Author Topic: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions  (Read 16159 times)

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Online eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2012, 07:54:42 AM »
Did I say.........WOW!

hehe
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Offline shawn

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2012, 03:37:57 PM »
I have heard iron sharpening iron for much of my life.  I think I finally understand what it means...personally.  I believe the Holy Spirit gives us each pieces and like a meal we should be sharing them with one another...building up the body of Christ in love and knowledge.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 03:40:59 PM by shawn »

Offline shawn

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2012, 03:39:46 PM »

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2012, 04:39:34 PM »
 :dsunny:CHB :dsunny: All that i would humbly ad is "cause and effect."
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2012, 05:57:02 PM »
I firmly believe God is CREATING us in his image, have come to understand this for quite awhile now. I think this is the purpose of the trials and tribulations we go through. God gives us the bad and the good to learn and grow by.

I was thinking this morning, if we have "limited will" wouldn't that have to be apart from God while we experienced this limited will? What do we have a limited will in? How would we know when we had it?

(Psalms 39:1-9) In verse 1 David says I WILL KEEP MY MOUTH WITH A BRIDLE. It sounds as if it is David who decides to keep his mouth shut but in verse 9 he says "I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; BECAUSE THOU DIDST IT".

I believe this is the way it is all through out the scriptures. It sounds like we have a limited, or free will but when examining the whole scheme of things it all comes down to the above verses.

The brothers of Joseph thought they were acting on their own when the sold Joseph into Egypt and it seems they were but in the end of things Joseph understood that it was all in the plan of God (Gen. 50:20) "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good". 

This is the way I understand all things to be. We think and plan but God has certain things in mind and all of our planning and thinking is but a means to carry out all of His plans. We just think we are doing something to give ourselves an ego which is meant to be also. Because this is something we need to learn about as well.

CHB

Offline dajomaco

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2012, 05:59:10 PM »
I have this notion that in molecular science ,
atoms, protons that sort of thing.
That from the foundations of the earth every molecule
that exists is where it is ordained to be at given point in time.

(please let me know if I should put IMO in front of objective statements)

We have no freewill to effect these molecules,
only the ability to observe these, actions or reactions of molecules.

Once these molecules are observed .
We have one hundred percent free will to try to discover there purpose.

I ask myself, do I observe these molecules because it is only me that wants to, or does God have a purpose in mind that causes me to observe them?

Quote from: dajomaco
We have free will to search with expectations to find the purpose of God.
Gods purpose is his will. We can find  his will and say I have discovered the will of God.
God can show me his will and I can say that I have discovered the will of God.

I ask myself again, is it me or does God want me to find out his will? Does God put in in my heart and mind to search out his will?


quote author=dajomaco]
I will to speak in the first person here, God created me in His image, He has a will
I have a will. With in the back drop or scenery of Gods sovereignty
(atoms and Molecules) .I have been given the free will to discover my Purpose.
I will discover and have. That I can not discover my ultimate purpose until
I discover Gods purpose, and that his purpose was ultimate (was is and always will be).
God put in my mind and heart, when he blew life in to the dust, my desire to know
who I am. Science has proven dust ( atoms and molecules).I must search for my own identity in the unproven science of Life.   
Quote from: dajomaco
As I freely explore the purpose of God I understand he shows me more.
As he shows me more I understand that he has no Purpose for eternal torment.

Paul said "what do we have that wasn't given to us"?

CHB
We have the free will to believe in that ,which God has not given us.
Eternal Torment.

 

Quote from: dajomaco
As I freely explore the purpose of God I understand he shows me more.
As he shows me more I understand that he has no Purpose for eternal torment.

Offline dajomaco

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2012, 06:14:42 PM »
It is not important to me if everyone puts IMO in front of what they type, altho I tend to do so. However, after reading all your posts, I have seen a lot of philosophy, which does not invalidate anything anyone has said to this point but......


The word "philosophy" comes from the Greek φιλοσοφία (philosophia), which literally means "love of wisdom".

Thank you Eaglesway for recognizing the Love of wisdom in my posts  :cloud9:

Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2012, 06:30:55 PM »
...this exercize has built into i t's construction a will 'not' of the Father...adversarial will..so to speak..

 that can be examined and followed unto it's conclusion/death.   But always He has set limits

  unto the extent of the 'destructiveness' of these adverse leadings. Parameters if you will...

   this far..and no farther....'your battle was won in Him before ever the wrestling began

   Ultimately .....this whole exercize proves the truth,wisdom,righteousness and love of God..and His

  express will,AS WORTHY SOVEREIGN......

   the 'evil' part of the exercize and expierence of it PROVES GOD   AND DEFINES HIM AND ALL OF

  HIS WISDOM..POWER RIGHTEOUSNESS JUSTICE AND LOVE....AS BEING

    FAR ABOVE ALL....AND DESERVING OF ALL HONOUR AND SOVEREIGNTY OVER ALL CREATION...

    thus  A BEAUTIFUL NAME[and allthat the name entails] FOR HIMSELf

   SALVATION FROM THEWILL ADVERSE TO GOD...DELIVERANCE

   REMOVE A SPIRIT OF REBELLION FROM A SON...HAVE THEM COME INTO AGREEMENT/UNION

    SEE EYE TO EYE...HEART TO HEART..AND YOU HAVE RECONCILIATION.............ALL IN ALL

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2012, 07:24:26 PM »
I firmly believe God is CREATING us in his image, have come to understand this for quite awhile now. I think this is the purpose of the trials and tribulations we go through. God gives us the bad and the good to learn and grow by.

I was thinking this morning, if we have "limited will" wouldn't that have to be apart from God while we experienced this limited will? What do we have a limited will in? How would we know when we had it?

(Psalms 39:1-9) In verse 1 David says I WILL KEEP MY MOUTH WITH A BRIDLE. It sounds as if it is David who decides to keep his mouth shut but in verse 9 he says "I was dumb, I opened not my mouth; BECAUSE THOU DIDST IT".

I believe this is the way it is all through out the scriptures. It sounds like we have a limited, or free will but when examining the whole scheme of things it all comes down to the above verses.

The brothers of Joseph thought they were acting on their own when the sold Joseph into Egypt and it seems they were but in the end of things Joseph understood that it was all in the plan of God (Gen. 50:20) "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good". 

This is the way I understand all things to be. We think and plan but God has certain things in mind and all of our planning and thinking is but a means to carry out all of His plans. We just think we are doing something to give ourselves an ego which is meant to be also. Because this is something we need to learn about as well.

CHB

 :dsunny:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline shawn

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2012, 08:48:26 PM »
CHB, I'm still not sure where we disagree.  I believe God directs our steps, and that our limited will within God's sovereignty is muddled...mentally it can be hard to seperate out the two.  But, I truly struggle with the idea of being a puppet on a string...and pointing to God when I sin.

James 1:13 tells us this...

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Did God place us in these fragile vessels of flesh...with the deck stacked against us?  I have to believe so.  Did we have a choice in the matter?  I believe not.  But, within this world God has placed us in as our teaching ground...we must have some ability to navigate within the boundries God allows.

I have a system set up for my children.  I give them each a very healthy allowance.  But, they are responsible for taking care of all their needs and wants with that money outside of food and shelter.  I have set up a learning situation for them.  Now, some would argue the sysem I have set up for my children isn't fair...they are very young (8 and 9).  I suggest lessons learned by failure are often the most valuable.  So, when they mismanage their money and do not have finances to do the things they want, or buy the things they may need...who is to blame?  Myself who placed my children into that learning situation?  Or my children for mismanaging their money?  I have defined the boundries, I won't let them stumble too far outside of the box I have created for them.  But, they are free to roam within it...and learn from it.

Offline CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2012, 09:26:52 PM »
Hi Shawn,

Well, who brought them into this world? I could say "you did" and I would be right but it doesn't stop there. Wasn't it God who really brought them into this world? Isn't it really God who is teaching these children through you? He is indirectly dealing with your children using you. In my opinion this is what James 1:13 is saying.

I understand how hard it is to think that we don't have any control over anything. At times I find myself saying or thinking it is I doing this or that but when I get down to the nitty gritty of things I have to admit that I have no control of ANYTHING. Anything I do I can always trace it back to God.

You said:
James 1:13 tells us this...

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

It also says in Gen. 22:1 "that God did tempt Abraham".

Again, I believe God deals with us directly and indirectly. Indirectly god doesn't tempt us  but he puts obstacles and circumstances in our path to bring about the result he wants. Therefore he doesn't tempt us and "we are drawn away by our own lust" that he has instilled within us, after all we are flesh.

CHB


Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2012, 09:34:33 PM »
Hi Shawn,

Well, who brought them into this world? I could say "you did" and I would be right but it doesn't stop there. Wasn't it God who really brought them into this world? Isn't it really God who is teaching these children through you? He is indirectly dealing with your children using you. In my opinion this is what James 1:13 is saying.

I understand how hard it is to think that we don't have any control over anything. At times I find myself saying or thinking it is I doing this or that but when I get down to the nitty gritty of things I have to admit that I have no control of ANYTHING. Anything I do I can always trace it back to God.

You said:
James 1:13 tells us this...

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

It also says in Gen. 22:1 "that God did tempt Abraham".

Again, I believe God deals with us directly and indirectly. Indirectly god doesn't tempt us  but he puts obstacles and circumstances in our path to bring about the result he wants. Therefore he doesn't tempt us and "we are drawn away by our own lust" that he has instilled within us, after all we are flesh.

CHB

  :happyclap: Glory :happyclap:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline Paul L

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2012, 10:11:26 PM »
Hi Shawn,

Well, who brought them into this world? I could say "you did" and I would be right but it doesn't stop there. Wasn't it God who really brought them into this world? Isn't it really God who is teaching these children through you? He is indirectly dealing with your children using you. In my opinion this is what James 1:13 is saying.

I understand how hard it is to think that we don't have any control over anything. At times I find myself saying or thinking it is I doing this or that but when I get down to the nitty gritty of things I have to admit that I have no control of ANYTHING. Anything I do I can always trace it back to God.


Again, I believe God deals with us directly and indirectly. Indirectly god doesn't tempt us  but he puts obstacles and circumstances in our path to bring about the result he wants. Therefore he doesn't tempt us and "we are drawn away by our own lust" that he has instilled within us, after all we are flesh.

CHB

Buttressing your point:

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil & on the good & sendeth rain on the just & on the unjust" Matt 5:45 KJ

To be followed up by:

"Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine & does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house on a rock: And the rain descended & the floods came & the winds blew & beat upon that house,; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And everyone that hears these sayings of mine& does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand.....
KJ 7:24-26

Without a doubt God has planned all the storms that descended on all of mankind, to test them, just & unjust alike. Hurricane Sandy is presently descending on the just & unjust alike, we will see who even among the just may find their homes & property washed into oblivion as well as the unjust, so it is with our moral conduct & our realationship with our Father of whom those who are his children.

Basically it appears almost as if he has placed us all onto the same  interstellar space rock to observe the differences, or similarities of our conduct under the most adverse of circumstances. And while we may not like the idea of having been born here, and if God left us a choice  to either be here or not be here, this rock would never have become populated, because who really wants to live with the pain we so frequently must endure. So he has a definite plan behind all the pain we suffer which Satan & his demonic minions have never experienced.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 10:53:47 PM by Paul L »

Offline shawn

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2012, 10:34:47 PM »
Hi Shawn,

Well, who brought them into this world? I could say "you did" and I would be right but it doesn't stop there. Wasn't it God who really brought them into this world? Isn't it really God who is teaching these children through you? He is indirectly dealing with your children using you. In my opinion this is what James 1:13 is saying.

I understand how hard it is to think that we don't have any control over anything. At times I find myself saying or thinking it is I doing this or that but when I get down to the nitty gritty of things I have to admit that I have no control of ANYTHING. Anything I do I can always trace it back to God.

You said:
James 1:13 tells us this...

When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

It also says in Gen. 22:1 "that God did tempt Abraham".

Again, I believe God deals with us directly and indirectly. Indirectly god doesn't tempt us  but he puts obstacles and circumstances in our path to bring about the result he wants. Therefore he doesn't tempt us and "we are drawn away by our own lust" that he has instilled within us, after all we are flesh.

CHB

So our defense should be God made me do it?  While I certainly can trace back my ability to type these words to you...to God...what I write is what I write.  When I respond to another person with anger, God did not force me to do so.  Saying anything less makes us victims of God and circumstance.

Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2012, 11:10:44 PM »
    ... correct response imo  is God subjected me to vanity[a will contrary to His own/death]

   in order to set the whole creation free into the Glorious Freedom of the Sons of God.

   anything not of the will of the Father is vanity...=will not bear fruit/come to an end

Offline CHB

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2012, 01:35:26 AM »
Quote from: shawn
So our defense should be God made me do it?  While I certainly can trace back my ability to type these words to you...to God...what I write is what I write.  When I respond to another person with anger, God did not force me to do so.  Saying anything less makes us victims of God and circumstance.

Do you think it is through your own efforts that you are capable of writing? Or your own thoughts as to what you write? Well, of course it is of your own thoughts but have you ever wondered why you think the things you do?

Would it be so awful to know that God did control what we thought, or wrote?

Psalms 139 comes to mind

O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knoweest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquanted with all my ways. FOR THERE IS NOT A WORD IN MY TONGUE BUT, LO, O, LORD, THOU KNOWEST IT ALTOGETHER. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

(Verse 14-16) I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret , and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book ALL MY MEMBERS WERE WRITTEN, which in CONTINUANCE WERE FASHIONED, when as yet there was none of them.

Reading this makes me think that if God knew all about me before I was born, I believe he had to have planned everything about me "when there was none of them". 

CHB

Offline micah7:9

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2012, 01:47:59 AM »
I am probably somewhat ignorant, I will admit myself, but WHERE in the Bible does it reveal that man has "a will," other than the objective of the Creator? I am not foolish enough to say that
man does not make choices, yet, NOT a choice without a "cause." Something or someone brings forth an obstacle(the cause) that produces  man, whatever level of his intelligence, to make a choice.
To make a choice, there must be at least two options, the ball is in man's court, he will make a decision because of that obstacle.
If a man is NOT born again, crucified with Christ, a new creature, with the mind of Christ.....that soul is offered many options; Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

I Can Do Nothing Of Myself.......Jo.5:10  Jo.5:30  Jo.15:5 Jesus himself said, I can do nothing of my self, why does man believe that he can do anything of himself?

The entire thought that man, as a single unit, can possibly work without a CAUSE for direction IMO is just silly.
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2012, 02:06:05 AM »
Thought provoking Micah.
Since we know Jesus said he could do nothing on his own
and he also said "not my will, but yours O Father"
we could say that Jesus had free will but chose not to exercise it.
So if we choose to do something on our own not the will of the Father, it is sin.
"Whatever is not of the spirit is sin.

Just :2c:
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Online eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2012, 02:22:48 AM »
But who has said man works without a cause?  No one. "For from him and Through Him and To Him are all things". The only question, or differentiation is to whether GOD ALLOWS  man a certain latitude between one extreme (absolute control) or another (free will), that "in between" being the stewardship over his own soul that God has granted him in order to teach him how to become like the Father. In that will of man(a man determines his path) God is ALWAYS ACTIVE(but God directs his steps) and ACTIVELY TEACHING. It seems as if we are LOCKED into simple black and white understandings of things the word calls mystery, leaving no such polar extreme of understanding unchallenged.

Of course, as has been said before in the thread several times already, there is no question about the cause(God's sovereign will) and the effect(the ultimate reconciliation and restoration of all). We are simply discussing the process, and we have different views on that.

If we just stand in the extremes and parrot them without regard to the scriptures, then there is a sort of pointless dogmatism that profits no one

Remember, Although the scripture says, "I can of my own self do nothing" and "the Father in me does the works"

It is also written, " The Father loves the Son because he only does those things that please the Father", "Nevertheless not my will but Yours be done", indicating that struggle in which Jesus overcame, and calls us to do the same through the provision of grace and the spirit of God-

So, all I am saying is, there is a discussion to be had between the extremes where the real meat of the word and wisdom from above is waiting, because we know so much less than we think we do, we have so much more to learn, and we hold the keys to the unfolding revelation of God together in fellowship, in midrash, in speaking the truth in love, in the exploration of it all. :o) Peace.
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Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2012, 02:31:01 AM »
also....any choosing is not dependant on he that desires..but on God.WHO DOES THE CHOOSING..because...

     BEFORE EITHER ONE HAD DONE GOOD OR BAD........IN ORDER THAT THE CHOOSING BE GOD'S

   indeed...He holds sway over the lump..one marred in His hand..another for noble use

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2012, 02:36:36 AM »
Was Esau exhibiting free will or inadvertantly doing God's will?

Gen 25:29-34
One day, Jacob was cooking some stew, when Esau came home hungry and said, "I'm starving to death! Give me some of that red stew right now!" That's how Esau got the name "Edom." Jacob replied, "Sell me your rights as the first-born son." "I'm about to die," Esau answered. "What good will those rights do me?" But Jacob said, "Promise me your birthrights, here and now!" And that's what Esau did. Jacob then gave Esau some bread and some of the bean stew, and when Esau had finished eating and drinking, he just got up and left, showing how little he thought of his rights as the first-born.
Bingo! Prophecy fulfilled. Esau probably had no idea that he was making a choice to fulfill God's will. He probably just thought he was making a choice to fill his stomach. Nevertheless, he sold his birthright. Let's go back to the end of that last line. Here is how the King James Version rendered it:
Gen 25:34
Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.
Esau hated his birthright. Or, did he? If Esau despised his birthright, he had a funny way of showing it when he went to his father. Esau said, "My brother deserves the name Jacob, because he has already cheated me twice. The first time he cheated me out of my rights as the first-born son, and now he has cheated me out of my blessing." T
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Online eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2012, 02:48:17 AM »
People who absolutely control their children wind up with resentful, emotionally crippled adult children. A good parent learns to yield sovereignty to a child as the child's ability to govern it properly increases. This is dealt with in Galataians 4 and the result of it is seen in Romans 8. Paul talks about babes, immature, misunderstanding God's purposes and untrustworthy for the greater gifts. He also talks about mature sons, walking in the Spirit. What stewardship we have is an accountable responsibility by which God is teaching us to grow up into the Head, to be like Jesus- who is the image of God.

Deep down we all sense this responsibility to grow and we see it witnessed to over and over again in the scriptures, regardless of what our theories about how it is accomplished may be.

"As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
(Eph 4:14-15)

Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
(Rom 12:1-3)

You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures. You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"? But He gives a greater grace. Therefore it says, "GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you.
(Jas 4:3-10)

The Father earnestly desires sons and daughters into whose hands He can entrust the powers of the age to come. If Jesus learned obedience by the things He suffered, perhaps we learn also, to humble ourselves, to bring our will to God as an offering, so that as our interests align with His out of the maturing of our hearts, He in return grants us even more of freedom, along with the privileges of Sonship, which are those works which were finished from the foundation of the world. YIELD your body as a living sacrifice, DRAW NEAR to God, and He will draw near to you. SUBMIT to God.......

These verse tell only half the story, of course. The WHOLE STORY is like the two sides of a coin that must be spent in order to purchase the prized possession. For some that is knowledge, for some that is affection, for some that is the testimony that there works are counted pleasing by the Father.

Since God has chosen everyone He has foreknown to be conformed to the image of Jesus, we who are foreknown in such a way rejoice and press towards the mark of the prize of the Upward call of God in Christ Jesus.





The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.webs.com

Online eaglesway

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2012, 02:50:12 AM »
Was Esau exhibiting free will or inadvertantly doing God's will?


Perhaps both :o)

"He causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will"

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Offline sheila

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2012, 02:58:38 AM »
 the choosing is always God's.........that is why it is written about the great deception being so

  great....that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE....EVEN THE ELECT WOULD BE DECEIVED........

but 'everything is possible with God'  even what is impossible with men..........

     total Sovereignty

    WITH GOD....thus GRACE OF GOD BE WITH YOU

   it all comes down to God's will and choosing..as far as I can see.

Offline Paul L

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Re: God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2012, 03:05:48 AM »

Since God has chosen everyone He has foreknown to be conformed to the image of Jesus, we who are foreknown in such a way rejoice and press towards the mark of the prize of the Upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

So now you get into the sticky issue of whom it is he has "foreknown"? Here we must get into predestination of course. I have a view of this, but how do you see it? Is it only the Body of Christ (Christian Church)? Don't forget, Jeremiah was never of the Body of Christ......