God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions

[eaglesway]

"It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks".

When a person turns their will against God's will, they are "kicking against the pricks".

"The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways"

The correction, or "kolassis" of God often falls on the rebel soul by allowance.

"The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them. "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
(Luk 15:12-13)

'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."' "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
(Luk 15:18-20)

Here we see how the Father allows the child to exercise his will freely, and yet still the end result is the same as if He had controlled the child. The son grows into the image of Christ, wisdom, humility, devotion rise up like a phoenix out of the ashes of his rebellion, repentance found by the allowances of God, who cause all things to work according to the counsel of His will.

[jabcat]

I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All.   

[micah7:9]

" but WHERE in the Bible does it reveal that man has "a will," other than the objective of the Creator? "
Micah

[sheila]

liked that JC.

   and there ye have!  Firstborn of the dead...the proper attitude and mind of Christ....

   I am unworthy of being called your son..make me as one of your servant.

  Christ,being in the nature of the devine....did not suffer a seizure..or consider himself as equal to God

....he submitted himself as servant..and suffered in his obediance[perfection]

[eaglesway]

Since God has chosen everyone He has foreknown to be conformed to the image of Jesus, we who are foreknown in such a way rejoice and press towards the mark of the prize of the Upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

So now you get into the sticky issue of whom it is he has "foreknown"? Here we must get into predestination of course. I have a view of this, but how do you see it? Is it only the Body of Christ (Christian Church)? Don't forget, Jeremiah was never of the Body of Christ......

I was hoping someone would bring that up Paul :o) Predestination and the foreknowledge of God are about everyone and evrything that happens, IMO. I just don't think we understand how it works to well. From our lower height we seem to think that predestination and any stewardship over our own will are mutually exclusive. I do not see that as an absolute. I like to look at the word PREDESTINATION as exactly what it reads.

The DESTINATION is PRE determined. God shall be ALL IN ALL. The process is one of TEACHING and EDIFYING. We learn by the things we suffer. We choose and our choices bring accountability upon us, nevertheless- GOD IS CAUSING ALL THINGS TO WORK ACCORDING TO THE COUNCIL OF HIS WILL.

The idea that predestination, calling, election are antithetical to a stewardship and accountability over our own will is, in my opinion, a misunderstanding of HOW God accomplishes His will. His ways are higher than our ways.

I certainly do not claim to understand it all. I just trust the scriptures, and the Holy Spirit, and what I read in the word leads me to believe that number 1, it is not all that simple, - and number 2, since we don't see as God does from the height of omniscience, we must deal with one another as those who have wills to be exhorted, forgiven, resisted or assisted, edified, etc.

In other words, we cannot walk the walk from theoretical theological absolutes.

[sheila]

Micah......one example in the scriptures is when Peter said 'surely not Lord" and Jesus said

   'Get behind me satan, for you speak of the will of man not God"

[eaglesway]

If we all acknowledge that God is sovereign and His will is absolute, what if His will is that we become ABSOLUTELY FREE.

"For freedom Christ has set you free, why submit again to a yoke of bondage"

"If you continue in my word, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free"

"For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. "
(Rom 8:20-21)

Roman 8 seems to say that this is the whole purpose of everything.

[sheila]

John, I think there is only God's will..and the adversarial will[satn captive to his will]...but

  I think we can yeild or resist either one to a limited extent, these two contrary wills and natures[tokogae]

  and greater is He that is in you..than he that is in the world....showing victory/overcome

[jabcat]

liked that JC.

   and there ye have!  Firstborn of the dead...the proper attitude and mind of Christ....

   I am unworthy of being called your son..make me as one of your servant.

  Christ,being in the nature of the devine....did not suffer a seizure..or consider himself as equal to God

....he submitted himself as servant..and suffered in his obediance[perfection]

 

[jabcat]

John, I think there is only God's will..and the adversarial will[satn captive to his will]...but

  I think we can yeild or resist either one to a limited extent, these two contrary wills and natures[tokogae]

  and greater is He that is in you..than he that is in the world....showing victory/overcome

sheila, I'd never thought of that before.  John and I had talked about God's will and man's will, and how our will needs to (and will be) shaped into God's will - either now as sons, or later "as through [spiritual] fire".  Your view is interesting and will give more thought.  Thanks :)

[jabcat]

Another variation of that may be, that when we are not in/submitted to God's will, then we're "submitted" to the adversaries will - which we call "man's will" or "free will".  This does get complicated.  I think it partly depends on definitions, and certainly on variety of understanding.  I can see why there's little agreement on it (historically).   

[sheila]

  JC

[micah7:9]

Micah......one example in the scriptures is when Peter said 'surely not Lord" and Jesus said

   'Get behind me satan, for you speak of the will of man not God"

Are you really saying here that when Peter said, "surely not Lord" that it was PETER'S very own self conceived, self driven thought and will? Well just what is the "will" of man?  Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, There is no submission to the adversary's will, as long as we are MAN we are the adversary's will. You give to much admission to the adversary. IMO.

[sheila]

I believe..that when we are out of the will of the Father[do not obey] we by defall[t] become captive

 to the will of the adversary......thus the FREEDOM HE DESIRES FOR US...absolute that John spoke of.

   but none of you have resisted sin to the extent of the spilling of your blood....hmmmn

   He first washes the inside of the cup.......truth/love of the inward parts.

[eaglesway]

Micah......one example in the scriptures is when Peter said 'surely not Lord" and Jesus said

   'Get behind me satan, for you speak of the will of man not God"

Are you really saying here that when Peter said, "surely not Lord" that it was PETER'S very own self conceived, self driven thought and will? Well just what is the "will" of man?  Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, There is no submission to the adversary's will, as long as we are MAN we are the adversary's will. You give to much admission to the adversary. IMO.

Actually, IMO, more admission is given to man's will. Jesus said, "Yours is not the will of God, but the will of man". Jesus was teaching Peter, how to keep his will free of the adversary. Peter saw his dreams of ruling in an earthly renewal of Israel crumbling as Jesus testified to his coming death. This was likely the motive behind his statement.

IMO. I believe there are three wills, the heart of God, the heart of man and in the heart of the adversary. When Joshua exhorts Israel to "Choose ye this day" he was speaking to their will. When Isaiah says, "Today if you hear His voice harden not your heart", he was speaking to man's will. When Jesus said, "Nevertheless not my will but thine be done" He was speaking of man's will in relationship to God's will, and establishing a distinction between the two, since Jesus was never under the will of the adversary.

[shawn]

So our defense should be God made me do it?  While I certainly can trace back my ability to type these words to you...to God...what I write is what I write.  When I respond to another person with anger, God did not force me to do so.  Saying anything less makes us victims of God and circumstance.

Do you think it is through your own efforts that you are capable of writing? Or your own thoughts as to what you write? Well, of course it is of your own thoughts but have you ever wondered why you think the things you do?

Would it be so awful to know that God did control what we thought, or wrote?

Psalms 139 comes to mind

O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knoweest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquanted with all my ways. FOR THERE IS NOT A WORD IN MY TONGUE BUT, LO, O, LORD, THOU KNOWEST IT ALTOGETHER. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

(Verse 14-16) I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret , and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book ALL MY MEMBERS WERE WRITTEN, which in CONTINUANCE WERE FASHIONED, when as yet there was none of them.

Reading this makes me think that if God knew all about me before I was born, I believe he had to have planned everything about me "when there was none of them". 

CHB

Would it be awful to think God controlled what I think?  Yes, that would disturb me a great deal...At least my evil thoughts.  When I think impure thoughts...that is God putting those in my head?  I can't accept that.

I also don't believe foreknowledge is the same thing as micromanagement of actions.

[eaglesway]

Another variation of that may be, that when we are not in/submitted to God's will, then we're "submitted" to the adversaries will - which we call "man's will" or "free will".  This does get complicated.  I think it partly depends on definitions, and certainly on variety of understanding.  I can see why there's little agreement on it (historically).   

Yes James, I agree about it depending on the 'definitions' we have coming from different perceptions, and then trying to communicate and share in an edifying way. I think it is very important that we don't get caught up in the 'semantics' of it. These conversation often seem to run towards the 'split hairs' of the terminology. The big picture is, of course, more important.

[sheila]

..and I hear you Micah...the creature was subjected unto vanity by the will of God......

  but man does not live by bread alone..but by every word of God....and surely we know

  that it is the WILL OF GOD THAT WE OVERCOME AND BE SET FREE THROUGH CHRIST

[eaglesway]

yet we are not all set free, because some of us choose to stay in prison :o) We then incur consequences, "Because you are neither cold nor hot, I will spit you out of my mouth".

What does this mean- Jesus does not love me any more? Of course not. What it does mean is that my richness is really poverty, and my tepid heart towards God makes me unfit for service.

"Except you repent I will remove your lampstand from its place"

We do not here see Jesus dealing with the churches according to predestination. We here him calling them to make decisions, "Today, if you hear His voice, harden not your hearts".

I wonder if the difference between the views is somewhat connected to whether we are speaking of "Today", or speaking in theoretical terms of "all time"- the omniscient view of God.

To me it seems obvious that we must look from both points of view. :o)

He says "I am He that tries the reigns and the hearts"

[Paul L]

I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All.   

Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances.  If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.

[dajomaco]

the choosing is always God's.........that is why it is written about the great deception being so

  great....that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE....EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED........

but 'everything is possible with God'  even what is impossible with men..........

     total Sovereignty

    WITH GOD....thus GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU

   it all comes down to God's will and choosing..as far as I can see.

IMO the reason we can't be deceived
By the deceiver is because he was disarmed by Jesus on the cross.

You are free to believe that God is angry or somehow displeased with you but HE IS not.
That's a deception of Satan's.
 
You can believe God has saved some of his wrath for you and Man kind in general.
But HE has not.

There are no long term consciousness to Satan's deception.
There are only short term consciousness and those are soothed a away by faith
the balm of Gilead.

[jabcat]

I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All.   

Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances.  If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.

Paul, as far as I know, I didn't "cognitively" know "going before" was the actual definition from the Greek.  But it's the best way God's led me to understand it at this point.  It leaves no one out, but it does take into account things like the elect, predestination, the order/turn, and the ultimate reconciliation, IMO. 

[eaglesway]

I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All.   

Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances.  If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.

This makes perfect sense to me.

[eaglesway]

the choosing is always God's.........that is why it is written about the great deception being so

  great....that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE....EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED........

but 'everything is possible with God'  even what is impossible with men..........

     total Sovereignty

    WITH GOD....thus GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU

   it all comes down to God's will and choosing..as far as I can see.

IMO the reason we can't be deceived
By the deceiver is because he was disarmed by Jesus on the cross.

You are free to believe that God is angry or somehow displeased with you but HE IS not.
That's a deception of Satan's.
 
You can believe God has saved some of his wrath for you and Man kind in general.
But HE has not.

There are no long term consciousness to Satan's deception.
There are only short term consciousness and those are soothed a away by faith
the balm of Gilead.

Any of us can believe ANYTHING we want, but the Word of God is our counselor, by the illumniating Spirit.

[shawn]

I believe the elect are predestined [going before] - all else, destined [in their own (later) turn/order] - as God will be All in All.   

Your parenthesis piqued my imagination about something, "going before" , the Greek definition. Makes me wonder if the the English definition "predestination" means the same thing, "going before" implies being in front of something, that there is an orderly process in which some things precedes another within a specific order of occurances.  If so, that would not be the same thing as "predetermined personal events", only that events occur only in a specific time measured order. Could this be what the Apostle Paul meant by "predestination"? That the Body of Christ is the first in-line to gain the promise of salvation, with the remainder of mankind to follow according to how God has categorized them.

I agree unless you look at the context of passages surrounding predestination.  I believe that is why the translators chose the word predestination.

Romans 9

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This passage talks about active preparation...objects of wrath and mercy...and it being God's choice.  In this case I don't believe predestination is merely foreknowledge but an active creational effort.  Each of us serving a purose in this spiritual education process.