN AND BLASPHEMY WILL BE FORGIVEN MEN..........

   BUT THE BLASPHEMY AGAINST THE SPIRIT WILL NOT BE FORGIVEN.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #127 on: October 31, 2012, 10:28:00 PM »
and so,we now understand why Father chose to teach His children using good evil contrast

   what an expierence/exercize


We his children are now, heirs no longer drinking milk

Scales lifted -eyes now see- past- through the contrast of good and evil.
Now soul focus is Love where there is no fear of lessons already learned
Thru the contrast of Good and evil

Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #128 on: October 31, 2012, 11:01:28 PM »
YES DAJ, WE MAY BE SEEING THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL[VALLEY OFSHADOW OF DEATH]

  BUT SO MANY ARE IN DARKNESS.

   ISAAIH 60  ARISE SHINE,FOR YOUR LIGHT HAS COME,AND THE GLORY OF THE LORD RISES

  UPON YOU.  SEE..DARKNESS COVERS THE EARTH AND THICK DARKNESS IS OVER  THE PEOPLES

  BUT THE LORD RISES UPON YOU AND HIS GLORY APPEARS OVER YOU,

 NATIONS WILL COME TO YOUR LIGHT ND KINGS TO THE BRIGHTNESS OF YOUR DAWN


Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #129 on: October 31, 2012, 11:20:00 PM »

will thelō  ethelō

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
(Mat 16:24-25)

There are over 200 uses of this word in the New Testament used interchangeably for God's will and man's will.

In Strong's I looked up the word: #2309- It seems to most closely match the English word "choice" or "desire". I read this like God has "choices" & "desires", and man likewise, we just don't often make the right choices, God always does but appears to not always enforce his "choices" or "desires" upon us.

I believe you are right, but God is the "cause" that effects our "choices."
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #130 on: October 31, 2012, 11:54:36 PM »
I have no problem with that either.

I will say tho, that I read all 20 + uses of thelo ethelo- it definitely means "will" in many of those uses and would not make sense as desire in all of them- altho it does in some of them.
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Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #131 on: November 01, 2012, 12:06:12 AM »
WHAT ABOUT WILLFUL SIN?  HEBREWS 10;26

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #132 on: November 01, 2012, 12:17:49 AM »
WHAT ABOUT WILLFUL SIN?  HEBREWS 10;26

Heb 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Some "cause" showed it's self, imo. I believe we have the option of choice, something arose to make the desicion to sin
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #133 on: November 01, 2012, 12:49:07 AM »
12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. 17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. 18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.

Lust is certainly one cause, being yoked as it is to the will of man, and motivating the pursuit of his desires.
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #134 on: November 01, 2012, 02:52:10 AM »
Gen. 2:7 Gen. 2:8-9 Gen.2:15-17 Gen. 2:18-25 Gen.3:1-7 With in this offering, is there any implication man was instilled with a will, be it free or other wise?
We know that the man had some knowledge, for he had named all the animals and knowledge means H3045 a primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing)... cunning. (Gen.3:6 "saw")

To believe, assume, or contrive that the Lord God, after creating and making the works of Genesis 1
that He would give up His sovereign throne of authority to a "will" other than His, that would/could have the possibility of overthrowing His, for me is silly.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #135 on: November 01, 2012, 05:00:20 AM »
IMO, God could not be overthrown by any will, free or otherwise. The idea that God must control us in order to reconcile us is not an absolute logic chain by any means. God could set us totally free(which He hasn't yet, but He is in the process of doing) and still win us with the glory of His love and goodness eventually.

As I see it, the glorious liberty of the children of God is TOTAL FREEDOM FREELY YIELDED BACK TO GOD IN LOVE.

That is why we needed the law to show us the law doesnt work.......love does.

The truth is probably more like, God has given us enough rope to hang ourselves so that He can teach us how to yield our will to love. If I was intent on fellowship with someone I would want them to want to, not be forced to.

So also, in the love between a man and a woman, each wants the other to love them because they see the beauty within them and WANT TO share it, not HAVE TO. God seeks to AWAKEN OUR LOVE as a betrothed. His acts will continually lead us into places where we are meant to choose His love- or go one more time around the mountain.

Many verses have been presented that a reasonable, honest person could read towards man having been given a will by God. We just don't all see them the same- and that's OK, this is only a discussion :o)

I don't see how God could create man in His image and not give him a will.

The whole story of the garden is about how God set man up to disobey, so that He could teach man that love is the perfect obedience.

In fact, I think it is impossible to love without a will, or to give freely that which we have freely received.

The way I see it, Love aligns the will of man and the will of God in one accord- and then the glory falls and restoration and reconciliation multiply. They walked in the glorious liberty of the children of God. No one among them had any need. They were chosen, elect to discipleship and sonship, a learning process in which they matured as they yielded. Indeed, the whole creation is so ordained :o)
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Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #136 on: November 01, 2012, 06:05:34 AM »
Isa 53:10  And Jehovah hath delighted to bruise him, He hath made him sick, If his soul doth make an offering for guilt, He seeth seed--he prolongeth days, And the pleasure of Jehovah in his hand doth prosper.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Paul L

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #137 on: November 01, 2012, 04:01:21 PM »
I have no problem with that either.

I will say tho, that I read all 20 + uses of thelo ethelo- it definitely means "will" in many of those uses and would not make sense as desire in all of them- altho it does in some of them.

But the issue is the definition of "will", until you go to the Greek definition it is a stand alone word with no meaning. To say: "-it definitely means "will" in many...." ; this is an almost pointless statement, it becomes something more like a statement that makes you feel good to say it so as to avoid engendering controversy as opposed to committing yourself to an absolute definition.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #138 on: November 01, 2012, 04:32:45 PM »
I personally believe we can't define what "will" other than Rom 8:20  For the Creation fell into subjection to failure and unreality (not of its own choice, but by the will of Him who so subjected it). (WNT)
 Now here we can see that what man is, is not by man's "choice," and man has no "will" in the sense his own creative desire, but exists in the WILL of the Creator. And man (still the first Adam) is a sinning vessel. Note this not a PUPPET situation, I despise that silly immature mentality.
I do not see nor can I see where man has a "will" [a thought force of his own] man leans to make "choices" caused by pain, humor, sorrow, loss, gain, weather, nature, fear, love, circumstances, etc.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #139 on: November 01, 2012, 04:43:40 PM »
Micah  :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #140 on: November 01, 2012, 04:47:17 PM »
Micah  :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:

 :dsunny: I love why? Gal 2:20  with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh--in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;
Gal 2:21  I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law--then Christ died in vain.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #141 on: November 01, 2012, 05:44:24 PM »
I have no problem with that either.

I will say tho, that I read all 20 + uses of thelo ethelo- it definitely means "will" in many of those uses and would not make sense as desire in all of them- altho it does in some of them.

But the issue is the definition of "will", until you go to the Greek definition it is a stand alone word with no meaning. To say: "-it definitely means "will" in many...." ; this is an almost pointless statement, it becomes something more like a statement that makes you feel good to say it so as to avoid engendering controversy as opposed to committing yourself to an absolute definition.

My point is that there is sufficient evidence in context and definition to say "will". There is this myth that every word has an absolute meaning, yet you posit "choice" and "desire", both of which indicate and are extensions of "will". You can't choose anything without a "will", nor can you "desire." Anyhting.
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #142 on: November 01, 2012, 05:55:20 PM »
Micah  :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:

IMO, The point in question in this thread is not so much, does man have "free will" as in "free from Gods action, direction and re-direction".  As I have said several times- nobody I kno is postulating that". Clearly, "all things work according to the counsel of His will."


However, the other polar extreme, "Man has NO will" is clearly questionable by the scriptures- and by no means clear within the context of all the scriptures concerning the will of man and the will of God.

How do you teach achild who has NO will anything?

 
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #143 on: November 01, 2012, 05:57:35 PM »
I have no problem with that either.

I will say tho, that I read all 20 + uses of thelo ethelo- it definitely means "will" in many of those uses and would not make sense as desire in all of them- altho it does in some of them.

But the issue is the definition of "will", until you go to the Greek definition it is a stand alone word with no meaning. To say: "-it definitely means "will" in many...." ; this is an almost pointless statement, it becomes something more like a statement that makes you feel good to say it so as to avoid engendering controversy as opposed to committing yourself to an absolute definition.

My point is that there is sufficient evidence in context and definition to say "will". There is this myth that every word has an absolute meaning, yet you posit "choice" and "desire", both of which indicate and are extensions of "will". You can't choose anything without a "will", nor can you "desire." Anyhting.

I have to agree, it is a very close knit thinking.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #144 on: November 01, 2012, 05:59:40 PM »
what about 'sin's law' spoken of by Paul...when he said the desire and will to do good is present...

    but the ability to carry it out 'hindered'.....he finds himself doing what he would not....

   seems due to sin in the flesh the flesh has a will of it's own......drawn out of it's own lust....

   for the spirit lusteth against the flesh and the flesh lusteth against the spirit.....again

  two differing spirits  one doesnt tempt[God] one is both temptor and accusor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #145 on: November 01, 2012, 06:04:30 PM »
Micah  :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:

IMO, The point in question in this thread is not so much, does man have "free will" as in "free from Gods action, direction and re-direction".  As I have said several times- nobody I kno is postulating that". Clearly, "all things work according to the counsel of His will."


However, the other polar extreme, "Man has NO will" is clearly questionable by the scriptures- and by no means clear within the context of all the scriptures concerning the will of man and the will of God.

How do you teach achild who has NO will anything?

Man DOES have a WILL and that WILL is to sin or just do what moves his emotions. Maybe human emotions would be a better case for the WILL of man? :sigh: :HeartThrob:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #146 on: November 01, 2012, 06:05:45 PM »
what about 'sin's law' spoken of by Paul...when he said the desire and will to do good is present...

    but the ability to carry it out 'hindered'.....he finds himself doing what he would not....

   seems due to sin in the flesh the flesh has a will of it's own......drawn out of it's own lust....

   for the spirit lusteth against the flesh and the flesh lusteth against the spirit.....again

  two differing spirits  one doesnt tempt[God] one is both temptor and accusor

 :dsunny: Yes.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #147 on: November 01, 2012, 06:14:10 PM »
so then man quickened in Christ and blessed with the Holy spirit....seeks to please God[do God's will]

  but being bound in sin/finds another 'contrary' will at work in his flesh[the spirit is willing but the flesh

  is weak]  thus the wrestling....and Paul's word...who will deliver me from this body undergoing this death

Offline eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #148 on: November 01, 2012, 06:19:40 PM »
what about 'sin's law' spoken of by Paul...when he said the desire and will to do good is present...

    but the ability to carry it out 'hindered'.....he finds himself doing what he would not....

   seems due to sin in the flesh the flesh has a will of it's own......drawn out of it's own lust....

   for the spirit lusteth against the flesh and the flesh lusteth against the spirit.....again

  two differing spirits  one doesnt tempt[God] one is both temptor and accusor

Certainly there are many verses that can seem contradictory to one another. I have no desire to split hairs and I also have no desire to "lock down absolutes" in areas where God has left some "wiggle room". I am not saying you are either Sheila :o). Just sharing in the spirit of midrash and open discussion.

But these "seemingly" contradictory verses and paradoxical paradigms they seem to support are usually the pillars on either side of a gate that leads to deeper truth.

"Sin in the flesh" is not necessarily disconnected from the will of man. It is the focus of his heart and will, that "lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life"- until he is begotten, not by the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but of God. Even after that however, man can "choose" to "walk in the flesh"- as Paul said to the Corinthians "walking as a natural man", babes, born of the spirit yet walking in the flesh.

If I choose to walk in the flesh, building "wood, hay and stubble", I may "lose my reward".

Yet, at the same time, it is God who subjected the entire creation to futility. What are we to do? Chose one "side" of revelation over against the other?

I think this is short sighted and undercuts the integrity of the Logos.

We want the black and white. I don't like the black and white, it is always out of the "letter" and brings bondage. My point is to flesh out the body of revelation in between the extremes, because there is a lot of meat there.

The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Offline dajomaco

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #149 on: November 01, 2012, 06:33:04 PM »
Micah  :thumbsup:
Nebuchednezzar sure had free will, strutting along proud of himself thinking he was master of his destiny, captain of his soul...
Till God caused him to eat grass for 7 years and lose his mind.
He changed his tune about who's in charge then. :laughing7:

IMO, The point in question in this thread is not so much, does man have "free will" as in "free from Gods action, direction and re-direction".  As I have said several times- nobody I kno is postulating that". Clearly, "all things work according to the counsel of His will."


However, the other polar extreme, "Man has NO will" is clearly questionable by the scriptures- and by no means clear within the context of all the scriptures concerning the will of man and the will of God.

How do you teach achild who has NO will anything?

Man DOES have a WILL and that WILL is to sin or just do what moves his emotions. Maybe human emotions would be a better case for the WILL of man? :sigh: :HeartThrob:

Man DOES have a WILL and that WILL is to sin or just do what moves his emotions. Maybe human emotions would be a better case for the WILL of man?

I believe that these very emotions are the reason for free will.
These emotions are not something that God had already experienced.
There are common emotions, as there are commonly ten  fingers on a hand.
Yet every finger print different.
God has recorded and is recording and feeling every emotion we( collectively
all of the seed of Adam) have ever felt .This will continue until Love,
the Love that God has defined is complete.(Yet some how it is Already completed
By Jesus on the Cross).

How do you feel about this.