Author Topic: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions  (Read 17776 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5959
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2012, 04:38:49 PM »
1Co 15:23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline dajomaco

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2012, 05:00:33 PM »
Micah......one example in the scriptures is when Peter said 'surely not Lord" and Jesus said

   'Get behind me satan, for you speak of the will of man not God"

Are you really saying here that when Peter said, "surely not Lord" that it was PETER'S very own self conceived, self driven thought and will? Well just what is the "will" of man?  Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, There is no submission to the adversary's will, as long as we are MAN we are the adversary's will. You give to much admission to the adversary. IMO.


I.M.Philosophical O. 

Satan was disarmed .Jesus knew that. Peter did not know fully.
Satan with a charming voice wispered in Peters ear," this is a test to see if you will break Gods Laws ,don't be a law breaker,remeber the other test  when
you failed and denied Jesus to the little girl by the fire,three times. Pass this test deny that you will do as the lord asks three more times.
He did as directed by satan and told the Lord, no way was he going to do what the Lord asked. To which Jesus replied get behind me Satan.

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2012, 05:00:49 PM »
you misread me Daj....God's wrath is directed toward Satan and his deceptions......

    men merely serve as 'vessels' /examples of this spirit in operation. All men shall be

  raised up in Christ...and no sin counted against them.  So what if God ..the potter ,who designed

  this exercize in good and evil. chose to teach through contrast of positive/negative in this way.

   we are all the work of His hands.

   we know that God is no respector of persons...and as all mankind has bore the image of the

 corrupt[death] so too shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt.

   it is impossible to teach by contrast if all are evil all the time..or all perfect all the time.......most of us

  are a mix of good/evil at best.[I know that in my flesh nothing good dwells there]

     Did He not bind up all men in sin? In order to show grace to all? so no flesh shall boast?










Offline dajomaco

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2012, 05:03:58 PM »
the choosing is always God's.........that is why it is written about the great deception being so

  great....that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE....EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED........

but 'everything is possible with God'  even what is impossible with men..........

     total Sovereignty

    WITH GOD....thus GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU

   it all comes down to God's will and choosing..as far as I can see.


IMO the reason we can't be deceived
By the deceiver is because he was disarmed by Jesus on the cross.

You are free to believe that God is angry or somehow displeased with you but HE IS not.
That's a deception of Satan's.
 
You can believe God has saved some of his wrath for you and Man kind in general.
But HE has not.

There are no long term consciousness to Satan's deception.
There are only short term consciousness and those are soothed a away by faith
the balm of Gilead.

Any of us can believe ANYTHING we want, but the Word of God is our counselor, by the illumniating Spirit.

I agree we have free will to believe what we want.

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5959
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2012, 05:11:36 PM »

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I decide: and my tribunal is just; because I seek not mine own choice, but the choice of the Father
which hath sent me.

Luke 22:42 Saying Father, if thou be disposed, remove this cup from me: moreover, besides not my choice, but thine, be done

Would this be a proper understanding?
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2012, 05:22:09 PM »
Micah...this jumped out  at me..reading your post.

   the seeking of the will of God..and His glory...and not our own

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5959
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2012, 05:26:29 PM »
Micah...this jumped out  at me..reading your post.

   the seeking of the will of God..and His glory...and not our own

 :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline dajomaco

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2012, 05:39:56 PM »
Cause
Noun –reason- occasion –motive-ground- case –matter.

Verb –bring about – make- occasion – produce induce.

It is also written, " The Father loves the Son because he only does those things that please the Father", "Nevertheless not my will but Yours be done", indicating that struggle in which Jesus overcame, and calls us to do the same through the provision of grace and the spirit of God-


The old man the new man.
The old man will answer the questions his way.
The new man will answer the question his way.
The questions will be answered by who we identify with the Old or The New.

Past, present and future.
 
Past ……We know that everything that has happened already is predestined.

Present…… Now not ten seconds ago. We do not know if what we think
we are about to do is predestined because it hasn't happened.

Future…. Requires faith. The new man has faith in God through the Spirit.
The Old man has faith in his powers of observation and makes a scientific
plan. But there is no scientific absolutes about the future.
The old man has faith in science for the future.
He is left with his calculations to buttress his insecurity of not knowing the future.
The anxiety created by relying on these calculations is further exasperated
by the wisdom of this world Satan.   

IMO we have the free will to be Old or New.   

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5959
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2012, 05:44:33 PM »
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline dajomaco

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2012, 05:45:58 PM »
Micah...this jumped out  at me..reading your post.

   the seeking of the will of God..and His glory...and not our own

 :dsunny:
Is it possible while seeking the will of God and not our own.
That His will and my will become One?

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2012, 06:17:59 PM »
OH YES!!!!!   And you shall see Him face to face..and when you do...YOU SHALL BE JUST LIKE HIM!!!!

Offline dajomaco

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2012, 06:20:13 PM »
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."

Senseless… Definitions- foolish, meaningless ,stupid.

 Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done."

Was not the cause of Christ the will of the Father.
When Jesus said not my will but yours to the Father.
Was Jesus making any kind of distinction?
Did the Father have a Will?
Did Jesus have a Will?
Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free will
to surrender to the Father.
   
so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard, and to everyone else, that my imprisonment is in the cause of Christ.

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2012, 06:27:06 PM »
 :eek:   can two walk togather unless they are in agreement?

   sin has it's own 'will' in our flesh...this is the bondage/slavery man in the corrupt image

  has bore..taken captive of satn  to do works[sin] which bring  death.  This is what we have all

  been bought back from[redeemed]  AND HE SHALL ACCOMPLISH IT

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2012, 06:29:47 PM »
THE CAUSE...to glorify God or yourself....Thou shall have no other gods before me

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2012, 06:38:18 PM »
Rev 22;17   The Spirit and the bride say'COME" and let him who  hears say ,'Come"....

    Whoever is thirsty let him, Come!

    and WHOEVER WISHES[desires/wants/chooses?] let him take the free gift of the water of life.

   for it is God who causes us to will and desire to do His good pleasure.

   desire is a seed...that produces fruit...there are two seeds....the serpents seed..and the promised

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5959
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2012, 06:41:50 PM »
OH YES!!!!!   And you shall see Him face to face..and when you do...YOU SHALL BE JUST LIKE HIM!!!!

 :dsunny: :happyclap:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Paul L

  • Est
  • *
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2012, 06:45:43 PM »
I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All.   :2c:

Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances.  If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.

Paul, as far as I know, I didn't "cognitively" know "going before" was the actual definition from the Greek.  But it's the best way God's led me to understand it at this point.  It leaves no one out, but it does take into account things like the elect, predestination, the order/turn, and the ultimate reconciliation, IMO.

Well, I got real curious about your wording, so I went to Strong's Concordance & checked the Greek words translated into English as "predestination" & it basically means just what you stated,  preceding before,  or preceding in front of. 4309 is formed from 4253 [fore, in front of, prior to] & 3724 [appoint, mark].

I think this casts a somewhat different light of usage of the Greek words versus  the commonly held understanding of the English definition. I guess we'll probably need to hash this one out as we move forward.........

Offline micah7:9

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 5959
  • Gender: Male
  • Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine ene
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2012, 06:50:24 PM »
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."

Senseless… Definitions- foolish, meaningless ,stupid.

 Father, if You are willing, take this cup away from Me—nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done."

Was not the cause of Christ the will of the Father.
When Jesus said not my will but yours to the Father.
Was Jesus making any kind of distinction?
Did the Father have a Will?
Did Jesus have a Will?
Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free will
to surrender to the Father.
   
so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard, and to everyone else, that my imprisonment is in the cause of Christ.

"Did the Father have a Will?"    THE Father IS the WILL.
Joh 5:19  Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

"Your post seems to make an emphatic statement that Jesus had no free will
to surrender to the Father."
Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.'

Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2012, 06:52:32 PM »
Listento me everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him unclean by going

  into him. Rather it is what comes out of a man tht makes him unclean.

  heart condition...the desire of the heart.  The heart can be deceitful..for there are two seeds

  in it.  the serpents seed deceives the heart..the promised seed leads the heart like a shepherd

  in the way of Love for the Father and fellow men. see temptation in the wilderness

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2012, 07:03:18 PM »

  it appears to me that it comes down to..which come first, the chicken or the egg...and yet we know

  we come to love Him,cause  'CAUSE" He LOVED US FIRST.  I chose you,you did NOT 'CHOOSE" me

   and if He loved us first..then we are the firstfruits of His LOVE...even a vessel of mercy....

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2012, 07:08:30 PM »
 and it is Not that we say'He loves me..and Not you...for we know that He shall gather them all under His wings

  like a hen gathers her chicks. And HE WILL SHOW HIS LOVE TO THEM..not only that...His love

  decrees that we serve as His son did..that even though we be put to death by those in ignorance

  we not count it against them..and be perfected in this suffering.

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2012, 07:08:52 PM »
"The very second that something causes one's will to do something that the person himself had not planned by an uncaused will or a will that was not influenced in any way, he ceases to have a free will. A will made to think or do anything is not free, and it is senseless to argue anything to the contrary. There is not a Scripture in the bible that presents us with a person willing something or making a choice for which there was no cause. And "caused" wills and "caused" choices are not free."

 :banana: :thumbsup:

Offline dajomaco

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1032
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2012, 07:21:53 PM »
Was Jesus making any kind of distinction?

This is just a question not an argument.

It can only become an argument (and it won't).
If we have two opposing answers so far we have no answers.

Offline CHB

  • Silver
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2012, 07:27:52 PM »
yet we are not all set free, because some of us choose to stay in prison :o) We then incur consequences, "Because you are neither cold nor hot, I will spit you out of my mouth".

What does this mean- Jesus does not love me any more? Of course not. What it does mean is that my richness is really poverty, and my tepid heart towards God makes me unfit for service.

"Except you repent I will remove your lampstand from its place"

We do not here see Jesus dealing with the churches according to predestination. We here him calling them to make decisions, "Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts".

I wonder if the difference between the views is somewhat connected to whether we are speaking of "Today", or speaking in theoretical terms of "all time"- the omniscient view of God.

To me it seems obvious that we must look from both points of view. :o)

He says "I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts"

Here John is speaking to the Jews who are under the New Covenant which still has laws attached to it. Faith, baptism, Lord's Supper, do's, don'ts etc. Which is another subject, but anytime you see works involved it sounds as if man will have to use his will to obey them.

Man's will, free will, whatever you want to call it, is nothing but works.

CHB

Offline sheila

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 3825
Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2012, 07:29:04 PM »
what about the 'FREE GIFT" in the CAUSE OF GOD'S LOVE.........I LOVE THEM OF MY OWN FREE WILL